Yamaha's response to "Hard Start"

[cosmic]

Re: Yamaha's response to "Hard Start"

It happened to me few times over the past 38kkm. I cannot draw any conclusion why this is happening. There is no pattern at all. At least not in my case.
Sometimes I crank it after 8 weeks of absence (no batt. Tender) and it starts right away. Other times I left it with tender, and after the same period it would not start. Go figure that out.
Same goes with the dropping rpm's. Happened a lot with brand new plugs, and now, after 8kkm, it's working like a charm.
Strange bike...

 

[Skimo]

I recently experienced the no start issue. I don't go on the forums much so I wasn't aware of a pattern issue with this at all, so I approached this just like any other no start issue I've had. I happen to be an automobile technician and have dealt with no start issues hundreds of times with cars. I recognized that it might be flooded because I would occasionally get a pop indicating there was ignition occurring at least at some level. I know about WOT clear flood mode and pretty quickly tried this but it still would not start. Came back next day and still no start even with WOT. Came back a few days later and still would not start. The battery lives on a tender and I never allowed the battery to wear down completely, but stopped when it noticeably cranked slower.

So when I had some time, I decided to pull it down and see what I could see. I pulled the tank and associated panels to get access to the plugs and then remembered that I had purchased an extended warranty, and why should I do this in a cold garage when Yamaha should be doing this? I honestly expected that I had a bad fuel pump at this point. I called AAA and had them tow it to the dealer. Got a call from the dealer a few days later and they said the plugs were fouled and I owed them $250. They've not seen this problem. Kinda pissed off at myself for not following thru and kinda pissed off at the dealer for charging me. But they may not be able to get reimbursed for warranty claims for this issue from Yamaha, so I guess that's just the way it goes. Wish I had researched this on the forum first.

Just thought I'd document this here so we can see the extent of the problem. Mines a first generation 2012.

Well I'm about to be in the same boat, 12 model ($11,000 bike) purchased 10 months ago used as daily commuter with about 8500 miles now. Ran great on ride home Friday couple weeks ago. It set two days and Monday morning cranks but no fire. I took the old DR350 ($500.00 bike) kick start only bike to work. Tried again Tuesday morning after being on the battery tender. Crank still no fire. Never had this problem before. Towed to dealer Wednesday. They still have it and not a word from them until I finally emailed service manager last night as to status of the bike. Got email stating fouled plugs and bad gas but they did submit as warranty claim but did not think it will be approved. I clearly stated my position that gas does go bad in two days and it ran fine on Friday. When it was towed it had about half tank left so its not like I purchased bad gas somewhere and ran a half tank through it and not notice a problem. Sounds like BS to me and I'm going to get stuck with the bill. And yes the 500 dollar bike is still taking me to work on the second kick everyday.

 

[tomatocity]

Well I'm about to be in the same boat, 12 model ($11,000 bike) purchased 10 months ago used as daily commuter with about 8500 miles now. Ran great on ride home Friday couple weeks ago. It set two days and Monday morning cranks but no fire. I took the old DR350 ($500.00 bike) kick start only bike to work. Tried again Tuesday morning after being on the battery tender. Crank still no fire. Never had this problem before. Towed to dealer Wednesday. They still have it and not a word from them until I finally emailed service manager last night as to status of the bike. Got email stating fouled plugs and bad gas but they did submit as warranty claim but did not think it will be approved. I clearly stated my position that gas does go bad in two days and it ran fine on Friday. When it was towed it had about half tank left so its not like I purchased bad gas somewhere and ran a half tank through it and not notice a problem. Sounds like BS to me and I'm going to get stuck with the bill. And yes the 500 dollar bike is still taking me to work on the second kick everyday.

Just a Thought: This engine has a history of loose spark plugs or spark plugs that do not get tightened properly. Loose plugs could reduce compression and increase hard starting. The spark plugs in my Super Tenere were loose at the first valve check. The dealer thought I had messed with them and I assured them I had not. My Tenere ran much better with new spark plugs and properly torqued.

