HARD START

Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
29
Likes
0
Location
South Korea
Guys after 5 years of ‘cold start’ and all the problems that go with it, WOT, fuse #4, out, being trucked twice, and push or jump started got a new battery fitted during a thorough check out by Yamaha (electrical, plugs, starter motor, and fuel delivery system ... no problem found and Yamaha only charged for parts). Bought a battery tester (Ancell BA101), a decent ammeter, and set about the new battery. Could go on for a long while, but the battery (fully charged and new) struggled at temps lower than 4oC (down to -8oC) … like it failed to start and flooded or the starter motor labored and engine caught. When it failed to start, took battery out left in house overnight (no charging), replaced next day (bike temperature -8oC, battery temperature 24oC), F4 out/replace to burn off fuel, and got strong starts every time (even tried after being left at 240C for 90 mins after a no start at -5oC (battery gained 10oC +) and that worked) . Got a lot of data, but bottom line is the BS BTZ 14S battery (new and fully charged) doesn’t have what it takes to guarantee starting my S10 at low temps (though my tester at 0oC says this battery was delivering 270 amps at a cranking voltage of 9.38V), or that my bike requires more CCAs than that stated by Yamaha (my tester says it needs 290 amps + for a good start). What’s more this situation is going to deteriorate with battery age, and my spider senses say this is the root cause of the ‘cold’ start problem. EarthX 36C on order … can’t wait.
 

Cycledude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2016
Messages
1,192
Likes
149
Location
Rib lake wi
Jack I’m Very sorry you keep having this hard start issue, it seems to be a way to common problem with the Super Tenere ! Luckily it’s only happened to my Tenere twice in 30,000 miles.

jackintherok said:
Guys after 5 years of ‘cold start’ and all the problems that go with it, WOT, fuse #4, out, being trucked twice, and push or jump started got a new battery fitted during a thorough check out by Yamaha (electrical, plugs, starter motor, and fuel delivery system ... no problem found and Yamaha only charged for parts). Bought a battery tester (Ancell BA101), a decent ammeter, and set about the new battery. Could go on for a long while, but the battery (fully charged and new) struggled at temps lower than 4oC (down to -8oC) … like it failed to start and flooded or the starter motor labored and engine caught. When it failed to start, took battery out left in house overnight (no charging), replaced next day (bike temperature -8oC, battery temperature 24oC), F4 out/replace to burn off fuel, and got strong starts every time (even tried after being left at 240C for 90 mins after a no start at -5oC (battery gained 10oC +) and that worked) . Got a lot of data, but bottom line is the BS BTZ 14S battery (new and fully charged) doesn’t have what it takes to guarantee starting my S10 at low temps (though my tester at 0oC says this battery was delivering 270 amps at a cranking voltage of 9.38V), or that my bike requires more CCAs than that stated by Yamaha (my tester says it needs 290 amps + for a good start). What’s more this situation is going to deteriorate with battery age, and my spider senses say this is the root cause of the ‘cold’ start problem. EarthX 36C on order … can’t wait.
 

Checkswrecks

Ungenear to broked stuff
Staff member
Global Moderator
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
8,258
Likes
265
Location
Damascus, MD
Cycledude said:
Jack I’m Very sorry you keep having this hard start issue, it seems to be a way to common problem with the 2010 - 2013 Super Tenere ! Luckily it’s only happened to my Tenere twice in 30,000 miles.

Fixed it for you and agree about feeling for his aggravation.

