markjenn said:
Thanks for the answer.
HARD START
- Thread starter Dirt_Dad
- Start date
Thanks for the answer.
We have some new info on this from Yamaha. It turns out that one of the Corporate tech supervisors has (or had?) a Gen1 Tenere and the person I talked to a couple of weeks ago mentioned this topic when talking to him. Now hearing that we still consider it to be an issue, my person called to share the following.
The company had been looking at hard starting and didn't have a clear answer when they came out with Gen2. By that time the number of service claims had diminished so with the new model they moved on to bigger problems. I'll add that in retrospect it kind of makes sense since the owners had their work-arounds and had gotten frustrated with the dealers.
We owners have long known that we could induce or aggravate a bike which has a hard start and in this forum we've repeatedly come back to discussing:
Not letting the engine fully warm before shutting it off.
Leaking fuel injection or letting the system pressure build correctly by interrupting a start.
The start may be harder with an older (lower voltage) battery.
The tech supervisor related through my person that when trying to figure this out, they had been suspecting that the issue is related to fouling the plugs, because they found the bikes doing short runs and not warming were the worst offenders. This would validate what we'd thought on our first point, because before the engine warms up, the ECU enriches the fuel-air mixture like an automated choke on a carbureted engine.
The forum members found that you need to let the fuel pump fully cycle before hitting the start button and we've known that once a bike wouldn't start, pulling the fuse or using the wide-open-throttle would be needed to clear the cylinders. This fits with the company's suspicion of fouling the plugs too. I'll add from instrumented airplane injection system tests that if the fuel pressure isn't allowed to stabilize, then the system may fluctuate pressure drastically up and down to "chase" getting it right and suddenly you can have raw fuel in the cylinders.
And finally, at the same time the battery has the heavy current draw of a starter motor, the battery needs to also provide enough power to run the ECU and ignition system. Fouled or wet plugs need a lot more power to develop a spark, so what we discussed fits this too. And once they start to coat, the down-hill degradation in performance just accelerates.
So for those having a bike which starts hard, we already figured out that we need to (1) let the fuel pump fully cycle before pushing the start button and (2) let it warm before shutting it off. Once warm, it is out of the enriched fuel-air mixture of starting. (3) If you still have a problem and are letting the engine warm, look into your battery and connections.
(4) The new item that the tech supervisor wanted us to know is that when they stopped looking into this they were getting positive results from regularly using Yamalube Engine Med RX. I looked it up and while the MSDS sheet just says it's a proprietary mixture, the Yamaha site says the following about it:
"Provides superior carbon deposit control, cleaning injectors, carburetors, intake valves and ports, and combustion chambers. It also protects fuel system metals from ethanol sulfate salt corrosion. Add it at every fill up to avoid unnecessary engine repairs due to poor quality gas, and to keep your engine clean and running efficiently."- See more at: https://www.shopyamaha.com/product/details/engine-med-rx?b=Search&d=34|34&dealernumber=#sthash.P27PGRTi.dpuf
The stuff is simply a fuel system cleaner/stabilizer, similar to Ring Free, Techron, and Seafoam. His suggestion to people is use it at fill ups, which also fits with the idea of preventing fouled plugs.
My person and the tech supervisor talked about ECU changes for the 2014 Gen2 bikes and they are only willing to disclose what changed with no details about how. The only relevant thing was that the engine fueling and management was changed for the mechanical changes implemented, and these likely would very much affect starting. No surprises.
Finishing our talk and finding out that this tech supervisor at corporate was or is an owner of our bike, I was curious about whether the corporate folks follow the forums to know when there are ongoing issues like this. Our forum has had a couple of employees "out" themselves out over the years, so we know there are a couple among us. The answer was that many of the company employees own Yamaha products and may be members of a forum for their particular model, but the company does not do it. The key comment to me was that he said after working and talking motorcycles all day, most of them just aren't interested in forums and such after work. That's fair too.
The company had been looking at hard starting and didn't have a clear answer when they came out with Gen2. By that time the number of service claims had diminished so with the new model they moved on to bigger problems. I'll add that in retrospect it kind of makes sense since the owners had their work-arounds and had gotten frustrated with the dealers.
