Countersteering?

[MojoToot]

at just about 4:54 into that Keith Code vid...is the answer to my "riddle".


body positions & countersteering and inter-related effects...

in these 4 examples, to keep the comparisons pure, consider bike/rider/line/turn/speed as CONSTANTS.
consider a left turn.

1. shift body position to right (outside of turn)
*this cause the bike to lean right & bars rotate counterclockwise
*since the given CONSTANT is a line tracking left, a lot of handlebar input is needed in a clockwise fashion.
some to offset the force created by the outside lean & more to maintain the line through the left turn.
*this example will have the bike at the lowest lean angle.
*this will use the most traction, leaving the least "residual" traction.

2. body in center/no lean
*requires less clockwise handlebar input force than above.
*lean angle is higher
*residual traction is greater than above.

3. body lean to left a perfect position where bike turns along CONSTANT line.
* zero handlebar input is required from rider/the correct countersteer has already been accomplished by weight transfer/lean
*lean angle is now higher than #2 above.
*residual traction also greater than #2.

4. body position way to inside of turn/creating enough lean-countersteer to turn too far (left of the line CONSTANT)
handlebar input is needed to correct line, counterclockwise rotation, STEERING TO LEFT IN A LEFT TURN.
*the lean angle is now higher than #3.
*the residual traction is greater than #3.

 

[dcstrom]

I did not find any detailed physics analysis.

I did, but didn´t post it here cos it was full of equations that I didn´t understand.

My point is that smooth riders try to minimize instability and keep the counter steer to imperceptible levels. I go one step further. I view it as an unwelcome consequence of the actions needed to cause lean angle. A consequence of shifting one's weight or applying force to the handle bars, not an aid to establishing lean. An effect to be avoided to the extent possible in the course of normal street and sport riding.

If we accept that you don´t countersteer because you are trying to ¨minimize instability¨, what do you do in response to, for example, an unseen pothole that you have to dodge at the last second? The bike isn´t going to respond fast enough by simply leaning it (and I´m still not convinced you can even do that safely without some degree of countersteer, concious or not).

The way to dodge the hole is to *aggressively* countersteer. The bike will turn very quickly, but then straighten up quickly when you release the pressure on the bars.

There, I just saved you a dinged rim!

 

[Dirt_Dad]

So glad I don't need to think about what I'm doing to steer the bike. I just think about where I want the bike to go, and it magically goes there. Don't know how, but it just works.

I'd be a world of hurt if I had to think about what I'm doing with the handlebars in each turn.

 

[MojoToot]

So glad I don't need to think about what I'm doing to steer the bike. I just think about where I want the bike to go, and it magically goes there. Don't know how, but it just works.

I'd be a world of hurt if I had to think about what I'm doing with the handlebars in each turn.

many riders start young, riding dirt bikes...from your moniker...you may be one (i am as well).

riders that startlater in life, have to do more thinking first before things become ingrained & automatic.

but there is ALWAYS something new to learn....learning comes in stages & you need to be aware of the technique & think about it & practice it & grow to understand when to use it & EVENTUALLY it is incorporated into your "automatic" quiver of riding skills.

 

[viewdvb]

I've seen all this discussion about countersteering before and my reaction is "who cares?" It seems to me that all cornering especially fast or on the limit is achieved at a purely subconscious level. If you are having to think about it, Lord help you cos He's your best bet. I am not a fan of the Keith Code approach though it has earned him a lot of cash and I know many who worship the man. People who analyse then construct systems for doing things from slimming to motorcycling deserve suspicion in my view. Perhaps you might need to have counter-steering explained at some very basic starter level but it needs to become entirely automatic if you are going to stay alive. The question is "do you feel you have trouble initiating or executing a turn?" I thought not. So it doesn't matter does it?

 

[MojoToot]

........... The question is "do you feel you have trouble initiating or executing a turn?" I thought not. So it doesn't matter does it?

actually, I was not talking about "countersteering" per se...but the relationship of countersteering/weighting or body position/handlebar input.

and not talking about "making a turn" but how you can alter your traction via shifting your weight...

you come hot around a bend and see the road is covered with wet leaves or gravel....

what's your reaction? what techniques are going to minimize your loss of traction?

the name of this sub-forum is rider's clinic...isn't this the place to discuss this stuff?

I'm so glad that "you just automatically know everything about riding".

so "who cares"?...if you don't care fine...someone else might.

