Soft rims

[Cruiser]

So maintenance is the key. We should hear more about this issue from others.

 

[EricV]

FWIW, I have noted in reading the various threads on the spoke subject, that like oil changes, US bikes have a 4000 mile interval, and the rest of the world has a 6200 mile/10,000 km interval. Things that make you go hmmmm. Seems to suggest that it's not all that critical, whereas the direct experience of some is that it most certainly is.

OTOH, if you're getting air on the Alcan at 180 kph... you should probably expect some wheel issues. )

Funny thing, I always figured that the tire would absorb a significant amount of impact shock. And the suspension. Oh well, I'll check my spokes more often. Of course, my brother in law can break a hammer too, and it doesn't have any moving parts. ???

 

[Tremor38]

FWIW, I have noted in reading the various threads on the spoke subject, that like oil changes, US bikes have a 4000 mile interval, and the rest of the world has a 6200 mile/10,000 km interval. Things that make you go hmmmm. Seems to suggest that it's not all that critical, whereas the direct experience of some is that it most certainly is.

OTOH, if you're getting air on the Alcan at 180 kph... you should probably expect some wheel issues. )

Funny thing, I always figured that the tire would absorb a significant amount of impact shock. And the suspension. Oh well, I'll check my spokes more often. Of course, my brother in law can break a hammer too, and it doesn't have any moving parts. ???

Yes, the common denominator seems to be people taking their bikes over some pretty knarly sufaces at more than a docile pace. Zip ties as a prevention measure is starting to look like the best option. Who the heck is gonna want to stop and adjust spokes every hour or so?...even if it's only during the initial 'bedding-in' period.

 

[EricV]

Yes, the common denominator seems to be people taking their bikes over some pretty knarly sufaces at more than a docile pace. Zip ties as a prevention measure is starting to look like the best option. Who the heck is gonna want to stop and adjust spokes every hour or so?...even if it's only during the initial 'bedding-in' period.

Well, I was on the fence about the zip ties, but am going to do that today. I suppose then I will need to watch for zip ties breaking over time too. ;D I would think that most of us are rather past any "bedding in" period now. At 10k now, so will watch them for the next 6k miles or so and if nothing comes loose may not worry too much about this except for days when I'm riding extra gnarly conditions or spending all day off pavement. And that will happen more next year with the trip to AK.

I'm a big fan of preventative maintenance. I will probably check the spokes in Hyder, then again after running the Cassier Hwy up to the Alcan, and if everything is good there, not stress too much while riding up to Fairbanks, but likely check again there before either heading back down or doing the 500 miles of mostly gravel/dirt/who knows what depending on weather, to Prudhoe.

 

[Tremor38]

Well, I was on the fence about the zip ties, but am going to do that today. I suppose then I will need to watch for zip ties breaking over time too. ;D I would think that most of us are rather past any "bedding in" period now. At 10k now, so will watch them for the next 6k miles or so and if nothing comes loose may not worry too much about this except for days when I'm riding extra gnarly conditions or spending all day off pavement. And that will happen more next year with the trip to AK.

I'm a big fan of preventative maintenance. I will probably check the spokes in Hyder, then again after running the Cassier Hwy up to the Alcan, and if everything is good there, not stress too much while riding up to Fairbanks, but likely check again there before either heading back down or doing the 500 miles of mostly gravel/dirt/who knows what depending on weather, to Prudhoe.

Sounds like a good plan. That, and a small bag of spoke nipples, should see you through. ;D

 

[toompine]

It takes some seriously convoluted logic to pitch a higher maintenance wheel as a design feature.

- Mark

mark, maybe the connection between "design feature" and maintenance was a bit misconstrued. Wire wheels are a design feature of off road bikes because they absorb impact better than mag wheels without damage and destruction to the wheel. Think about the spokes as really strong rubber bands. Take a hit on the wheels and the bottom ones compact (bend) and the top ones stretch. This lowers the absorbed impact on the rim surface because it quickly distributes the load. A mag wheel needs a stronger rim and stronger mag spoke because the linear path of the force has less area to distribute over and less paths of force travel. It therefore is a heavier rim than a spoked rim and more subject to impact damage. Not a probelm on the road, big problem off road. So for the "design feature"of a wheel that is lighter and less subject to impact damage you get a trade off of somthing to maintain.