On a more humorous note, the way Jack's post comes across is that he is experiencing temps of -80C to 240C, which would be about -112 F to 464 F. ;) Paper ignites at about 450 F.
Of course, -8 to 24 is really 18 F to 75 F.
 

ace50

Active Member
Joined
May 19, 2015
Messages
634
Likes
37
Location
VA
Juan said:
Today I replaced the Yuasa YTS12S battery that came with my new bike in April 2013 with a Yuasa YTZ14S. The old battery was still good enough but required a little charging if not used for a week, otherwise it couldn't crank the bike fast enough to fire up. As soon as I installed the new 14S, I gave it a go, knowing that supplier storage period, etc would have drained the charge somewhat. The new 14S was registering 12.8 volts before connecting it, so I figured that that was good enough to give it a try. And wow, what power! The bike cranked as never before and fired up immediately. I would not hesitate to advise all that when the time comes to replace the battery, the Yuasa YTZ14S is a fine contender.
Just ordered a BikeMaster YTZ14S. (I'm cheap)
Hoping it will start better as it's always been anemic with the stock battery and getting worse now.
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
29
Likes
0
Location
South Korea
Checkerwrecks you got a strange sense of humor there bro. Apols even CNN is in centigrade here and posting from Word did the rest. Anyway, thought I’d share because someone might benefit.
ace50 … was tempted by the Yuasa YTZ14S but want this problem sorted for good. So, the EarthX ETX36C is a definite expensive, ‘shit or bust’ move (I don’t have any interest in the company). The new, fully charged BS BTZ14S (fitted by Yamaha as a cheap option I guess) also gives a very strong start at battery temps in the 70’s (and probably in the 60’s and 50’s ... I did not check there), but it was a different (and familiar) tale at around 32 or less (we get freezing temps overnight from around mid October to mid April in Korea). I’m not confident whether the Yuasa YTZ 14S at say a year old could cope with my bike at these low temperatures, because I had ‘hard start’ problem with a YTZ 12S at 7 months (first winter) and it then hard started through the year and died the next winter. The BS battery has the same specs as the YTZ14S, but would expect the Yuasa to have better long-term and low temperature performance. All the best. (my bike is a first edition 2010, same as the 2012 model sold in the States)
 

Cycledude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2016
Messages
1,192
Likes
149
Location
Rib lake wi
So you are saying this hard start issue does not happen to Tenere’s 2014 and up ? If that’s the case Yamaha must know the cure and should have a fix for the older Tenere.


Checkswrecks said:
Fixed it for you and agree about feeling for his aggravation.

On a more humorous note, the way Jack's post comes across is that he is experiencing temps of -80C to 240C, which would be about -112 F to 464 F. ;) Paper ignites at about 450 F.
Of course, -8 to 24 is really 18 F to 75 F.
 

Nikolajsen

"Keep it simple"
Joined
Jul 1, 2017
Messages
1,071
Likes
180
Location
Denmark
I experience something like this on my 2017....
For about 2 weeks ago, I was making an adapter plate for the new Zumo, and had the old Zumo in the old holder just before (so there was some consumption from battery)
I then thought that I better start up, S10 startet right up :)
But when I gave it some throttle, it died.....
When turning starter again, it would not start, and starter motor starts to slow down...not enough power on battery...
I immediately stopped, and put on a trickle charger (Ctek), waitet 10 min. and tried again...
S10 startet up, but I had to give full throttle..
So here is what I think happened.
I think that when cold, the S10 gets a little to much gasoline, so when giving throttle to fast when cold, it will flood. If you give throttle very slow, it is possible to keep it running.

And yes, this is a 2017 european model, with new mapping for the Euro4.
I have no idea on how a 2014-2016 model not Euro4, wil behave.
 

Checkswrecks

Ungenear to broked stuff
Staff member
Global Moderator
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
8,258
Likes
265
Location
Damascus, MD
Cycledude said:
So you are saying this hard start issue does not happen to Tenere’s 2014 and up ? If that’s the case Yamaha must know the cure and should have a fix for the older Tenere.

Nobody - including Yamaha because I've been there - knows which changes for the Gen2 bikes released in 2014 alleviated the Gen1 problem. There were a number of changes and it could have been one change or a collection of them. The three things I've noticed over time:


1. They changed Ramseybella's wiring harness and it so far made a difference. They changed SAIL2XX harness and it didn't.


2. Fresh batteries seem to help, especially if going to the bigger 14S. And we never hear of hard starts from those with lithium, which has a flatter discharge curve. (But Li-Ion has enough down-sides that I would not recommend one, as discussed in other threads.)


