Countersteering?

MojoToot

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Twisties said:
They do not agree...
Yes they agree...they are just describing it differently.

turn bars to the right to turn left.
same as..
press forward on left side of bars to turn left.

when you press forward on left you are also pulling back on right & "steering" or rotating handlebar right (clockwards-looking down on it)

If you are riding a trike or sidecar rig, you have direct steering...rotate bars clockwise/right you will turn right.

2 wheels above a crawl speed...countersteer ( opposite of direct steer)
 

Swagger

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Oh yeah .... any one, or all, of those nice ladies could steer me right off the straight and narrow. Note to self .... get one of those to help adjust riding and attitude .... 4LIFE first ::001::
 

Wanderer

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::026:: on the target fixation! I just can't imagine what will happen hitting any one of them let alone all three, maybe if I drop my entry speed and low side in just enough to ensure they fall on me without any physical damage to them or the bike. This could require practice. ::015::
Later,
Norm
 

MojoToot

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I guess I am just to old to get excitrd over cheerleader outfits...

MSF is great...but they try & keep things simple for newbies & newbies, in turn, accept everything as gospel.

Truth be told, sometimes you steer right while turning right....

and-YES-you are still countersteering.

Who knows the answer?
 

dcstrom

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most people are countersteering without even knowing it - they wouldn't be getting around corners at all otherwise.

If you doubt it, try this - ride into a corner as normal, but take one hand off the bars. Now one arm will have to generate the same force as two in order for the bike to "fall" into the corner. If you are turning right, and have your right hand on the bar, you'll have to push the bar away from you i.e. to the left. Now you can see and feel exactly how it works. With 2 hands on the bars you do it unconsciously, and force required is less so you don't notice it.
 

Twisties

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dcstrom said:
most people are countersteering without even knowing it - they wouldn't be getting around corners at all otherwise.

If you doubt it, try this - ride into a corner as normal, but take one hand off the bars. Now one arm will have to generate the same force as two in order for the bike to "fall" into the corner. If you are turning right, and have your right hand on the bar, you'll have to push the bar away from you i.e. to the left. Now you can see and feel exactly how it works. With 2 hands on the bars you do it unconsciously, and force required is less so you don't notice it.
I have tested the assertion by removing both hands from the bars, just covering the grips as closely as I can without touching, and leaning into the curve. If the counter steer theory is correct then I should not be able to initiate the turn, but in fact I am able to turn just fine by leaning the bike with no handle bar input. I can not rule out the idea that the wheel may be turning imperceptibly opposite the direction of travel, but seriously, I would think someone would have some video proof or at least a rational physics proof if that were the case.

I believe that what actually happens when you push on the bar is that you move your upper body weight into the turn and provide a handle bar input downwards to initiate the proper lean angle. Beyond that, I guarantee you that if you just try to steer (turn the bars) the wrong way into a turn without initiating lean you are going to find yourself in a world of hurt.

My understanding of what actually turns a bike at speed is the curvature of the front tire when leaned.
 

dcstrom

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Twisties said:
I have tested the assertion by removing both hands from the bars, just covering the grips as closely as I can without touching, and leaning into the curve. If the counter steer theory is correct then I should not be able to initiate the turn, but in fact I am able to turn just fine by leaning the bike with no handle bar input.
OK, yes you can do that. But it's a very slow way to get the bike to turn. Often/usually you will want it to turn faster. This video covers it well.

The Physics of Countersteering

Trevor
 

Twisties

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I agree with everything he says right up until the 2:35 mark. Then, magically, without the slightest explanation or use of physics, we come to the counter steering explanation, which, by the way, differs completely from every other version, and there are many, that I have seen.

I agree, steering by body lean with no handle bar input is too slow and imprecise for everyday street riding. You do need to use handlebar input. If by counter steer one simply means press left to go left, press right to go right, then I am on board. If one means, as is said in the image, steer right to turn left, then I remain entirely unconvinced.
 

MojoToot

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MojoToot said:
I guess I am just to old to get excitrd over cheerleader outfits...

MSF is great...but they try & keep things simple for newbies & newbies, in turn, accept everything as gospel.

Truth be told, sometimes you steer right while turning right....

and-YES-you are still countersteering.

Who knows the answer?
Body lean (weighting) is a hint for the answer to my question...
 

scott123007

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Twisties, what's next? The world is flat? Put your right hand on your left handlebar and your left hand on your right handlebar and go do some twisties, then come back here and tell us all about it (from your hospital room)

MojoToot, your riddle is not rocket science. Once the ass end of a bike steps out, you have to countersteer to a greater degree to keep from crashing, only now, you are actually going the same direction you are steering all the while maintaining the turn opposite to your input . Same as an automobile at this point.
 

