Why is the power restricted in gears 1,2,3 ?

[Tremor38]

A lot of interesting speculation in this thread. It's probably a combo of "all of the above".

It is pretty common for the mfgs to do some last-minute shenanigans to the tuning of a bike to get the bike comfortably under emissions and noise restrictions. And Yamaha may be anticipating future ratcheting down of regs. If they can produce a bike now that meets the future regs without modification later, then potentially they can save a lot of money. Same with building a single basic tune that can meet the differing regs of various markets - different regs that may vary in stringency in different areas. I see a lot of things in the S10 which strike me as watching the proverbial bottom-line for costs very closely so the bike can maintain a cost advantage over the competition in a time where the exchange rates are not favorable to Japanese products. This may be one of them.

Could Yamaha have gotten this bike past noise and emissions regs w/o the restriction? Probably yes, but it might cost more money long-term.

With today's fly-by-wire throttles, there is also a good rationale for doing this sort of restriction simply to make the bike more controllable for the intended market. With many of today's super-powerful bikes, there is almost no point in providing full power in the lower gears as most riders simply can't put the power to the ground - they either get wheelspin or a wheelie. Now the S10 makes pretty modest power and putting a full 90 RWHP to the ground in the first three gears seems pretty reasonable to me, but Yamaha may feel differently.

If you're ruthlessly practical about it, about the only thing having prodigious power in the lower gears does for you is jerk your arms harder - there really aren't very many places where you can use 90-hp in 1st gear in a practical way. Where big power pays off is in high-speed work where you want to get good acceleration doing 80+ mph and/or using the power to tackle loads/grades - in these situations, presumably you're in a higher gear and the restriction doesn't apply. I'm not terribly bothered by the restriction, although I wish it wasn't there.

In a lesser way, this strikes me about like the 186 mph top speed limiter on superbikes like the Busa and ZX14. Do I like the electronic nanny that the mfg has put there to protect me from myself? No. Practically speaking, is it enough of a real problem in everyday use of the bike that I'm going to go to any trouble to remove it. No.

But.... if we get a good US-based distributor of the mod, independent testing shows the mod works well and has no bad side effects, and the costs come down, I'll probably be a player.

- Mark

Agreed on most points. Learning about the limitation is definitely what set the wheels in motion for me.

If I were allowed to own more than one bike with this overseas military license, this would be less of an issue. In my present situation, I love having the opportunity to switch to a 'sportier' sports mode when the environment is conducive to that. I'm thinking that some people are missing the mark by a bit when they talk about this mod in terms of absolute power. Most of the power increases from this mod come in a very usable range. We ride in these ranges the majority of time so you'd feel the mod on a daily basis. As far as loads/grades are concerned, what gear you select would obviously be dependent upon how steep that load/grade is and whether you are riding 2-up, etc. Granted, canyon climbing with hairpin turns wouldn't be where most people would be spending the majority of riding time.

I do agree this mod is more of a 'want' than a need. My 'want' is pretty strong though. ::025:: I like the idea of my right hand being the 'nanny' via mode switch or throttle if the situation dictates. 8)

 

[Rasher]

I doubt it is emmisions, typically these are tested in one gear, so why restrict the first three?

Also why restrict them more and more the lower you go???


Kawasaki did this on early ZZR 1400's, in 1st you only got 10% throttle until 6000rpm, even 4th was significantly restricted and reducing torque by about 40% at 4,000rpm.

Their excuse was to make it safer for novice riders, now why having the power of a 125 up until 6000rpm and then instantly unleashing another 100BHP in an instant was safer I will never understand, on the road the bike was horrible, at 40-50mph you needed to change down 4 gears and slip the clutch to overtake - just like you would on a 250cc stroker. Once the secondary flies were put in the bin and the bike remapped you could ride along in any gear at any speed and overtake on a whiff of throttle - seemed far safer and easier to control to me.

The Yamaha has the same problem here, I don't think anyone needs 90+ BHP in 1st, but I need reliable stomp in all gears and what these stupind restrictions do is make the bike unpredictable, you end up changing down just to find no more power than you had in the higher gear, overtakes become more dangerous, fuel consumption is worse as you have to rev the bike mercilessly to get any Oomph.

I do a lot of two-up and like visitingthe Alps, here you are often using 1st - 3rd for miles on end and coming out of tight hairpin just off idle in 2nd gear you want the bike to pull, not bog down and require a change into 1st and a load of clutch slip to get going again.