 

[orange rush]

Keith Code demonstrated how countersteering works with his "No BS" bike! Google it.
Chris

 

[rem]

I think countersteering, or whatever you want to call it, is a way of life on a bike. You can't turn it like a tricycle unless you're going very slowly. Just can't. If you do a hard right turn at speed, you'll likely go flying off to the left, so something else has to be going on. It's the lean that causes the bike to turn, not the front wheel. The "counter steer" gets the bike leaning in the right direction, and Fred's your plumber (that's Canuck for Bob's your Uncle). The rest just kind of takes care of itself, with some very subtle, almost unconscious body dynamic from yon rider.


I don't think about it, but I like knowing how it works. In explaining all this, I've done you a good turn ... aw, maaaaannnnn ... get it? Good turn? OK, signing off. R ::020::

 

[Abercrombie tenere]

I've seen all this discussion about countersteering before and my reaction is "who cares?" It seems to me that all cornering especially fast or on the limit is achieved at a purely subconscious level. If you are having to think about it, Lord help you cos He's your best bet. I am not a fan of the Keith Code approach though it has earned him a lot of cash and I know many who worship the man. People who analyse then construct systems for doing things from slimming to motorcycling deserve suspicion in my view. Perhaps you might need to have counter-steering explained at some very basic starter level but it needs to become entirely automatic if you are going to stay alive. The question is "do you feel you have trouble initiating or executing a turn?" I thought not. So it doesn't matter does it?

"Who cares?" "If you having to think about it, Lord help you cos he's your best bet." :question:

I'm sorry to tell you, the lord ain't going to help you if you get into a corner a little too quickly, discover a little too late that you’re in a decreasing radius corner, or find an oncoming vehicle crossing into your lane. You better be thinking about, and practiced in how to get yourself out of these types of situations because it doesn't "become entirely automatic".

Do yourself a favor the next time you’re going through a set of corners or better yet a big parking empty lot, practice defending against these scenarios. Imagine having to tighten the radius of your corner after initiating the turn. Your best defense will be to look where you want to go by looking through the corner, turning your head and shoulders and THINKING ABOUT pressing the inside handle grip.

You can wait for the lord to help you but I would prefer that riders thinking about cornering, and practice the techniques before they are needed because it doesn’t come natural. The only thing that comes natural is target fixation and running into the guard rail, oncoming traffic, or crossing the center line that your trying to avoid.

If “feeling you have trouble initiating and executing a turn doesn’t matter” why is failure to negotiate a curve the second leading cause of motorcycle crashes?

 

[GrahamD]

Well, one thing I always try to do is use the handle bars for steering not holding. on the street or more accurately on predictable surfaces.

If I start to tense up, my riding suffers.

So I counter steer and follow the bike into the lean using a light grip. Works best for me but it is not something I find completely instinctive.

The theory yes but I do drift into a "fall into the corner" thing when I am tired and less alert.

I had the fortune of meeting a very experienced touring bike rider in my younger years who taght me a few things that works well for me.

Everyone, I suggest if you haven;t done it, go play with some gyroscopes. The front wheel off a push bike spinning fast in your hands is very instructive.

 

[snakebitten]

A trackday, combined with a bit of instruction from someone qualified to "instruct", is a marvelous experience for anyone who fancies himself a motorcyclists.

And I don't mean you have to show up on a rocket and try to set world record laptimes. Instead, it's simply a day of "environmentally friendly envelope pushing".

You may or may not get hooked on doing trackdays. But I promise you will leave that track with a huge leap forward in knowledge and experience of the forces at work while mounted on 2-wheels.

And for me, it finally slowed me down on the public roads. I was such a squid. After a track day, I was embarrassed to be one. Go do a day at the track, you'll know what I mean.

 

[creggur]

I can't believe these discussions actually come up on a forum such as this. I could see it on a new rider forum, but here? Or maybe I'm under the mistaken idea that most everyone here has years of riding experience because this is a forum for such a large, powerful (read: not a beginner) machine.

I'm also amazed that there are people who do have considerable experience, but will argue that counter steering is some sort of myth. All you have to do is go zig-zag through some cones in a parking lot at say, 20mph to experience it first-hand. You're never going to get the bike to move side to side quick enough without counter steering inputs on the handle bars. It's simply not possible.

I suppose most people are doing it without even realizing what they're doing - I'm no Rocket Surgeon but these aren't really tough concepts to grasp...

 

[Dallara]

...It's the lean that causes the bike to turn, not the front wheel...

No it's not. Leaning is what counteracts some other forces as the bike is turning. You can actually ride straight down the road with the bike leaned way over.

As Graham suggested, a bit of time with some gyroscopes, or just a bicycle wheel spinning between your arms will help in understanding all this a lot.