MojoToot

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scott123007 said:
..........

MojoToot, your riddle is not rocket science. Once the ass end of a bike steps out, you have to countersteer to a greater degree to keep from crashing, only now, you are actually going the same direction you are steering all the while maintaining the turn opposite to your input . Same as an automobile at this point.
I wouldn't disagree with that but not the answer I'm looking for...not talking about lost traction...

We turn a 2-wheeled bike by a combination of things....weighting (body position) & handlebar input (steering).

They work as a combination...one influences the other.

Given that...when must you steer right in a right turn?

another hint...when you use this as a technique, you can help avoid loss of traction.
 

Twisties

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After doing a fair bit of reading.... It seems the origin of the counter steer belief is from the Wright Brothers, who made careful observations of bicycle riders. Apparently they observed the the slight wheel turn and the jog of the vehicle in the wrong direction at turn initiation. They did observe that the same thing happens whether you use the handle bars or just lean. Everyone since seems to have accepted the idea that this is in some way causes the lean in the proper direction. Everyone agrees that this is very slight, and causes instability. There is considerable disagreement as to whether this should be emphasized as a deliberate action, or not. Some view it as a natural consequence of riding that does not need to be taught. I did not find any detailed physics analysis.

My point is that smooth riders try to minimize instability and keep the counter steer to imperceptible levels. I go one step further. I view it as an unwelcome consequence of the actions needed to cause lean angle. A consequence of shifting one's weight or applying force to the handle bars, not an aid to establishing lean. An effect to be avoided to the extent possible in the course of normal street and sport riding.
 

Firefight911

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyn8vxr8Og0

Nope, no counter steering here. Move along, nothing to see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk which means there are more than likely spelling errors!
 

MojoToot

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Twisties said:
I have tested the assertion by removing both hands from the bars, just covering the grips as closely as I can without touching, and leaning into the curve. If the counter steer theory is correct then I should not be able to initiate the turn, but in fact I am able to turn just fine by leaning the bike with no handle bar input. I can not rule out the idea that the wheel may be turning.........
sure you can rule it out....weld your steering head so that the handlebars can't turn...
now try turning the bike by leaning...

FYI....IT WON'T
 

Dallara

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~


Like it or, you proponents of "lean steering" who claim countersteering, etc. doesn't exist, or is a figment of the imagination of all the mechanical engineers in the world, and that you can somehow cheat the laws of physics are either very new to the sport or not doing your homework - period. You can believe whatever you wish, but you can't argue with physics. It's the law... ::025::

If you think you are *not* countersteering when you try to do your "lean steering", etc. you are dead wrong. Like it or not, the bike itself countersteers. There are a couple of things happening when you countersteer, but the major forces have to do with the gyroscopic precession of the wheels, the effect of literally driving the front wheel (when it's on the ground) out from under the center of mass and it falling earthward, and camber thrust of the tires. It's all a bit more complex than that, but that's a nice simple explanation. Don't believe me? Watch the video, and make sure you watch it until the end...

counter steering-keith code

Then read this book...

http://www.amazon.com/Motorcycle-Dynamics-Vittore-Cossalter/dp/1430308613/sr=11-1/qid=1163263809/ref=sr_11_1/002-1582845-5856052

Which condenses a ton of wonderful information from the only university in the entire world where the entire curriculum is the study of motorcycle dynamics...

http://www.dinamoto.it/dinamoto/index_eng.html

These books will help you a ton, too...

http://www.tonyfoale.com/book.htm

As will this site...

http://www.tonyfoale.com/

And reading a few of these articles will perhaps begin to allow you to understand motorcycle design, handling dynamics, and steering effects.

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/index.htm

Get back to us once you've done your homework. ::017::

OK, now can we get back to the girls?


Dallara



~
 

Swagger

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Dallara said:
..... OK, now can we get back to the girls? ....
Thank *~!^ for that .... I don't want to read stuff. I just want to ride my bike and you've all been worrying me that I need to go back to school and obtain some highfalutin doctorate just so as I can go out on my bike and have half a chance of being able to turn the bike enough to get back home ::)

Now I'm gonna start a poll about counter, steer and 4life


Seriously though it is amazing what we're trying to do when we climb aboard our machines ..... all they actually want to do is fall over. We spend a significant amount of our time and effort executing complex mathematical calculations just to move forward in a straight line. Well I don't .... cos I'm a grunt soldier without two brain cells to rub together .... I know this cos a very clever gentleman told me that this morning. ???
 
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