Shame on Yamaha, if S1000RR's, Hayabusa's, ZX10R's can get through emmissions with 200BHP then I can't see whay Yamaha could not get the Tenere through - especially when you consider BMW's 80 year old air cooled Boxer twin engine manages to do so without such restrictions.

 

[hANNAbONE]

...agree with both of you Tremor & MarkJenn...good stuff here.

 

[spasm]

I doubt it is emmisions, typically these are tested in one gear, so why restrict the first three?

Also why restrict them more and more the lower you go???


Kawasaki did this on early ZZR 1400's, in 1st you only got 10% throttle until 6000rpm, even 4th was significantly restricted and reducing torque by about 40% at 4,000rpm.

Their excuse was to make it safer for novice riders, now why having the power of a 125 up until 6000rpm and then instantly unleashing another 100BHP in an instant was safer I will never understand, on the road the bike was horrible, at 40-50mph you needed to change down 4 gears and slip the clutch to overtake - just like you would on a 250cc stroker. Once the secondary flies were put in the bin and the bike remapped you could ride along in any gear at any speed and overtake on a whiff of throttle - seemed far safer and easier to control to me.

The Yamaha has the same problem here, I don't think anyone needs 90+ BHP in 1st, but I need reliable stomp in all gears and what these stupind restrictions do is make the bike unpredictable, you end up changing down just to find no more power than you had in the higher gear, overtakes become more dangerous, fuel consumption is worse as you have to rev the bike mercilessly to get any Oomph.

I do a lot of two-up and like visitingthe Alps, here you are often using 1st - 3rd for miles on end and coming out of tight hairpin just off idle in 2nd gear you want the bike to pull, not bog down and require a change into 1st and a load of clutch slip to get going again.

Shame on Yamaha, if S1000RR's, Hayabusa's, ZX10R's can get through emmissions with 200BHP then I can't see whay Yamaha could not get the Tenere through - especially when you consider BMW's 80 year old air cooled Boxer twin engine manages to do so without such restrictions.

::026::

 

[markjenn]

I doubt it is emmisions, typically these are tested in one gear, so why restrict the first three?

I don't think the tests are one gear.

My understanding is that these tests run the motorcycle through a "cycle" of typical riding on the dyno. This would include startup, an urban test cycle, and a highway test cycle. This is done on a dyno where the operator is following a "script" of speeds and gears operating the engine in a manner consistent with recommendations in the OM and with normal operating practices.

- Mark

 

[GrahamD]

Shame on Yamaha, if S1000RR's, Hayabusa's, ZX10R's can get through emmissions with 200BHP then I can't see whay Yamaha could not get the Tenere through - especially when you consider BMW's 80 year old air cooled Boxer twin engine manages to do so without such restrictions.

Mark is welcome to lay waste to my ass if I am wrong here but..

The S1000 has all kinds of nanny stuff going on as well, Latest Ninja is the same ASFAIK, This 200HP is only available when the ECU determines that it is possible.

As far as BMW goes, That boxer you mention is a very different motor than the eighty year old one. All that it has in common is the piston arrangement.

So if you want to dump on YAMAHA like that, then that is your choice but you will spend your life swapping brands and models being very angry.
It's not a good way to spend your life.

My last two bikes and my probable next one all have these things going on to different degrees.

Just like Mark said, it if bothered me that much I would get it fixed. On the 650 it did, on the 1000 It's further down my priority list.

As far as I am concerned, The big difference between the nanny stuff and me, is that the nanny stiff doesn't have brain fade, bad days and suffer fatigue and forgetfulness. So if I have really hard knobbies installed on a wet day and forget that on the tarmac the grip is way below what I have assumed then it will probably save my ass.

YAMAHA has gone for a lot of safe options here, just as many manufacturers do, and I don't see what YAMAHA is doing here as out of the ordinary. The bike as a package is better than my current ride all over the place, and I suppose it is normal in a relationship to start concentrating on the little irritations after a while, but the big picture for me is that it is a good thing overall.

As well as all the above, any manufacturer has to make decisions on a first model that it assumes are typical of the Average Joe OR Jo buying the bike, I think In YAMAHA's case it may have decided that more owners would be pipe and slipper occasional rider types with a few RTW types thrown in to the mix. The gen two is rumored to be a bit less pipe and slippers so maybe they are were a bit surprised with what people are doing on this bike and have taken that on board.

 

[Tremor38]

Mark is welcome to lay waste to my ass if I am wrong here but..

The S1000 has all kinds of nanny stuff going on as well, Latest Ninja is the same ASFAIK, This 200HP is only available when the ECU determines that it is possible.

As far as BMW goes, That boxer you mention is a very different motor than the eighty year old one. All that it has in common is the piston arrangement.