We owners have long known that we could induce or aggravate a bike which has a hard start and in this forum we've repeatedly come back to discussing:
Not letting the engine fully warm before shutting it off.
Leaking fuel injection or letting the system pressure build correctly by interrupting a start.
The start may be harder with an older (lower voltage) battery.
The tech supervisor related through my person that when trying to figure this out, they had been suspecting that the issue is related to fouling the plugs, because they found the bikes doing short runs and not warming were the worst offenders. This would validate what we'd thought on our first point, because before the engine warms up, the ECU enriches the fuel-air mixture like an automated choke on a carbureted engine.
The forum members found that you need to let the fuel pump fully cycle before hitting the start button and we've known that once a bike wouldn't start, pulling the fuse or using the wide-open-throttle would be needed to clear the cylinders. This fits with the company's suspicion of fouling the plugs too. I'll add from instrumented airplane injection system tests that if the fuel pressure isn't allowed to stabilize, then the system may fluctuate pressure drastically up and down to "chase" getting it right and suddenly you can have raw fuel in the cylinders.
And finally, at the same time the battery has the heavy current draw of a starter motor, the battery needs to also provide enough power to run the ECU and ignition system. Fouled or wet plugs need a lot more power to develop a spark, so what we discussed fits this too. And once they start to coat, the down-hill degradation in performance just accelerates.
So for those having a bike which starts hard, we already figured out that we need to (1) let the fuel pump fully cycle before pushing the start button and (2) let it warm before shutting it off. Once warm, it is out of the enriched fuel-air mixture of starting. (3) If you still have a problem and are letting the engine warm, look into your battery and connections.
(4) The new item that the tech supervisor wanted us to know is that when they stopped looking into this they were getting positive results from regularly using Yamalube Engine Med RX. I looked it up and while the MSDS sheet just says it's a proprietary mixture, the Yamaha site says the following about it:
"Provides superior carbon deposit control, cleaning injectors, carburetors, intake valves and ports, and combustion chambers. It also protects fuel system metals from ethanol sulfate salt corrosion. Add it at every fill up to avoid unnecessary engine repairs due to poor quality gas, and to keep your engine clean and running efficiently."- See more at: https://www.shopyamaha.com/product/details/engine-med-rx?b=Search&d=34|34&dealernumber=#sthash.P27PGRTi.dpuf
The stuff is simply a fuel system cleaner/stabilizer, similar to Ring Free, Techron, and Seafoam. His suggestion to people is use it at fill ups, which also fits with the idea of preventing fouled plugs.
My person and the tech supervisor talked about ECU changes for the 2014 Gen2 bikes and they are only willing to disclose what changed with no details about how. The only relevant thing was that the engine fueling and management was changed for the mechanical changes implemented, and these likely would very much affect starting. No surprises.
Finishing our talk and finding out that this tech supervisor at corporate was or is an owner of our bike, I was curious about whether the corporate folks follow the forums to know when there are ongoing issues like this. Our forum has had a couple of employees "out" themselves out over the years, so we know there are a couple among us. The answer was that many of the company employees own Yamaha products and may be members of a forum for their particular model, but the company does not do it. The key comment to me was that he said after working and talking motorcycles all day, most of them just aren't interested in forums and such after work. That's fair too.
You know, what I actually find interesting about all that feedback is the details, or lack thereof, of the ecu programming changes to the Gen2 bikes.
The reason I feel that way has little to do with hard starts. Rather I feel there is some confusion about the instantly noticeable refinements reported when you first ride a new Gen2 Tenere and you are someone who had many hours on Gen1. Those reports were enthusiastic, justifiably of course, but I think unwittingly left the impression with some of the newcomers that more had been addressed by Yamaha than actually was.
I do not think the oem (EPA driven) fueling is nearly as sorted as a reflashed Gen1.
I also do not believe they removed the gimping of total output in the first 3 gears.
Nor do I believe the hard-start scenario was eliminated.
However, that takes nothing away from the overall improvement of a Brand New Gen2 bike compared to a well broken in, and possibly even well used, Gen1.
The contrast surely would\could be emotionally amplified for so many reasons.
Great info wreckerchecker! As usual, looking out for us inmates. I'm grateful.
