Yamaha's response to "Hard Start"

[Scott Williams]

Just spoke about the HARD START problem with a Yamaha Customer Service rep. She told me she had never heard about it. She then put me on hold for 10 minutes and said "there are no known calls regarding this issue. Yamaha is not aware of it". I told her there were 2 or 3 threads on this board, with over 100 posts, about it for a period of well over a year. I asked why those interested in sales or customer satisfaction are not reading various forums to see what owners are experiencing? She replied there are but a few of the Hard Start problems, while they sell thousands of bikes without it. I asked her if every sale mattered and what it might feel like if I were on a Latin America trip and the bike wouldn't start for a few days. (that's why I am interested in buying this bike). I asked "how big does the problem have to be before Yamaha takes an interest?" She said she would put it in her month-end report and more responsible personnel would read it. Heck, they don't even read forums. She finally said that if she heard anything, she would e-mail me. I will wait for Yamaha to contact me before plunking down hard-earned cash. Is lack of concern for customer satisfaction prevalent in corporate America these days? Are corporate heads trained to just "yes" you, and not address the issue? I would think that with the economy doing as poorly as it is, market share would be at the top of the list and everyone on the payroll would take these things seriously. My 2 cents. Thanks, Scott

 

[20valves]

I think Yamaha is giving it all the attention it deserves. ::021::

 

[markjenn]

I think they do know about it and they do read the forums, at least a little bit. But they don't react to anything unless it gets to be a major problem.

Yamaha is behaving like most vehicle mfgs when facing a problem like this - deny it, unless the problem is big enough you feel you need to engineer a fix. In this particular case, the fix is probably almost certainly going to require a recall to replace the ECU programming, which would be many hundreds of dollars for each bike plus the cost of developing the fix distributed across a fairly small number of bikes. And it would probably require re-certifying the bike for emissions which is about a $100K hit for the US market alone. Yamaha is very financially challenged right now and sales are still in the dumper, so they probably don't have the resources to fix a problem which affects such a small number of customers and for which reasonable workarounds are widely known.

The mfg gains nothing by acknowledging a problem if they don't plan on fixing it. So they stonewall. Yes, this is pretty much how big corporations behave.

I think getting something published in the major magazines about this problem might tip the balance. The tipping point on the FJR valve-ticking issue seemed to be when it was published in Cycle World. At this point, Yamaha did acknowledge that a small minority of bikes had the problem and that they would fix the problem by installing new/improved valve guide seals free of charge if a customer was having the issue on a case-by-case basis. But they didn't issue a recall, mainly because there was no safety angle. In the case of the hard-start issue, they may not have a handle on the problem as it is subtle and intermittent.

- Mark

 

[Dallara]

~


Wow...

Ya' know, if I had ever worried about the *supposed* "hard start" problem I would have not have so thoroughly enjoyed the past 22 months of literally trouble-free 30,000 miles on one of the best motorcycles I have ever owned. In all that time I've *NEVER* had the "hard start" problem, and as has been pointed out in many of those threads alluded to, it may very well be a *operator error* and not a problem with the bike itself at all. There is just as much evidence to support that premise as there is to suggest it is somehow a defect with the motorcycle. Funniest of all is how the vast majority, if not all, of the "hard start" incidents have happened in the owner's driveways or garages...

I certainly wouldn't let what really is a small sample of purely anecdotal and disparate reports convince me to avoid purchasing a Super Tenere...

I mean really, then what "adventure" bike are you gonna' buy? A BMW? What of the thousands of *DOCUMENTED* instances of final drive failures and other problems, many of them denied and ignored by BMW corporate for years? Maybe a KTM? Just a short perusal of a couple of forums will illustrate a myriad of major failures with pictures of busted parts, etc., many of which KTM ignores. And let's not forget their current situation of having a bike in dealers' hands that can't be sold because KTM hasn't supplied the special tool necessary to "activate" the bike's software!!!

I've only had one warranty claim on my S-10... The headlamp sub-harness. At first Yamaha said they had never heard of it, but if you check you'll see mine might very well have been the first to have the problem. Even though they said they hadn't seen the issue reported before they responded quickly and replaced the harness at no charge to me.

What more could you ask?

Dallara



~

 

[snakebitten]

The "hard start" issue is what it is.

But I am amazed that it can be propped up to be a purchasing decision issue.
What post in which thread raised it to that level in your mind?

