Why is the power restricted in gears 1,2,3 ?

Kevhunts

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Didn't want to clog up the other "power restriction " posts so I came here.

Why is the power restricted in the first three gears? Is this purely a emission issue?
I thought in a modern closed loop FI system, the ECU is always trying to maintain a stoichiometric mix at any gear/speed/load?
Is it this process that limits power in gears 1-3?
 

Blue_eyes

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Kevhunts said:
Didn't want to clog up the other "power restriction " posts so I came here.

Why is the power restricted in the first three gears? Is this purely a emission issue?
I thought in a modern closed loop FI system, the ECU is always trying to maintain a stoichiometric mix at any gear/speed/load?
Is it this process that limits power in gears 1-3?
Mayby try to do a search on "emission" first before starting a new topic for this simple question?

You would have found these results: http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?action=search2;params=eJwtzFEKgCAQBNC79NNvSZ1HbB3IMDdWKwIP3xr9zbxZ1vnLJYKvfR1qVwsfgTQbYyateeXbEu9HRIHyqLZIO57bei4bqFhO8VFqwlI0CSK-tz9ZH0TZI1MTOKFVO_aQc-D0Ah9wM4U.
 

Kevhunts

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Blue_eyes said:
Blue Eyes, Your links answer part of my question but I guess what I'm trying to understand is why would the S10 pollute more in gears 1-3 than other gears? Is it because of acceleration?
 

Blue_eyes

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Kevhunts said:
Blue Eyes, Your links answer part of my question but I guess what I'm trying to understand is why would the S10 pollute more in gears 1-3 than other gears? Is it because of acceleration?
The answer you're looking for is there: http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=2224.msg55989#msg55989

The emissions test are being done in the lower gears. But is not only the gas emissions that play a large roll, it is also the noise emissions (also done in lower gears) that forced Yamaha to restrict power in lower gears.

Apparently Yamaha is playing safe and is unfortunately for us already adapting to even new(er) emission laws that are "in the pen".
 

RogerJ

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Bllue Eyes.......I think you have the main reason and very clearly put......emissions and the way they are tested for.
I remember a number of years back on that other brand there was a software upgrade for the 1200 that tamed the bike so much that front wheel was much more difficult to raise off the ground. Guess they were concerned that we might get into trouble. That's why I never upgraded the software on mine. :)
 

3putt

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I have been riding for a long time in "S" mode and the reduced power is not that big a deal in most cases. Today I switched to "T" and WOW what a difference when you are used to "S" mode. Can really tell the reduction between the two.
 

stevepsd

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Other motorcycles have this restriction as well, for example I use TuneBoy (www.tuneboy.com.au) for remapping my Tiger1050.

The Triumph RocketIII has power reduced in the first 3 gears as can be seen on the attached screen shot (it's a matrix of Throttle Position (TP) vs. RPM), but the Tiger 1050, Speed Triple, Daytona, etc do not have this restriction. Don't know why only the Rocket III does.

At least with TuneBoy you can adjust & eliminate the restriction.

-steve
 

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Maybert

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stevepsd said:
Other motorcycles have this restriction as well, for example I use TuneBoy (www.tuneboy.com.au) for remapping my Tiger1050.

The Triumph RocketIII has power reduced in the first 3 gears as can be seen on the attached screen shot (it's a matrix of Throttle Position (TP) vs. RPM), but the Tiger 1050, Speed Triple, Daytona, etc do not have this restriction. Don't know why only the Rocket III does.

At least with TuneBoy you can adjust & eliminate the restriction.

-steve
I suspect because the Rocket III has an 80% chance of liquefying the rear tire in low gears :D
 

GrahamD

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I'll go for the emissions.

My 2000 Carbed SV650 had retarded ignition in the first 3 gears, I disabled it. It was a pain on a 650. The DL1K has it. I haven't bothered.

So it's not rare and has been going on for a while.

The other reason according to the Motorcycle EFI manual is to help with the life of the rear drive components. (BMW probably thought that was a good idea after a year or so of alleged disasters)

So it looks like lots of reasons. At least it can be fixed if needed.