But Gen2 Teneres benefit from an ECU reflash nearly as much as a Gen1. That's my take and I'm sticking to it! Lol
The reason I feel that way has little to do with hard starts. Rather I feel there is some confusion about the instantly noticeable refinements reported when you first ride a new Gen2 Tenere and you are someone who had many hours on Gen1. Those reports were enthusiastic, justifiably of course, but I think unwittingly left the impression with some of the newcomers that more had been addressed by Yamaha than actually was.
I do not think the oem (EPA driven) fueling is nearly as sorted as a reflashed Gen1.
I also do not believe they removed the gimping of total output in the first 3 gears.
Nor do I believe the hard-start scenario was eliminated.
However, that takes nothing away from the overall improvement of a Brand New Gen2 bike compared to a well broken in, and possibly even well used, Gen1.
The contrast surely would\could be emotionally amplified for so many reasons.
Great info wreckerchecker! As usual, looking out for us inmates. I'm grateful.
But Gen2 Teneres benefit from an ECU reflash nearly as much as a Gen1. That's my take and I'm sticking to it! Lol
Yes, thanks for followup guys and this is all good info. Many of us have speculated from back in 2012 that the problem had all the earmarkings of cold-start plug fouling aggravated by overly aggressive mixture enrichment. Previous starting without getting the plugs up to full operating temp, a somewhat weak battery, and the fact the bike is a bit of a marginal starter in general all aggravate the issue. And we also have some info that WOT doesn't actually open the ride-by-wire throttle plates all the way (I think 25% was the figure) which means that a flooded condition is harder to climb out of even if you know about the WOT technique. It's a race whether the fuel is purged before the battery gives up.
My bet is that Yamaha could have tweaked the overly-aggressive cold-start enrichment schedule in the ECU and the problem would have been instantly solved. But they would have had to re-certify the bike, rumored to cost upwards of $100K and probably would have had to roll out at least a TSB (if not a full recall) to replace ECUs for customers who complain. Figure $100K for the emissions cost + a 30% take rate for the SB at $150/bike x 5K Gen 1 bikes and you end up with $300K hit for a bike that has never done much for Yamaha's bottom line. And there has never been a safety angle which usually drives recalls - if the bike doesn't start, then it can't kill you. (Actually, I see an angle to make this a feature - "Occasional hard starting, which only occurs at start of trip, reduces risks to customers by forcing them to take safer/alternative transportation.") So they passed. It doesn't matter who the vehicle mfg is - Honda, BMW, Yamaha, Ford,.... - they all make choices like this. I don't hold it against Yamaha, but by the same token, I don't think they deserve any accolades for the way they handled it nor the hollow offer they're making now.
- Mark
My bet is that Yamaha could have tweaked the overly-aggressive cold-start enrichment schedule in the ECU and the problem would have been instantly solved. But they would have had to re-certify the bike, rumored to cost upwards of $100K and probably would have had to roll out at least a TSB (if not a full recall) to replace ECUs for customers who complain. Figure $100K for the emissions cost + a 30% take rate for the SB at $150/bike x 5K Gen 1 bikes and you end up with $300K hit for a bike that has never done much for Yamaha's bottom line. And there has never been a safety angle which usually drives recalls - if the bike doesn't start, then it can't kill you. (Actually, I see an angle to make this a feature - "Occasional hard starting, which only occurs at start of trip, reduces risks to customers by forcing them to take safer/alternative transportation.") So they passed. It doesn't matter who the vehicle mfg is - Honda, BMW, Yamaha, Ford,.... - they all make choices like this. I don't hold it against Yamaha, but by the same token, I don't think they deserve any accolades for the way they handled it nor the hollow offer they're making now.
- Mark
tomatocity
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When my 2012 engine blew up (my 2012 had severe carbon build up) Yamaha covered the damage 100% with one demand... that I use Ring Free in the future. Ring Free was replaced with Engine Med RX Advanced Ethanol Corrosion Protection & Engine De-Carboning. I don't carry Ring Free Med RX on long trips but do use it for local miles. Yamaha said the reason for carbon build up was lugging the engine and I should ride at higher RPMs. Hey what a deal when a manufacturer tells you to ride with some pep to your step. I asked what do I do on freeways when in sixth gear and 70 mph is 4,000 rpm's. I did not get an answer. Buy the RX in the 16 ounce bottle. A better price and has a measure built in to the bottle.Checkswrecks said:
Hey Tomato! It was your story, back when it was real-time, that influenced my decision to use the additive. (so thanks)
I can't prove it has saved me from impending doom. But I can report that the last valve adjustment revealed gorgeously clean visuals of places where others showed carbon deposits. Even the tech was impressed. He, knowing the entire history of my Tenere adventures, claims my Tenere is solid proof to him just how good Yamaha did on this "unknown" motorcycle.