Truth is that Tenere forums and threads are often described as boring. There is a reason.

 

[Rasher]

::021::

Rare event, easy to avoid and as pointed out has never happened to anyone more than 3 foot from their own house, and if it does happen WOT sorts it 90% of the time.

I see on the UK GS Forums several have already been returned to the dealer on the back of a breakdown truck, many more have indicators and hazard lights that turn themselves on and off and BMW have already made 3 recalls on a bike less than 3 months old, but that seems fairly good compared to the car world right now where millions of cars are being recalled due to far more serious faults.

I would rather Yamaha concentrated on moving the display buttons to the handlebar and working on getting two heated grips to a similar temperature

 

[HoebSTer]

Scott, I think there has been too much time trying to find a fault for this bike instead of reading what it does well. Almost all of the no start issues are caused from people starting bike, running for a second or ten, then shutting off for days or weeks on end. Problem is fixed with a WOT application and ride on.
If this little thing is preventing you from buying, I don't think this no start thing is the reason you aren't buying. You may have to look deeper into whether or not buying a bike now is what you really want to do. I could be off, but it sure seems that way from what I have read on your post.
IN the mean time, I will go ride the hell out of mine.

Enjoy your decision!!!!

Jeff

 

[jaeger22]

I agree that it is not a big issue, especially if you know of it and what to do when it occurs. But I take exception to implying that it might be *operator error*. For most if not all of us, starting consists of pushing the magic button and not much more. Kind of hard to mess up. I have personally experienced it twice in 16K miles. Both times I went to WOT and cranked and it eventually came to life. So it does not worry me a lot.
When it first happened I only had a couple of K miles on it and it did worry me. So I tried hard to reproduce it so I could trouble shoot it, but could not make the problem appear. I tried every listed scenario several times. I tried turning the key on and off 10 times before starting, then 15 times. Still no problem. Until two days ago when it did it again. Yes in my drive way. Exactly the same way as far as I can tell that I started it the last few hundred times. And again, going to WOT and cranking about 5 seconds made it start.
I replaced the plugs yesterday so while I had the air filter off I experimented to see what the butterflys actually did when I twisted the throttle to WFO while starting. They do continue to open as I open the throttle with the ignition turned on. But only to about 1/4 or so max. It is proportional to the throttle position but over a limited range to a small opening if that makes sense.
Also as i have posted before, I did a EFI conversion on my DR-650 using a Micro Squirt ECU and Ebay sourced parts. It was a learning experience to say the least. : I only bring it up in that as part of programing the ECU, their is a function you can enable called flood clear. It detects WOT during starting and assumes you are trying to clear the flood condition. So it cuts fuel. Of course I have no visibility into the S10 ECU code but I think those smart engineers at Yamaha may have included that function in our bikes. All I know it has worked 100% of the time but the sample size is small. 2
I believe it is a bug in the code that only shows in very very rare conditions. But it is rare and so far in my experience easy to fix.
Just my 2 cents.
John ::001::

 

[MurphCO]

A friend asked me what the major problems have been with the bike so far because he was thinking of buying a Tenere



I read this forum every day, and I couldn't come up with anything.....my only comment to him was that the stock seat sucks and leans forward




Lots of opinions on what would make the bike better, but nothing else.....even the seat is an opinion

 

[GrahamD]

Just spoke about the HARD START problem with a Yamaha Customer Service rep. She told me she had never heard about it. She then put me on hold for 10 minutes and said "there are no known calls regarding this issue. Yamaha is not aware of it". I told her there were 2 or 3 threads on this board, with over 100 posts, about it for a period of well over a year. I asked why those interested in sales or customer satisfaction are not reading various forums to see what owners are experiencing? She replied there are but a few of the Hard Start problems, while they sell thousands of bikes without it. I asked her if every sale mattered and what it might feel like if I were on a Latin America trip and the bike wouldn't start for a few days. (that's why I am interested in buying this bike). I asked "how big does the problem have to be before Yamaha takes an interest?" She said she would put it in her month-end report and more responsible personnel would read it. Heck, they don't even read forums. She finally said that if she heard anything, she would e-mail me. I will wait for Yamaha to contact me before plunking down hard-earned cash. Is lack of concern for customer satisfaction prevalent in corporate America these days? Are corporate heads trained to just "yes" you, and not address the issue? I would think that with the economy doing as poorly as it is, market share would be at the top of the list and everyone on the payroll would take these things seriously. My 2 cents. Thanks, Scott

What Mark says is typical of what happens. IF owners were dumping bikes at dealers and complaining AND they had the problem there as well MANY TIMES then they would probably be looking at it.

