3xranger
New Member
Sorry about the ignorance, but what the hell is WOT??? Tried following this thread and deciphering that acronym in case I ever encounter the dreaded "hard start". Thanks in advance.
Yamaha's response to "Hard Start"
- Thread starter Scott Williams
- Start date
Wide open throttle
It's the politically correct version of WFO. ::025::3xranger said:
orange rush
New Member
Tried to start it again today using a jumper battery too. Still nothing after pulling the fuse and crank with wide open throttle, re-install the fuse, crank WOT and closed throttle, nada. Supposed to be in the 50s here tomorrow and my newest bike won't start!! MamaYama's got some explaining to do. I've owned probably 40 bikes in my life (I'm old) and this is the first that I've not been able to get running.
Someone tell me again how EFI is better than a carburetor.
Chris
Someone tell me again how EFI is better than a carburetor.
Chris
This is a first that I've seen. And yeah, it would seem you've got something more going on here.orange rush said:
Are you hearing the fuel pump spin up when you turn the key?
I know there's a lot more to this than a simple carbureted system, but at the end of the day there's only fuel, air, and spark that's needed to get things going.
Interested in the outcome - and I hope you get her running soon!
scott123007
Well-Known Member
Same shit happened to my friends Tenere. WOT, removed FI fuse, nothing. I helped him push start the POS and VaVoom! I know that is not realistic for some, but that will work if you can do it.
squarebore
Well-Known Member
Re: Yamaha's response to "Hard Start"
Wide open throttle. It's a term used a lot in boating.3xranger said:
Koinz
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This is probably worth mentioning again when some of us experienced this early on.orange rush said:
On initial start, Keep a firm push on the starter button until the engine starts. Not sure why it floods so easily, but this seems to resolve the issue.
orange rush
New Member
Hooray, finally got it started!! Jumper cables connected to a good battery, tried to start after sitting over night, cranks and nothing. Pulled fuse, WOT cranked and cranked, nothing. Re-installed fuse, pump works, crank and tries to fire and then nothing. Pulled fuse again, etc. etc. etc., finally fires about three revolutions. Pulled fuse again, etc. etc. Re-installed fuse, etc. and a loud noise and vibration through the bars which turned out to be the damned thing was running!! ::012:: ::012::
I hope this is not going to be the procedure whenever I want to ride! Don't want to have to carry an extra battery in my tank bag.
Me thinks Yamaha owes me some kind of an explanation?
Now if it will start again I'm going for a ride 'cause it's in the 50s here today.
Chris
I hope this is not going to be the procedure whenever I want to ride! Don't want to have to carry an extra battery in my tank bag.
Me thinks Yamaha owes me some kind of an explanation?
Now if it will start again I'm going for a ride 'cause it's in the 50s here today.
Chris
Koinz
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Must have really been flooded. Glad you got it running. Go for a ride and clean out those cylinders ::003::orange rush said:
autoteach
New Member
the explanation for this has been given. This is common in cars, too. My Subaru does this far more than my super, I just don't crank until battery is dead, then try WOT. When it doesn't fire by the third revolution, I crack it open. They invariably fire. Also had this problem with my Blazer. Kawasaki has this problem in their watercraft. And if it doesn't fire, it needs plugs (which are expensive ones). Instead of looking for a manufacturer to provide a fix for something that can't be fixed as we don't have a sensor that can measure this condition, just twist the throttle when you should. It could be worse, like an aprilia scooter with a cold start so lean that if it doesn't fire you have to wait about an hour to try again, repeat until it fires.
orange rush
New Member
Rode about 80 miles after finally getting it started and all seemed fine. Came home and changed the oil in case there was any fuel leakage into the sump if that's possible. Gonna try a different starting procedure when the bike ends up sitting thru more of these -15 degree "Global Warming" episodes. Normally I turn on the key and let the pump build pressure as the bike goes thru it's diagnostic procedure. Gonna leave the engine stop switch off 'til right before hitting the start button and see if that helps.
I've never had any other vehicle of any kind act like this before so I don't know what the explanation is for this condition. If this is a ride by wire system, how can a wide open throttle make a computer open a butterfly, etc? You can flood an engine with a carburetor that has an accelerator pump by pumping the pedal or throttle. How's that happen with EFI?