I can't prove it has saved me from impending doom. But I can report that the last valve adjustment revealed gorgeously clean visuals of places where others showed carbon deposits. Even the tech was impressed. He, knowing the entire history of my Tenere adventures, claims my Tenere is solid proof to him just how good Yamaha did on this "unknown" motorcycle.
I've never had a problem with this beyond minor annoyance. Likely because I am old. When I was young all my vehicles had carburetors with primitive automatic chokes, no emissions, and weak breaker point ignitions. They flooded ROUTINELY. We just knew how to deal with it.
When mine has died, I just don't keep trying, I immediately roll the throttle WFO while continuing to crank and it fires up after a few seconds more of cranking.
I have not had too many problems after shop time, multiple key on and key off do not seem to trigger mine. Cold and wet will. Especially if I resort to my old carby habits and blip the throttle as I let in the clutch. It really does not like that, especially when cold and wet.
Checkswrecks, thanks for the updates.
When mine has died, I just don't keep trying, I immediately roll the throttle WFO while continuing to crank and it fires up after a few seconds more of cranking.
I have not had too many problems after shop time, multiple key on and key off do not seem to trigger mine. Cold and wet will. Especially if I resort to my old carby habits and blip the throttle as I let in the clutch. It really does not like that, especially when cold and wet.
Checkswrecks, thanks for the updates.
Kevhunts
"For every one you see, you probably missed three"
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::026::snakebitten said:
Seems most logical.
I never had the hard starting problem.
I always let the "ignition on" sequence play out before hitting the start button and once started, never shut the engine off until the cooling fan cycled or I reached my destination.
I did have my ECU flashed early on and thought perhaps that helped keep me out of trouble but now I doubt it.
When my battery turned 2 years old, I started to lose confidence in it and after reading several hard starting posts, decided to put the highest CCA battery I could fit in it's place and I never looked back.
rickster60
Member
::015::Just pulled #4 fuse as described in the very first post of this Hard Start thread..held the throttle wide open and after a day of tinkering to find the problem it started right up..so happy
Tenman
Well-Known Member
I carry a quikstart jumper under my rear pillion. Fits like it was made for it. It has got me out of serious trouble several times. Some of those dead starts were from me killing it with the sidestand and forgetting to turn the key off. Chaps my ass evertime. I ride alone in some places that has no fone service and walking out is a scarey thought.
Don in Lodi
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Tenman said:
Been thinking about bypassing that damn switch.
2daMax
Active Member
This is my 1st time having a new battery installed. Old battery was dated 2011 n kept in storage with the bike at the dealer until 2015. I started using it n after about 1.5 years I noticed cold starts sometimes takes 3 to 5 secs to start with me holding on the start button. If I made a short trip like a 10 mins ride the start up is also equally long. I kept holding on to the button to avoid a hard start issue.
Ok new ytz14s equivalent battery installed. Start up in cold is less than a sec. I live in a tropical country. I can imagine it harder to start or fail to start if the temps are cold. And I believe one of the hard starting issues is due to weak battery.
For the record, old yuasa ytz12s was reading 12.3V before it was removed. New battery was 12.97V when installed. After a ride of 30 mins it goes up to 13.3V. after riding n letting it sit for 12 hrs, 13.1V. Old Yuasa after 1 hour on the charger reads 12.44V after a day.
Ok new ytz14s equivalent battery installed. Start up in cold is less than a sec. I live in a tropical country. I can imagine it harder to start or fail to start if the temps are cold. And I believe one of the hard starting issues is due to weak battery.
For the record, old yuasa ytz12s was reading 12.3V before it was removed. New battery was 12.97V when installed. After a ride of 30 mins it goes up to 13.3V. after riding n letting it sit for 12 hrs, 13.1V. Old Yuasa after 1 hour on the charger reads 12.44V after a day.