 

[Skimo]

Just a Thought: This engine has a history of loose spark plugs or spark plugs that do not get tightened properly. Loose plugs could reduce compression and increase hard starting. The spark plugs in my Super Tenere were loose at the first valve check. The dealer thought I had messed with them and I assured them I had not. My Tenere ran much better with new spark plugs and properly torqued.

I'll keep that in mind. Apparently they replaced the plug saying they were fouled. My question to the service manager is going to be how where the plugs fouled? If the answer is excessive carbon, then the next question would be isn't this a sign of an over fueling issue (rich condition)? Wouldn't that be some type of fuel mapping problem? I shouldn't have fouled plugs at 8500 miles and bad gas is a bogus excuse. Now I would agree if the plugs were excessive carbon fouled it could be hard to start but the question is what caused the fouling?

 

[markjenn]

I'll keep that in mind. Apparently they replaced the plug saying they were fouled. My question to the service manager is going to be how where the plugs fouled? If the answer is excessive carbon, then the next question would be isn't this a sign of an over fueling issue (rich condition)? Wouldn't that be some type of fuel mapping problem? I shouldn't have fouled plugs at 8500 miles and bad gas is a bogus excuse. Now I would agree if the plugs were excessive carbon fouled it could be hard to start but the question is what caused the fouling?

I assume you didn't try WOT or pulling the fuel pump fuse? The plugs were likely gas-fouled due to the repeated start attempts. Swapping the plugs fixed the condition by unfouling the plugs and letting the excessive gas dissipate from the combustion chambers, but if you or the dealer didn't try WOT, that probably would have been an easier solution.

Why did the bike not initially start like it was supposed to? That's the $10K question that has been discussed for a couple thousand posts on this board.

- Mark

 

[Rasher]

Mine seems to start best if I live it for weeks one end...

... every winter it will site for 6-8 weeks between starts, and normally literally starts the second I press the starter, having had a couple of hard starts I always dread firing up after a long lay-off and it always bursts right into life without cranking at all.

 

[tomatocity]

I'll keep that in mind. Apparently they replaced the plug saying they were fouled. My question to the service manager is going to be how where the plugs fouled? If the answer is excessive carbon, then the next question would be isn't this a sign of an over fueling issue (rich condition)? Wouldn't that be some type of fuel mapping problem? I shouldn't have fouled plugs at 8500 miles and bad gas is a bogus excuse. Now I would agree if the plugs were excessive carbon fouled it could be hard to start but the question is what caused the fouling?

Yamaha is very aware of the Excessive Carbon Buildup. My Tenere is in the shop with a huge CCT warranty repair. Read "2012 in the Shop". The first thing the dealer mechanic noticed was Excessive Carbon Buildup. Yamaha tried to to blame it on the rider for lugging the engine. I spoke with the service manager and asked him how a rider is supposed to ride a 7750 rpm engine. An engine that has a big gas mileage falloff after 4,000 rpms. An engine that is praised for its lowend power torque by the magazines. I ended up nicely talking to a Yamaha representative and corrected his knowledge when he did not know the redline of this 1200 cc engine. When the dealership took the valve cover off they changed their opinion of what was wrong with my engine. The CCT had failed and the exhaust cam was almost 180* out of time. From there everything got better. The dealership was behind me and the service manager found the right warranty representative.
Don't think the CCT Failure and Excessive Carbon Buildup are related other than mileage, approx 50,000 miles. Excessive Carbon Buildup can cause poor performance through detonation and not allowing valves to close 100%. Does Yamaha have an answer for what is causing the ECB... nothing they are telling the public. A solution to ECB is to use Yamalube Ring Free plus. My thread will show you what the carbon buildup looks like and the before and after when using Yamaha Ring Free Plus. Thanks to BWC and Jaeger22 for their excellent information and photos.

Why don't we know about this product... it is advertised for watercraft. The service department did not suggest using it until they saw my engine. Since then they check another Tenere with less miles and found the same thing. They convinced the rider to use Yamalube Ring Free Plus by removing his TB's and showing him the carbon buildup on his intake valves.
Is using Yamalube Ring Free Plus an additional cost... Yes. Is it an inconvenience... Yes. Is it worth seeing the end result... YES!

Many miles of a clean combustion chamber, better performance, better gas mileage, a clean fuel tank, and no related problems for future miles.