So if you want to dump on YAMAHA like that, then that is your choice but you will spend your life swapping brands and models being very angry.
It's not a good way to spend your life.

My last two bikes and my probable next one all have these things going on to different degrees.

Just like Mark said, it if bothered me that much I would get it fixed. On the 650 it did, on the 1000 It's further down my priority list.

As far as I am concerned, The big difference between the nanny stuff and me, is that the nanny stiff doesn't have brain fade, bad days and suffer fatigue and forgetfulness. So if I have really hard knobbies installed on a wet day and forget that on the tarmac the grip is way below what I have assumed then it will probably save my ass.

YAMAHA has gone for a lot of safe options here, just as many manufacturers do, and I don't see what YAMAHA is doing here as out of the ordinary. The bike as a package is better than my current ride all over the place, and I suppose it is normal in a relationship to start concentrating on the little irritations after a while, but the big picture for me is that it is a good thing overall.

As well as all the above, any manufacturer has to make decisions on a first model that it assumes are typical of the Average Joe OR Jo buying the bike, I think In YAMAHA's case it may have decided that more owners would be pipe and slipper occasional rider types with a few RTW types thrown in to the mix. The gen two is rumored to be a bit less pipe and slippers so maybe they are were a bit surprised with what people are doing on this bike and have taken that on board.

Not much more I can say but agree most points. With the example of hard rubber knobbies on a wet surface, I'd say the TC has that covered. If you are usining that example from a power restriction angle I'm not so sure I agree. An extra nanny for the 'TC off' crowd would seem a bit over the top. I'm sticking with the emissions angle as the primary reason, be it for noise or exhaust.

 

[GrahamD]

I'm sticking with the emissions angle as the primary reason, be it for noise or exhaust.

So am I, but the TC seems to a bit sus under a certain speed, did you see the vid of the guy in the alps who lost it with TC on. Makes me think that we need a few more pulse per rotation to handle that bit and maybe more processing power again.

Anyway, I think YAMAHA may be playing it a bit safer than even the Japanese usually do. Probably suffering a bit from first release anxiety.

Where I live I save around $7K on the equivalent Euro Brand so I have no problem spending a bit to 'customise' things to my tastes if and when needed.

At least I get to spend the $7K how I wish and most of the possible "issues" are peripheral to the main part of the bike.

One day I hope to see some crazy mofo do a full blown cam, compression, ECU swapp out just to see how much the engine will take and for how long before it detonates into lots of pieces.

Always good to see what the limits are when someone else is paying for it.

 

[Tremor38]

So am I, but the TC seems to a bit sus under a certain speed, did you see the vid of the guy in the alps who lost it with TC on. Makes me think that we need a few more pulse per rotation to handle that bit and maybe more processing power again.

No, I didn't. Is it on you tube? Was he in TC2 and 'actin like a foo?'

One day I hope to see some crazy mofo do a full blown cam, compression, ECU swapp out just to see how much the engine will take and for how long before it detonates into lots of pieces.

Always good to see what the limits are when someone else is paying for it.

Yes, and I prefer to watch that through binoculars or on a video 8) Undoubtedly somebody with nothing but money and time on their hands will try it someday.

 

[Tremor38]

OK, just saw the alps video. I'm not so sure it was possible for any TC to save that. The OP's statement seems consistent with what I saw.

Even the traction control (which normallly works perfectly with little slides) couldn't help it because the tire instantly started sliding sideways. The tarmac was dry and clean, but very smooth.

 

[Rasher]

My point on the BMW was not the engine was exactly the same as it was 80 years ago, but it is still an air cooled motor, generally considered far more difficult to get through emmissions and it currently still manages to do so, therefore getting the more modern Yamaha with its liquid cooling and superior head design through should not have been hard.

Perhaps it is also safety, but with TC I still can't really see the need to restrict it so badly, and in a way that makes two-up toruing on twisty roads so much less enjoyable - unless they thought all the pipe and slippers owners would not venture past the local "bike night" meeting place?

Simple enough fix, and if it was available locally I would have probably bought the bike by now, the issue is having to send it abroad, even insured the hassle factor of it going missing is immense, and it seems the outfit are slow to communicate so I would worry about being off the road for weeks while it sits in their workshop.

And now people are already talking of a Mk2 bike, perhaps I should wait for one of those, maybe the Mk1 was just prototype testing at the expense of the owners who bought this first model, they will see we hate the restriction, complain about the weight and prefer larger luggage (that does not fall off) and put all that free R&D into the next bike.