But if you say go with Tigers you will end up with some "stalling issues. oil leaks rattle bits. bouncy front wheels etc"
BMW switched, recalls, possible head shakes, starter motor problems..
Ducati fuel caps, backs brakes that don't work DES errors etc.

YAMAHA is one one of the the ones that has less problems over all. So far I have never had a hard start without trying hard. It's a flooding problem and it is cured 90% of the time by sorting it out early and in the same manner it was always sorted out. WOT.

I had a hesitant start out on the road ONCE and it cleared easily.

It is one of the funny things in this world. Seems the more people pay the more crap they have to, and are prepared to, put up with. Maybe YAMAHA should just raise the price 10 grand and introduce a few more faults.

You have bought it to their attention. That's good. Maybe when the team of engineers are cycled back around to the S10 they will have a look at it.

But just bear in mind that the grass over the other side is not as green. It would be good of they made a perfect bike.

What I find bizarre is reading other bikes threads and looking at all the excuses put forward and then I get back to a YAMAHA thread any problem seems to be the end of the world. Its an interesting statement on buyer psychology.

I am sure someone has done a paper on it.

 

[Twisties]

I like the bike. If it were today, I would have to look at the new GS and the upcoming KTM just to see what's new. But for my purchase two years ago, and again last summer for my wife, it was the best thing out there for us, and no regrets. That said, she has hard the hard start thingy once, and I have had it three times (a little more than 30k combined miles). Three times WOT has sufficed to get the bike going in reasonably short order... a nuisance. Even so, a little scary when it happened in the middle of nowhere in remote B.C. last summer, and if not for this forum and being prepared for it (knowing about WOT), it could have been much worse.

Then, one of those times it was very difficult to start. Took hooking it up to a charger and about 20 minutes of cranking. If that had happened on the road it would have been a tow truck event.

I would have to say that it is not a safety issue, beyond the risks of a potentially disabled vehicle, but it is certainly an annoyance and a flaw in the bike's operation that should be addressed by the manufacturer.

 

[dcstrom]

what it might feel like if I were on a Latin America trip and the bike wouldn't start for a few days. (that's why I am interested in buying this bike).

Scott,

I had the hard start issue when the bike was a few thousand miles old. Mine was one of the early US deliveries and no one yet had a definitive treatment for the issue. Fortunately it happened in my back yard... I ran the battery down twice and had to recharge before it finally caught, spewed a lot of black smoke and thereafter ran and started normally as if nothing had happened.

I was concerned because like you, I had bought the bike for a latin america trip. I reported the problem to the dealer and to the area sales rep. No idea whether they passed my complaint up the line.

Now I'm in Ecuador, 26,000 miles into the trip, and the bike has been practically perfect. No hard starts either, but if it was to happen I know how to deal with it now and so very confident it won't be a problem.

In short, it's not a reason to not buy the bike. She is a beauty!

Trevor

 

[creggur]

Just spoke about the HARD START problem with a Yamaha Customer Service rep. She told me she had never heard about it. She then put me on hold for 10 minutes and said "there are no known calls regarding this issue. Yamaha is not aware of it". I told her there were 2 or 3 threads on this board, with over 100 posts, about it for a period of well over a year. I asked why those interested in sales or customer satisfaction are not reading various forums to see what owners are experiencing? She replied there are but a few of the Hard Start problems, while they sell thousands of bikes without it. I asked her if every sale mattered and what it might feel like if I were on a Latin America trip and the bike wouldn't start for a few days. (that's why I am interested in buying this bike). I asked "how big does the problem have to be before Yamaha takes an interest?" She said she would put it in her month-end report and more responsible personnel would read it. Heck, they don't even read forums. She finally said that if she heard anything, she would e-mail me. I will wait for Yamaha to contact me before plunking down hard-earned cash. Is lack of concern for customer satisfaction prevalent in corporate America these days? Are corporate heads trained to just "yes" you, and not address the issue? I would think that with the economy doing as poorly as it is, market share would be at the top of the list and everyone on the payroll would take these things seriously. My 2 cents. Thanks, Scott

You're complaining about Yamaha's customer service...but you're not a customer.