Dallara


~

 

[Salmon Sam]

Creggur, some extremely experienced riders are technical and analytical - others are primarily intuitive. Some want to know every detail of the mechanics of their machines and how they work and interact with the environment, and some just want to get on the bikes and feel their way through the paths to where they are going. There are extremely experienced riders on both ends and all shades in between. I am somewhere in between, but mostly ride for the sensation and experiences. I am continually amazed at the depth of tech-heads on this forum. Learned a lot, but every once and I while I have vibrating my lips with my forefinger, saying: "Huh?". Yes, the ideal would be that any motorcyclist should know every screw, nut and wire on their machines. I would love to know my bike inside and out and be able to tear it apart with a blindfold and put it back together (like many of you), but I have too many other interests and obligations these days. Just trying to find enough time to ride at this point.

Snakebitten - speaking of track days. I think I saw this discussed a while ago, but can't find the thread: do you know of anyone who has taken their ST to a track day? I know a Multistrada that has gone, but is the ST "sportbike" enough to get something out of it? I have been debating this to sharpen my skills.

 

[Firefight911]

do you know of anyone who has taken their ST to a track day? I know a Multistrada that has gone, but is the ST "sportbike" enough to get something out of it? I have been debating this to sharpen my skills.

If you plan on challenging Hayden, Rossi, or Marquez with it, don't go to the track. If your intent is to "sharpen the skill" you should take it to a track ASAP. It matters not what, it matters that you do. Harley, EX250, Honda Grom, moped, they're all the same. Ride to improve your skills, especially with the weapon you are riding. Learn the nuances of the bike, limits of lean angle, body positioning and line selection to maximize traction and minimize lean angle. Threshold braking, handling, suspension adjustment. No specialized motorcycle needed, just go.

The lat thing anyone should view a bike they ride as being "sportbike" enough for a track.

 

[snakebitten]

Trackdays that I have participated in are "Bring what you want" style.

Admittedly, 90% are repliracers.

But as long as you pass technical inspection, you're welcome.
I've seen Harley Vrods, BMW GS's, and lots of in-between "standards"

And if you are asking is there a real benefit for riding a non-sport-bike like the Tenere?
That depends. But not on which bike you bring. But whether you really are there to learn from the instruction. If you are, then absolutely you will learn the same dynamics on the Tenere as you would on a GSXR. It's the same "forces" at play. And it's the same "bad habits" they can identify and help you overcome.

Nothing wrong with showing up and just playing and enjoying the "safety" of a trackday environment. But I highly suggest the first couple of experiences being "instruction" track-days. And any bike without mirrors, glass that can break, and sumps that are oil leak proofed will be fun and a legitimate teaching platform.

Leave your ego in the truck, of course.

 

[Salmon Sam]

SB, Thanks. Sounds like high-siding is inevitable and that the first track days bike should be something "less dear"?
Used to have an ego, then I got married (23 years ago).

 

[snakebitten]

SB, Thanks. Sounds like high-siding is inevitable and that the first track days bike should be something "less dear"?
Used to have an ego, then I got married (23 years ago).

Well, I always say "Dress to crash". And I certainly think that's applies at a track-day.

But inevitable? Nope. Not at all. In fact, I've crashed a few times in my life. But never on a track day. And think about it........those were the days you actually probe the limits.

I also would like to report that my street riding AFTER my very first track-day, has been far less "close calls" than before.

It changes you. The way you ride, think, and make decisions. It doesn't reduce the amount of danger that exists on the streets. It just changes the way you coexist with it.

But screw all that!

It's an outright riot of fun! No cops. No tickets. No immovable objects to avoid. And it's all one-way traffic.

 

[Dallara]

~


Not to mention the great bunch of riders you will meet there, as well as the instructors.

Great opportunities to meet new friends and riding buddies.

Dallara


~

 

[creggur]

Creggur, some extremely experienced riders are technical and analytical - others are primarily intuitive. Some want to know every detail of the mechanics of their machines and how they work and interact with the environment, and some just want to get on the bikes and feel their way through the paths to where they are going. There are extremely experienced riders on both ends and all shades in between. I am somewhere in between, but mostly ride for the sensation and experiences. I am continually amazed at the depth of tech-heads on this forum. Learned a lot, but every once and I while I have vibrating my lips with my forefinger, saying: "Huh?". Yes, the ideal would be that any motorcyclist should know every screw, nut and wire on their machines. I would love to know my bike inside and out and be able to tear it apart with a blindfold and put it back together (like many of you), but I have too many other interests and obligations these days. Just trying to find enough time to ride at this point.

I'm not a hyper-analytical need to know every nut-and-bolt type...far from it.
But we're not talking about rebuilding engines, or even adjusting valves - we're talking about the most absolute basic means of controlling your bike going down the road, or even across a parking lot for that matter.

I just can't fathom the debate. It's not opinion, it's very, very simple physics, and the very means by which you control ANY two-wheeled form of transport...