In my 70s and still trying to learn.
Chris
I've never had any other vehicle of any kind act like this before so I don't know what the explanation is for this condition. If this is a ride by wire system, how can a wide open throttle make a computer open a butterfly, etc? You can flood an engine with a carburetor that has an accelerator pump by pumping the pedal or throttle. How's that happen with EFI?
In my 70s and still trying to learn.
Chris
Koinz
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You can flood an fi engine by simply turning the key on and off a few times. Some engines are more sensitive than others I guess, but as I mentioned before, keep firm pressure on the starter button until its running. Repeat starts when the engine is cold WILL flood it.orange rush said:
Don't ask me how I know. ::025::
Re: Yamaha's response to "Hard Start"
2 1/2 years and now 4 hard starts.
3 times from not holding the starter button in long enough for successful cold start. (only 1 incident was me starting the bike)
The 4th incident was a weak battery issue. Same result for same reason. This bike really needs to be started on first attempt when cold.
I think Ford (Ducati?) has the right idea. Their latest fly-by-wire products do not require you to hold the button or key for an appropriate time. You touch/turn the key/button and the ecu handles the rest. I assume this feature is designed just for this......to handle rich circuit starts.
2 1/2 years and now 4 hard starts.
3 times from not holding the starter button in long enough for successful cold start. (only 1 incident was me starting the bike)
The 4th incident was a weak battery issue. Same result for same reason. This bike really needs to be started on first attempt when cold.
I think Ford (Ducati?) has the right idea. Their latest fly-by-wire products do not require you to hold the button or key for an appropriate time. You touch/turn the key/button and the ecu handles the rest. I assume this feature is designed just for this......to handle rich circuit starts.
Re: Yamaha's response to "Hard Start"
A lot of cars do it. My wife has a Yaris and it does it. Anything else now she has three attempts at starting because she has to figure out when to stop instead of the car. She's not going near the S10.snakebitten said:
autoteach
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the keying has been disproven by at least two people, myself one of them. keyed on and off over 30 times with no problem. Another made a video on it.Koinz said:
Koinz
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Ok, maybe it's just a cold start issue. I know if I don't catch it the first time, it's hit and miss going forward.
Lot of theories bandied about on this. Mine is simply that the engine has marginal starting reserves with respect to engine tickover speed, ignition, battery size, starter motor size, lowered compression due to compression release, etc. and probably is calibrated over-rich at low temps. Add to this any number of contributing user-controlled factors (weak battery, interrupted previous start attempt, cycling key, slightly-fouled plugs from previous period of long idling or incomplete warmup cycle) and the systems tips over the edge to non-start in standard start sequence. And continuing cranking once the system has tipped over the edge just continues to flood the engine worse. If mine doesn't fire in 2-3 secs with a normal closed-throttle start, I go to WOT.
FWIIW, mine has had three episodes, none with any previous interruption problems, all solved by WOT. But I haven't had an episode in 18-mos. YMMV.
I wish Yamaha would fix this, but I don't think they will. It has no safety angle and it seems to bite very sporadically. Fixing it might require emissions re-certification if they mess with the cold-start enrichment map. (Rumor is that this is a $100K hit for the US market.)
- Mark
FWIIW, mine has had three episodes, none with any previous interruption problems, all solved by WOT. But I haven't had an episode in 18-mos. YMMV.
I wish Yamaha would fix this, but I don't think they will. It has no safety angle and it seems to bite very sporadically. Fixing it might require emissions re-certification if they mess with the cold-start enrichment map. (Rumor is that this is a $100K hit for the US market.)
- Mark
autoteach
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If it is solved by going WOT after 2-3 seconds of no start cranking, why would anyone spend money on fixing it? No one complained this much about carbed bikes where you had to know if you need choke, no choke, throttle, operating the choke lever, starter button, throttle...markjenn said:
My wife's bike has only done it once. It was at normal operating temperature. We had stopped on the roadside for a few minutes on a long ride at highway speeds. She started the bike, idled a few seconds, then realized she had left something undone. Stopped the bike for a minute, and then tried to start it again. No joy. WOT fixed it that time, thankfully, because it was before the FI fuse trick was known, and we were somewhere in remote BC. But I think the idea that this is limited to a cold bike issue is not something I would rely on.