 

[Purificator81]

Re: Yamaha's response to "Hard Start"

Am I wrong in thinking that, everything is equal, the CCT is behind all the mess that happens to the engine from valves to carbon build? A failed CCT will not happen on spot but will happen gradually: the adjustments of the chain slips slowly so that the may be valves start to not close entirely which then affect the bearings and so forth...since I red the stories about it I FREAKED OUT! i am not touching my S10 until I receive the APE manual CCT...even if I hear no sound at start up I don't want the process to start taking place slowly....I might be wrong but this gives me peace of mind...



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[Skimo]

I assume you didn't try WOT or pulling the fuel pump fuse? The plugs were likely gas-fouled due to the repeated start attempts. Swapping the plugs fixed the condition by unfouling the plugs and letting the excessive gas dissipate from the combustion chambers, but if you or the dealer didn't try WOT, that probably would have been an easier solution.

Why did the bike not initially start like it was supposed to? That's the $10K question that has been discussed for a couple thousand posts on this board.

- Mark

Yep all that and no go after two days of trying to get it started. I'm sort of the opinion, that I shouldn't to do all these things to get the bike to start. Really is disappointing for such a nice bike. My understanding is they replace the plugs, fuel fouled plugs don't need replacing just drying.

 

[autoteach]

Re: Yamaha's response to "Hard Start"

Am I wrong in thinking that, everything is equal, the CCT is behind all the mess that happens to the engine from valves to carbon build? A failed CCT will not happen on spot but will happen gradually: the adjustments of the chain slips slowly so that the may be valves start to not close entirely which then affect the bearings and so forth...since I red the stories about it I FREAKED OUT! i am not touching my S10 until I receive the APE manual CCT...even if I hear no sound at start up I don't want the process to start taking place slowly....I might be wrong but this gives me peace of mind...



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To answer your question in a concise manner, No.

 

[arjayes]

Yamaha is very aware of the Excessive Carbon Buildup. My Tenere is in the shop with a huge CCT warranty repair. Read "2012 in the Shop". The first thing the dealer mechanic noticed was Excessive Carbon Buildup. Yamaha tried to to blame it on the rider for lugging the engine. I spoke with the service manager and asked him how a rider is supposed to ride a 7750 rpm engine. An engine that has a big gas mileage falloff after 4,000 rpms. An engine that is praised for its lowend power torque by the magazines. I ended up nicely talking to a Yamaha representative and corrected his knowledge when he did not know the redline of this 1200 cc engine. When the dealership took the valve cover off they changed their opinion of what was wrong with my engine. The CCT had failed and the exhaust cam was almost 180* out of time. From there everything got better. The dealership was behind me and the service manager found the right warranty representative.
Don't think the CCT Failure and Excessive Carbon Buildup are related other than mileage, approx 50,000 miles. Excessive Carbon Buildup can cause poor performance through detonation and not allowing valves to close 100%. Does Yamaha have an answer for what is causing the ECB... nothing they are telling the public. A solution to ECB is to use Yamalube Ring Free plus. My thread will show you what the carbon buildup looks like and the before and after when using Yamaha Ring Free Plus. Thanks to BWC and Jaeger22 for their excellent information and photos.

Why don't we know about this product... it is advertised for watercraft. The service department did not suggest using it until they saw my engine. Since then they check another Tenere with less miles and found the same thing. They convinced the rider to use Yamalube Ring Free Plus by removing his TB's and showing him the carbon buildup on his intake valves.
Is using Yamalube Ring Free Plus an additional cost... Yes. Is it an inconvenience... Yes. Is it worth seeing the end result... YES!

Many miles of a clean combustion chamber, better performance, better gas mileage, a clean fuel tank, and no related problems for future miles.

This really is great information, and I've read the other posts about it as well. I even ordered some Ring Free Plus from Amazon. But it makes me wonder about the Nick Sanders trip. The engine tear-down afterward supposedly showed the engine internals looking pristine, as in no signs of use at all. I'm guessing he wasn't adding Ring Free Plus to his tank, and he used crap gas on top of that. But obviously he was on the throttle hard during the majority of the trip. So maybe how you ride (i.e., how you use the throttle) does have a big impact on carbon buildup? That would make sense to me but I have NO science to back it up.