Looking at that Rocket Map I would say that you could just select 3rd, spin it up to 4500 and drop the clutch. That'll fix it. Full power all the way..

Now tell me, does anyone know if the V-MAX has this restriction?

Cheers
Graham
 

Blue_eyes

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GrahamD said:
I'll go for the emissions.

My 2000 Carbed SV650 had retarded ignition in the first 3 gears, I disabled it. It was a pain on a 650. The DL1K has it. I haven't bothered.

So it's not rare and has been going on for a while.

The other reason according to the Motorcycle EFI manual is to help with the life of the rear drive components. (BMW probably thought that was a good idea after a year or so of alleged disasters)

So it looks like lots of reasons. At least it can be fixed if needed.

Looking at that Rocket Map I would say that you could just select 3rd, spin it up to 4500 and drop the clutch. That'll fix it. Full power all the way..

Now tell me, does anyone know if the V-MAX has this restriction?

Cheers
Graham
yes, V-Max is restricted too.
But V-Max has a "drag-strip launch mode" allowing you to omit the restriction, and sprint full power and to max rpm in first gear.
 

Tremor38

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Blue_eyes said:
yes, V-Max is restricted too.
But V-Max has a "drag-strip launch mode" allowing you to omit the restriction, and sprint full power and to max rpm in first gear.
::26:: We need more emoticons.
 

Kevhunts

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Blue_eyes said:
yes, V-Max is restricted too.
But V-Max has a "drag-strip launch mode" allowing you to omit the restriction, and sprint full power and to max rpm in first gear.
This is why I asked about the restrictions. I think it has more to do with the power characteristics than emissions or noise.
Having the power of a "drag-strip launch mode" would do no good in the woods or single-track.
I believe this is why Yamaha has designed the S-10 they way they have.
 

Tremor38

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Kevhunts said:
This is why I asked about the restrictions. I think it has more to do with the power characteristics than emissions or noise.
Having the power of a "drag-strip launch mode" would do no good in the woods or single-track.
I believe this is why Yamaha has designed the S-10 they way they have.
No, in Germany, a large group of Yamaha riders sent a petition demanding that Yamaha of Germany remove the restriction. The official explanation for why they could not do that was because of emissions. There may be secondary benefits, but emissions were the primary reason.

We've got some pretty smart guys in this forum that I'm sure realize the plusses and minuses of the mod, but everyobody has their own preference.

By the way, the Diapason flash was originally performed with off-road use in mind...and we still have the T mode if we need to calm down the manners a bit. Also, the mod doesn't disable traction control amd even with TC off, the 270 crank keeps alot of power to the ground. What I'm trying to say is you're not really saving anybody from anything. ::021::
 

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For me the emission restriction is perfect atm. I like the very linear acceleration through the gears (requires non-linear power output I figure)
and in the ice and snow, S-mode restricted feels confident but T-mode actually feels as it disconnect me from the road too much.


In the summer I will probably unrestrict.. but for now it could be a nice design (but it isn't due to Yamaha) ::012::
 

RMac

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To the starter of this thread. This is all about noise emission regulation. It is considered to be a very big deal for human health and wellbeing, especially in the urban environment. Do a search and you will quickly find massive EPA documents dating from as early as the 80's on the subject.
 

Kevhunts

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Well I guess emissions & noise are the accepted answer here but I still have difficulty believing Yamaha, or any other brand, can not deliver near full power/potential while maintaining acceptable emissions & noise levels with all the modern technology.
 

snakebitten

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MORE MORE MORE

I had the same NEED when I was riding Inline-4's. By their very nature, the whole sport bike genre is about squeeeezing every single bit out.

The SV650 I bought for the wife (02) introduced me to a completely different world. It was like therapy to release me from my horse power addiction.

I have enjoyed 2 wheels so much more since. And I have a whole stable of bikes that give me different kinds of 2-wheel pleasure that were invisible to me before.

Don't get me wrong.......I like to go fast! But in reality, if it only has 2 wheel, it is almost always fast.