Koinz
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Will all do respect, static battery voltage while sitting doesn't really tell you anything (unless you have a shorted cell). It should read at least 12 volts and most times a little more. There are 6 cells developing ~2 volts each.2daMax said:
The way you test a battery is under load. Get a battery load testing tool or Crank the engine for a specific amount of time, 10 seconds and read the voltage while cranking. Voltage should not go below 10.2 volts. You don't want to keep doing this as it could overheat the starter.
2daMax
Active Member
Thanks for the inputs. I know that the load testing is the real test for a battery's health. It can determine the CCA. I do not have one or have access to one. Voltage at static as you called it tells me one thing, the per cell storage condition, not sure of the right word used here but it gives an idea of the condition of the battery to store the charges due to long term suffocation effects.
Just heard from a buddy that by using 2X 22000uF capacitors placed in parallel to the battery, and load tested, the CCA went up from 230A to 300A. This is what I am going to do.
Just heard from a buddy that by using 2X 22000uF capacitors placed in parallel to the battery, and load tested, the CCA went up from 230A to 300A. This is what I am going to do.
Sorry, what you are reporting might be a battery issue but it is not even remotely what those of us that have had a 'hard start' experience. I know good and well what a weak battery sounds like and is. When my bike has a 'hard start' it refuses to start. Period. I can run the battery from full charge to no charge and nothing. Nada. Zero. Zip. I know damn good and well how to do the WOT procedure. Nada. Zero. Zip. So does everyone else. That crap does not work when this bike decides it is not going to start. There are those on this board and thread that do not believe in this phenomenon. Fine, lucky them. I've had it multiple times. Sometimes out of the blue, sometimes multiple times in a row. The only thing that fixes this for my bike is pulling the FI fuse and blowing what appears to be a flood condition out and then putting the FI fuese back in. Hard start my ass, it is a flaw somewhere in the FI programming that floods this bike. Hard start is BS, its NO START.
Not ragging on you but a wimpy battery is NOT what this thread is about. Take discussions about how to measure battery performance to a different thread.
Not ragging on you but a wimpy battery is NOT what this thread is about. Take discussions about how to measure battery performance to a different thread.
2daMax said:
tpak said:
A weak battery can push a regularly OK bike into the hard start group, but you're right. There's a group of Gen1 bikes which clearly has a hard start issue of their own. Beyond what we learned from Yamaha a couple months ago, nobody has ever really figured out what those bikes root issue was.
Donk
Well-Known Member
FWIW; Picked up my new '17 and it turns over faster and stronger than my "14 ever did. Is it possible Yamaha did something without saying like a bigger starter cable?
Checks, must have missed it, what did we learn from Yamaha recently?Checkswrecks said:
Edit - nevermind, found it a few pages back, missed it the first time. Interesting info. All I know is when it happens to me I don't bother with WOT procedures because they don't work for me, I just proceed to pull the FI fuse, crank until she feels like she is trying to catch, put the fuse back in and cover back on, start up and ride away. Works every time. I personally can not correlate the occurrences of this too short rides/engine runs but as it seems to vary for us Gen1 owners that is no surprise. I do occasionally use Seafoam but don't track it so can not correlate that either. Maybe I'll be more regular about doing so.
Meanwhile:
::021::
Cycledude
Well-Known Member
Well in 30,000 miles I've experienced the no start issue twice, first time was last summer, second time was today, just like the first time it cranked and fired once like it was going to start but didn't start, after about an hour of messing with it it finally started and has run fine since, it still has the original battery so maybe tomorrow I will load test it and if it needs a new battery it will definitely be a battery that has more cranking power than the original battery has ever had.
Cycledude
Well-Known Member
I have a cheap load tester and with that the stock battery tested fine so I thought maybe I should take it to my dealer and have them load test it, they tested it with two different and expensive looking testers and got the same results as my cheap load tester so I guess my 13 battery is still fine.
When Looking at Amazon for a battery it says the Yuasa YTZ 14S does not fit the Tenere , apparently that's incorrect information ?
When Looking at Amazon for a battery it says the Yuasa YTZ 14S does not fit the Tenere , apparently that's incorrect information ?