3. Yamaha North America found that using their Med-RX fuel additive helped.


As Nikolajsen notes, you can get a hard start in a Gen2, but it almost takes effort to do it. In the Gen1s, some bikes were notorious and most had no problem.
 

Nikolajsen

"Keep it simple"
Joined
Jul 1, 2017
Messages
1,071
Likes
180
Location
Denmark
Checkswrecks said:
you can get a hard start in a Gen2, but it almost takes effort to do it.
I agree :)
And I know that if you don't go "WROOOM WROOOM" on the throttle until it have been running about 1 min. There is no problem.
And there is also no problem, if you do as I normal do, just start up and go nice and easy right away.
Actually I normally first start the bike, when I'm sitting on it, ready for take off.

All ot the above is of course only experince from my short ownership of the S10 ;) and only one bike.
 

Dirt_Dad

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
4,102
Likes
43
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
You can get what appears to be a hard start from a Gen 2, but it is something different. I haven't reported it before, but it did happen to me last summer on my Alaksa trip when I was riding my wife's 2017 ES.

Situation - Bike had been ridden many hundreds of miles everyday for 7 days straight days with no issues. Up next morning, approx 60 degrees, warmed up bike, rode 3 miles, shutdown bike for about 1 minute. Restarted bike rode another 3 miles and shutdown for 10 minutes. Back on the bike, it would not start. The 5 month old ES just cranked and cranked. I went to WOT and it made no difference at all. Bike gave no indication it was going to start.

After a long try, I finally reached for the key to turn off the ignition to let the starter cool down. As I turned the key to the left I realized there had been no resistance moving the key out of the "On" detent to Off. Finding that strange I immediately turned the key all the way to the On detent. Hit the starter and it fired up immediately like normal.

Lesson learned - it is possible to partially engage the electrical system based on improper key position. Gauge lights and starter are energized, but not everything necessary to run the bike.

If your 2014+ bike appears to have a hard start, check your key position.
 

bigbob

Active Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
926
Likes
52
Location
Des Moines, IA
Thanks Dad. Have had that happen a couple times. Turned the key off and waited for cycle down. Then on making sure fuel pump pressurized. Hit the button and it started. Did not notice the key pressure but I would bet that was it.
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
29
Likes
0
Location
South Korea
Got the lithium battery (EarthX ETX36C) ten days ago. Failed to get the bike (1st Gen) not to start at temps down to 28 or covered with morning mist at 34. No more WOT (but I have a habit of just cracking the throttle first start of the day). No more making sure the engine is up to 75 F before switching it off, no more fuse 4 out, smells of flooded engine, plug changes, having to test that she will start before kitting up. She just starts immediately. Dam engine seems to have more grunt moving off as well. Early days ... but so far incredible improvement. Already confident that it will start when needed. Guy with an ETX28C in an S10 messaged me with the same story. Will keep in touch ... going for a ride.
 

bimota

Active Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2017
Messages
172
Likes
75
Location
S Wales UK (Bridgend)
hi,
don,t want to go through all the thread my bike will not start saw on page 1 about how to start it but WOT keeps popping up can someobody explain what the word WOT means is it with out throttle

cheers

rob
 

Checkswrecks

Ungenear to broked stuff
Staff member
Global Moderator
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
8,258
Likes
265
Location
Damascus, MD
bimota said:
hi,
don,t want to go through all the thread my bike will not start saw on page 1 about how to start it but WOT keeps popping up can someobody explain what the word WOT means is it with out throttle

cheers

rob

WOT means holding wide open throttle. Be ready to reduce it as soon as the bike starts, but it'll usually cough a couple of times first.
 

sjh

Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Messages
114
Likes
4
Location
midlands uk
Dirt_Dad said:
Lesson learned - it is possible to partially engage the electrical system based on improper key position. Gauge lights and starter are energized, but not everything necessary to run the bike.

I've managed to do similar whereby the bike would start and run fine, but i realised i had no indicators after a while. No idea if my lights etc were on.

It happened twice in Norway last year, the second time i just turned the key all the way to the "on" position while still riding and all was well.
 