Anyway, could be a good excuse to wring the throttle once in a while (not that some of us need any extra encouragement)! ::26::

 

[autoteach]

I always "clean out the carbon". I especially do it when I get nominated as designated driver and we use someones car other than mine.

 

[tomatocity]

This really is great information, and I've read the other posts about it as well. I even ordered some Ring Free Plus from Amazon. But it makes me wonder about the Nick Sanders trip. The engine tear-down afterward supposedly showed the engine internals looking pristine, as in no signs of use at all. I'm guessing he wasn't adding Ring Free Plus to his tank, and he used crap gas on top of that. But obviously he was on the throttle hard during the majority of the trip. So maybe how you ride (i.e., how you use the throttle) does have a big impact on carbon buildup? That would make sense to me but I have NO science to back it up.

Anyway, could be a good excuse to wring the throttle once in a while (not that some of us need any extra encouragement)! ::26::

I agree with you that we don't have any science in support of why there is carbon buildup. Science is based on facts and no on talk. I would like to know more about Nick Sanders trip. How he rode (RPMs) would be the first. Don't take this negatively but for the interest of science and what could become a big problem... Who bought Nick's Super Tenere and who did the tear-down and report. Was there any photos of the combustion chamber and valves?

A true survey could be found at rally where there are 50-100 Super Tenere's. Lift the tank, pull the TB's, inspect the intake valves. The plus would be everybody gets a fresh TB Sync and Yamaha would have a good cross section of carbon buildup at what miles. The dealer service department I go to did this for the next Super Tenere owner that came in for service. The owner was reluctant in the beginning and now is a user of Yamaha Ring Free Plus... but I live in a Crap Gas state with a lot of ethanol in out gasoline.

 

[Purificator81]

Re: Yamaha's response to "Hard Start"

To answer your question in a concise manner, No.

No I am not wrong or No the failed CCT is not the real cause?


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[autoteach]

You are wrong in your assumption. "variable" cam timing wont cause carbon build up.

 

[La Knee]

Re: Yamaha's response to "Hard Start"

I havent had a hard start issue yet but i will say this bike blows ALOT of black smoke when i start her up. This is not a good sign considering the bike only has 1200 miles. I have had about 25 dirt and street bikes and none have done this ( Besides the two stroke)

 

[Juan]

I have a habit of pouring a small measure of Sikolene ProBoost whenever I add fuel in the tank. I have been doing this for a number of years, also with other bikes. One of the benefits of this additive is its cleaning effect. Keeping an engine clean is always much easier than having to clean an engine.

 

[tomatocity]

I have a habit of pouring a small measure of Sikolene ProBoost whenever I add fuel in the tank. I have been doing this for a number of years, also with other bikes. One of the benefits of this additive is its cleaning effect. Keeping an engine clean is always much easier than having to clean an engine.

Next time you are doing a TB Sync... remove the TB's and look at the intake valves. I would be interested in seeing photos. If Silkolene ProBoost works that would be another solution.

 

[SilverBullet]

At 13,000 miles I started getting the CCT noise so now at 14,000 miles I wasn't surprised today to get a hard start occurence. I felt I was now fully indoctrinated into the idiosyncrasies of the Tenere. I had just washed the bike for ease of doing tire changes and when I hit the starter it sounded funny and didn't light up. Having read about this issue plenty I immediately went WOT and continued cranking in 2-3 second intervals. Still wouldn't start and I could smell gas so surely flooded good and battery started to slow a little so I stopped. Put it on a charger and figured would let it clear out some overninght by evaporation and try again in the morning. Then came inside and thought I would read up on the hard start again as maybe something new posted. As I was opening the forum it came to me with a bang. Oh what an idiot I am. I haven't even tried to start it yet but I know it will and I want the battery to get fully charged first before I try. I did this once about 2 years ago on my Husky but in that case it actually started but sounded and ran like crap.

A picture speaks a thousand words...what you can't see is that this is hidden pretty good behind my Jesse bag.



_

 

[True Grip]