And do you really think engineers sit around reading hundreds of pages of forum speculation as research for product improvement?

This is possibly the most asinine post I've ever read on any forum...ever. No, I mean in the history of forum posts you may have actually reached the Holy Grail. Congratulations!

 

[MurphCO]

What if he is a Yamaha engineer trolling forums looking for feedback on how bad the hard start problem is?



Mind blown

 

[tpak]

Ditto. My experience and thoughts are/is nearly the same. I thought people were making a big todo about nothing but when it happened the first time it was frustrating - and I knew about the issue by then and the WOT cure by then. I ran the battery down even with the WOT trick - WOT did not work that time. That was not pilot error, I know how to operate the throttle and start switch, that was BS - I tried WOT repeatedly - bottom line the bike should have f'ing started somewhere along the damn way before the battery died. Eventually after the battery recharged I pulled the FI fuse and got it going. Second time it happened, WOT did it in about 20 seconds of cranking. The FI fuse trick will be my goto if this happens in the field and WOT doesn't solve it quickly.

The folks that have not experienced this all think it is all pilot error, but this should not happen. Luckily the cure(s) are simple and can be executed anywhere.

That being said, I'm with DCstrom - I wouldn't let this get in the way.

And yes, I reported it to Yamaha - called the CS number in the back of the manual - they claimed ignorance. But I doubt they track this stuff closely enough to see a pattern or disseminate it around the CS department.

My 2 cents.
Chris

I agree that it is not a big issue, especially if you know of it and what to do when it occurs. But I take exception to implying that it might be *operator error*. For most if not all of us, starting consists of pushing the magic button and not much more. Kind of hard to mess up. I have personally experienced it twice in 16K miles. Both times I went to WOT and cranked and it eventually came to life. So it does not worry me a lot.
When it first happened I only had a couple of K miles on it and it did worry me. So I tried hard to reproduce it so I could trouble shoot it, but could not make the problem appear. I tried every listed scenario several times. I tried turning the key on and off 10 times before starting, then 15 times. Still no problem. Until two days ago when it did it again. Yes in my drive way. Exactly the same way as far as I can tell that I started it the last few hundred times. And again, going to WOT and cranking about 5 seconds made it start.
I replaced the plugs yesterday so while I had the air filter off I experimented to see what the butterflys actually did when I twisted the throttle to WFO while starting. They do continue to open as I open the throttle with the ignition turned on. But only to about 1/4 or so max. It is proportional to the throttle position but over a limited range to a small opening if that makes sense.
Also as i have posted before, I did a EFI conversion on my DR-650 using a Micro Squirt ECU and Ebay sourced parts. It was a learning experience to say the least. : I only bring it up in that as part of programing the ECU, their is a function you can enable called flood clear. It detects WOT during starting and assumes you are trying to clear the flood condition. So it cuts fuel. Of course I have no visibility into the S10 ECU code but I think those smart engineers at Yamaha may have included that function in our bikes. All I know it has worked 100% of the time but the sample size is small. 2
I believe it is a bug in the code that only shows in very very rare conditions. But it is rare and so far in my experience easy to fix.
Just my 2 cents.
John ::001::

 

[creggur]

What if he is a Yamaha engineer trolling forums looking for feedback on how bad the hard start problem is?



Mind blown

Whoooaa....

 

[True Grip]

We have become a spoiled people!

 

[X5]

If a rider says they have a hard start problem then it is a problem, period. Why fight them and elude that they are nuts or its rider error just to protectively refute a potential bike dependent problem? How does it hurt to explore the issue, support our fellow S10ers and maybe contribute to a solution? While I am usually the first to rip whiners a new hole, this is different in my opinion.

 

[Dallara]

If a rider says they have a hard start problem then it is a problem, period. Why fight them and elude that they are nuts or its rider error just to protectively refute a potential bike dependent problem? How does it hurt to explore the issue, support our fellow S10ers and maybe contribute to a solution? While I am usually the first to rip whiners a new hole, this is different in my opinion.

Check the original post...

The poster doesn't even own a Super Tenere. Needless to say he has never, not even once, experienced a "hard start" problem, yet he's whining pretty emphatically about it - and Yamaha.

How constructive is that? :question:

Dallara



~

 

[20valves]

What if he is a Yamaha engineer trolling forums looking for feedback on how bad the hard start problem is?

Troll for sure. He's from Honduras, they don't even allow Yamahas there.