I am now waiting to try the new Triumph and Honda before making nay final decisions (unless an S10 appears at the right price in the mean time or someone wants to swop one for my GS)

 

[Desert Dave]

If it wasn't all beaten to death here I doubt anyone would come out and say " Gee the bike sure has lots more power above 3rd gear" Not a noticable issue at all.

Actually, that was my exact impression on my test ride. The bike I rode to the show was a DL1000, powerful but not what I would call fast in todays motorcycle world, so that was my immediate point of comparison. I felt the bike unresponsive around town but a higher gear roll on made me wonder if the turbo kicked in. I knew nothing of the restriction at the time, and after reading about it later it all made sense to me. I'm glad I found out about the restriction and the ability to get rid of it as this has a huge impact on my buying decision.

 

[Tremor38]

Actually, that was my exact impression on my test ride. The bike I rode to the show was a DL1000, powerful but not what I would call fast in todays motorcycle world, so that was my immediate point of comparison. I felt the bike unresponsive around town but a higher gear roll on made me wonder if the turbo kicked in. I knew nothing of the restriction at the time, and after reading about it later it all made sense to me. I'm glad I found out about the restriction and the ability to get rid of it as this has a huge impact on my buying decision.

Yes, definitely. I remembered the same thing driving away from the deale for the first time. In that stop-n-go and generally slow traffic, the power and response in the lower gears felt kind of newtered for a 1200cc bike. I felt a distinct difference in S mode, 3rd gear, where most of the restriction is gone...and of course 4th, 5th and 6th.

 

[Rasher]

I am sure on faster roads it may not even be noticeable, for me a lot of riding is two up on tight and twisty mountain roads or narrow lanes, this is where these restrictions really show up and can ruin a ride, if there was not a fix I would definately not buy a Tenere.

Before I knew about this I did ride one and noticed what at the time seemed "odd" behaviour where it cometimes felt really grunty but occasionally seemed to stumble, at the time I thought it was fuelling and after time I would get used to how to open the throttle to avoid it - now I know better it makes sense, but as I was on a short test ride and did not have time to ride to any mountains I am glad I found out here the exact nature, I would have been peeved to get to the Alps and find problems.

I remember a magazine launch test where they said it was breathless down low at altitude- again someone noticing the symptoms but not realising the cause was not the altitude, but the combination of tighter roads and the stupid restrictions.

 

[GrahamD]

Anyone worried about the restriction at least ride the bike and give it a go. Maybe I'm just not used to high HP bikes, but to me the bike is darn quick. If it wasn't all beaten to death here I doubt anyone would come out and say " Gee the bike sure has lots more power above 3rd gear" Not a noticable issue at all.

Well it does come up in tests damn close or faster than than the competition, One review tested faster than the MTS up to 60mph.

So the YAMAHA may be restricted but still manages to run with everything else up to 90-100km/h. Fair enough if it just means you want it to be even faster but It's not actually slow at all in a drag, It's the top end where the others pull away a bit.

Secondly, is the YCCT feeding in the power in low gears, or is it actually low constantly.
How long does a motor spend on the dyno in each gear?

Some inertial drum machines seem to wind up fairly fast.

 

[Desert Dave]

Well it does come up in tests damn close or faster than than the competition, One review tested faster than the MTS up to 60mph.

So the YAMAHA may be restricted but still manages to run with everything else up to 90-100km/h. Fair enough if it just means you want it to be even faster but It's not actually slow at all in a drag, It's the top end where the others pull away a bit.

Secondly, is the YCCT feeding in the power in low gears, or is it actually low constantly.
How long does a motor spend on the dyno in each gear?

Some inertial drum machines seem to wind up fairly fast.

That's the problem with using 1/4 mile or zero to 60 times to compare, the numbers are often so close it looks like it doesn't matter, but those numbers don't show the connection felt when you twist the throttle. Compare the Tenere 0-60 times to many sportbikes with 50% more power and the numbers would suggest a similar experience, when we both know in the real world it's quite different. I'm still not buying the theory of the torque curve being so smooth it just doesn't feel fast or the motor not having character, I really enjoyed the character of the motor, it just feels corked up.