If it is easy and inexpensive and reliable and not a threat to my warranty, I am all for improving the performance of the S10. (TB\sync-air screw adjustment) But this ain't my track bike! This is my adventure bike. And for me, it is the best one on the planet even the way it runs now. I got a list a mile long of farkles to make the actual adventure better. Addressing the engine is barely on the list.

But don't stop being the pioneers of improvement guys! I'm gonna follow in yaws wake and cherry pick the stuff that applies to me. ;D
 

markjenn

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A lot of interesting speculation in this thread. It's probably a combo of "all of the above".

It is pretty common for the mfgs to do some last-minute shenanigans to the tuning of a bike to get the bike comfortably under emissions and noise restrictions. And Yamaha may be anticipating future ratcheting down of regs. If they can produce a bike now that meets the future regs without modification later, then potentially they can save a lot of money. Same with building a single basic tune that can meet the differing regs of various markets - different regs that may vary in stringency in different areas. I see a lot of things in the S10 which strike me as watching the proverbial bottom-line for costs very closely so the bike can maintain a cost advantage over the competition in a time where the exchange rates are not favorable to Japanese products. This may be one of them.

Could Yamaha have gotten this bike past noise and emissions regs w/o the restriction? Probably yes, but it might cost more money long-term.

With today's fly-by-wire throttles, there is also a good rationale for doing this sort of restriction simply to make the bike more controllable for the intended market. With many of today's super-powerful bikes, there is almost no point in providing full power in the lower gears as most riders simply can't put the power to the ground - they either get wheelspin or a wheelie. Now the S10 makes pretty modest power and putting a full 90 RWHP to the ground in the first three gears seems pretty reasonable to me, but Yamaha may feel differently.

If you're ruthlessly practical about it, about the only thing having prodigious power in the lower gears does for you is jerk your arms harder - there really aren't very many places where you can use 90-hp in 1st gear in a practical way. Where big power pays off is in high-speed work where you want to get good acceleration doing 80+ mph and/or using the power to tackle loads/grades - in these situations, presumably you're in a higher gear and the restriction doesn't apply. I'm not terribly bothered by the restriction, although I wish it wasn't there.

In a lesser way, this strikes me about like the 186 mph top speed limiter on superbikes like the Busa and ZX14. Do I like the electronic nanny that the mfg has put there to protect me from myself? No. Practically speaking, is it enough of a real problem in everyday use of the bike that I'm going to go to any trouble to remove it. No.

But.... if we get a good US-based distributor of the mod, independent testing shows the mod works well and has no bad side effects, and the costs come down, I'll probably be a player.

- Mark
 

Z06

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snakebitten said:
MORE MORE MORE

I had the same NEED when I was riding Inline-4's. By their very nature, the whole sport bike genre is about squeeeezing every single bit out.

The SV650 I bought for the wife (02) introduced me to a completely different world. It was like therapy to release me from my horse power addiction.

I have enjoyed 2 wheels so much more since. And I have a whole stable of bikes that give me different kinds of 2-wheel pleasure that were invisible to me before.

Don't get me wrong.......I like to go fast! But in reality, if it only has 2 wheel, it is almost always fast.

If it is easy and inexpensive and reliable and not a threat to my warranty, I am all for improving the performance of the S10. (TB\sync-air screw adjustment) But this ain't my track bike! This is my adventure bike. And for me, it is the best one on the planet even the way it runs now. I got a list a mile long of farkles to make the actual adventure better. Addressing the engine is barely on the list.

But don't stop being the pioneers of improvement guys! I'm gonna follow in yaws wake and cherry pick the stuff that applies to me. ;D

+1
 

3putt

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Yeah, coming from the MTS1200, I am very happy with the Super Tenere. I want it to last a long time, and I want to go to the shop if I decide to, not when stuff breaks or will not work.

It took a little while for me to get used to less speed on my favorite runs, but I did, and still having lots of fun riding. The "T" mode is very gentle, but "S" is a nice step up, especially offroad, it has all I want.
 
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