WJBertrand

Ventura Highway
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
1,909
Likes
177
Location
Ventura, CA
Dirt_Dad said:
You can get what appears to be a hard start from a Gen 2, but it is something different. I haven't reported it before, but it did happen to me last summer on my Alaksa trip when I was riding my wife's 2017 ES.

Situation - Bike had been ridden many hundreds of miles everyday for 7 days straight days with no issues. Up next morning, approx 60 degrees, warmed up bike, rode 3 miles, shutdown bike for about 1 minute. Restarted bike rode another 3 miles and shutdown for 10 minutes. Back on the bike, it would not start. The 5 month old ES just cranked and cranked. I went to WOT and it made no difference at all. Bike gave no indication it was going to start.

After a long try, I finally reached for the key to turn off the ignition to let the starter cool down. As I turned the key to the left I realized there had been no resistance moving the key out of the "On" detent to Off. Finding that strange I immediately turned the key all the way to the On detent. Hit the starter and it fired up immediately like normal.

Lesson learned - it is possible to partially engage the electrical system based on improper key position. Gauge lights and starter are energized, but not everything necessary to run the bike.

If your 2014+ bike appears to have a hard start, check your key position.
I've heard this issue reported several times for the newer FJRs except in that case it turns on the MIL alert and sets a code. The 16 and later FJR ECUs can't be cleared without a special harness and an OBD II scanner. This is the first report of a similar phenomenon with the Super T. The changes were made to the FJR to meet the latest (Euro 4?) European emissions requirements, I wonder if something has been changed similarly in the '16 and newer Teneres as well?
 

Dirt_Dad

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
4,102
Likes
43
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
WJBertrand said:
I've heard this issue reported several times for the newer FJRs except in that case it turns on the MIL alert and sets a code. The 16 and later FJR ECUs can't be cleared without a special harness and an OBD II scanner. This is the first report of a similar phenomenon with the Super T. The changes were made to the FJR to meet the latest (Euro 4?) European emissions requirements, I wonder if something has been changed similarly in the '16 and newer Teneres as well?
If a code was set I did not and have not seen it. Everything has worked normally since that episode.
 

Nimbus

New Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2012
Messages
192
Likes
0
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Mine did this again (for the second time in ~40,000 miles) last week. I pulled the EFI fuse, went WOT, tried every combination of crank without fuse, put it back, WOT, do the same no WOT...ad nauseaum for a week. Then I replaced the battery. And it still wouldn't start until I cranked and cranked and cranked and cranked (and recharged the battery) and cranked and cranked....

Anyway, a couple of observations:

1) I was going to find a cliff and roll the bike over it, sell my other Yamaha, and buy something else.
2) I did notice that in the weeks before the "Hard start" the bike did it's old routine of occasionally giving a fire/pop which sounds like it's gonna start, but requires me to hold the starter until it does actually keep firing. I had assumed this was related to the iffy white ground connector that I still believe is the culprit in my low idle/stalling/3500rpms without throttle experiences, but I had just cleaned that thoroughly.
3) I also noticed that right before the hard start, the bike would start but the backlight/lcd would go black. I always assumed that the battery would die like a car, but I think it will still turn the starter but not have the amps to run everything so it actually fires. The new battery was clearly and immediately better and the bike was obviously going to start at some point.
4) Amusingly (or not), my dad was over as I was cranking the bike with the old battery and the EFI fuse out. It actually started and fired to the point that the lights came on and my dad congratulated me on it starting. Then I held up the fuse in my hand and it died.

Anyway, it works now, I'm blaming the Batteries+Bulbs battery ( that was 14 months old) and the long cold winter. OH, and Yamaha. I still blame them. I love the bike, I just wish Honda made it.
 

Checkswrecks

Ungenear to broked stuff
Staff member
Global Moderator
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
8,258
Likes
265
Location
Damascus, MD
We've seen over and over that with these big twin 600cc cylinders, that with a slightly weak battery, the current draw through the starter is so big there's not enough voltage for the ECU to run the ignition.
 
Top Bottom