I never intended to say the bike is slow, just not responsive as I'd like. While there are some good real world reasons for wanting an immediate reaction to the throttle, part of it for me is just the joy of riding and the feeling it gives me, which is one of the reasons we are all interested in a 1200cc "Dakar" bike, right? ;D We could all get by with much less. Same reason we adjust air screws on carbed bikes that had to meet emissions, probably wouldn't even show up on a dyno or make a difference at the drag strip but makes a huge difference in the feel of the throttle hand to the motor. In other words I'm not worried about a dyno sheet results, or some magazines test numbers but what I feel when I ask for more, and from what I'm reading about the ECU flash sounds like it's there. I'd be surprised if the guys with the reflashed ECUs posted 0-60 times that are much different

 

[Tremor38]

My guess is all the reflashes would come up as the greatest thing since sliced bread, but also guess if you sent 99% of the guys back a stock spec PCM and just told them it was reflashed, most would still think it runs better. Same old thing. Mindpower. They tell you it runs better so it does in your mind. Guys on the Goldwing forum are all about comfort same way, remove the Honda seat, add a $20 Chinese crap seat that sells for $750 and feel the great comfort.

Yes, that's why Diapason did this for RACING purposes in the first place....to have 'mind control' over the racers because they obviously don't know what they're feeling or doing. Also, they must have 'mind control' over the dynos that are clearly delustional in showing a 20hp restriction in 1st gear and at least a 10hp restriction in second gear. This is on an eddy current dyno (see CA dyno run), so let's stop with the nonsense already...or maybe the Italians are somehow controlling that dyno as well? They're really getting good with that 'mind control' these days if they can fool an eddy current dyno at an indepent tuning center...we really should watch out and not make any moves we would regret. If those Italians are controlling that, just think of what other sinister plots they might be cooking up. And really, for proof of this concept, I think if we put all stock bikes on the World Superbike circuits you wouldn't see any drop-off in lap times because there's heavy 'mind control' going on there as well. I tell ya, you can't be too careful these days. 8)

 

[GrahamD]

I never intended to say the bike is slow, just not responsive as I'd like. While there are some good real world reasons for wanting an immediate reaction to the throttle, part of it for me is just the joy of riding and the feeling it gives me, which is one of the reasons we are all interested in a 1200cc "Dakar" bike, right? ;D We could all get by with much less. Same reason we adjust air screws on carbed bikes that had to meet emissions, probably wouldn't even show up on a dyno or make a difference at the drag strip but makes a huge difference in the feel of the throttle hand to the motor. In other words I'm not worried about a dyno sheet results, or some magazines test numbers but what I feel when I ask for more, and from what I'm reading about the ECU flash sounds like it's there. I'd be surprised if the guys with the reflashed ECUs posted 0-60 times that are much different

I have no beef with you there. Everyone has their own set of priorities, I would guess that the 0-60 time will be better.

If I personally find it annoying, I have no problems spending the bucks to "fix" it as long as the bike still has a Nanny option, because that WILL come in handy on occasions. Hence The sports mode fix, while leaving the Tour mode alone sounds good to me.

 

[spasm]

Yes, that's why Diapason did this for RACING purposes in the first place....to have 'mind control' over the racers because they obviously don't know what they're feeling or doing. Also, they must have 'mind control' over the dynos that are clearly delustional in showing a 20hp restriction in 1st gear and at least a 10hp restriction in second gear. This is on an eddy current dyno (see CA dyno run), so let's stop with the nonsense already...or maybe the Italians are somehow controlling that dyno as well? They're really getting good with that 'mind control' these days if they can fool an eddy current dyno at an indepent tuning center...we really should watch out and not make any moves we would regret. If those Italians are controlling that, just think of what other sinister plots they might be cooking up. And really, for proof of this concept, I think if we put all stock bikes on the World Superbike circuits you wouldn't see any drop-off in lap times because there's heavy 'mind control' going on there as well. I tell ya, you can't be too careful these days. 8)

::008:: ::008:: ::008:: ::008:: ::022::

 

[Tremor38]

I have no beef with you there. Everyone has their own set of priorities, I would guess that the 0-60 time will be better.

If I personally find it annoying, I have no problems spending the bucks to "fix" it as long as the bike still has a Nanny option, because that WILL come in handy on occasions. Hence The sports mode fix, while leaving the Tour mode alone sounds good to me.

Yeah, I definitely see the point of keeping T-mode. If the power hungry Blue eyes describes the new S-mode as a bit scary at times, I definitely want my T-mode for rainy days. O0 A lot of what this mod brings is what isn't traditionally measured, such as roll-on acceleration in 2nd gear while climbiing steep, twisty roads and certainly nobody has any standard, objective measure of throttle response, but anyone can 'feel' that for sure. It seems ironic that the power that is most useful is not measure very often, while the ooh, ah stuff like 1/4 mile and zero to sixty are a mainstay. Because of the power difference in second gear alone, yes, I also feel the zero to sixty times will decrease.