By the way it is the compacting (bending) and stretching that causes the spokes to work loose. As you constatly add and remove load to the spoke nipples they "work" against the threads of the spokes and in the nipple seat. If we had a really persistant problem on a nipple we added a little blue loctite but I do not generally reccomend that. Spokes are "tuned" much like a guitar string and adding locktite makes it hard to adjust them. Zip ties or safetly wire are a good add for spoked wheels. It does not keep them from loosening, just from damaging something if one comes loose. I personlly like safetywire as it is less visible. Be sure and use stainless steel wire

 

[EricV]

Zip ties or safetly wire are a good add for spoked wheels. It does not keep them from loosening, just from damaging something if one comes loose. I personlly like safetywire as it is less visible. Be sure and use stainless steel wire

In this vein, I considered safety wire, as I have a spool of .032 ss safety wire in the garage, but was wondering if I wanted to do that or zip ties. How snug are you doing the safety wire? I typically use my wire twister pliers, so a couple of loops around the junction and the pliers and it would be fairly snug. Ok, or is loose better?

I guess I'd have similar questions about zip ties, as to how snug to go, but you can't really get those as tight as safety wire. I do feel that zip ties will die from ultraviolet exposure eventually, and probably need to be replaced every season.

Comments? Opinions?

 

[markjenn]

mark, maybe the connection between "design feature" and maintenance was a bit misconstrued. Wire wheels are a design feature of off road bikes because they absorb impact better than mag wheels without damage and destruction to the wheel. Think about the spokes as really strong rubber bands. Take a hit on the wheels and the bottom ones compact (bend) and the top ones stretch. This lowers the absorbed impact on the rim surface because it quickly distributes the load. A mag wheel needs a stronger rim and stronger mag spoke because the linear path of the force has less area to distribute over and less paths of force travel. It therefore is a heavier rim than a spoked rim and more subject to impact damage. Not a probelm on the road, big problem off road. So for the "design feature"of a wheel that is lighter and less subject to impact damage you get a trade off of somthing to maintain.

Yes, I agree, wire wheels in general are a more forgiving wheel of abuse. They'll get you out of the boonies with a bent wheel that continues to hold air rather than a cracked wheel that won't. And they're more repairable. I choose the S10 in some part because it has wire wheels. My issue is not with wire wheels, its with the S10's wire wheels.

- Mark

 

[markjenn]

In this vein, I considered safety wire, as I have a spool of .032 ss safety wire in the garage, but was wondering if I wanted to do that or zip ties. How snug are you doing the safety wire? I typically use my wire twister pliers, so a couple of loops around the junction and the pliers and it would be fairly snug. Ok, or is loose better?

I guess I'd have similar questions about zip ties, as to how snug to go, but you can't really get those as tight as safety wire. I do feel that zip ties will die from ultraviolet exposure eventually, and probably need to be replaced every season.

Comments? Opinions?

Either safety wire or zip ties would both work fine, either one "snug" rather than as tight as you can get them. I'd go with zip ties as it would be much easier to do. There is also no risk of nicking the wire and creating a stress riser, either with tools or with the wire itself, although you'd have to be pretty ham-fisted to do this.

I wouldn't worry about durability of the zip ties - these things will be around in the next ice age. We're not talking about something here which is a vital fastener or has serious stresses - we're talking about a stopgap doo-hickey to keep the spoke from flailing about in the unlikely event you don't catch a loosening spoke during normal checks/maintenance.

- Mark

 

[elizilla]

On the subject of putting locktite on spokes... I have never owned a motorcycle with spoked wheels before, but I strung and trued my own bicycle wheels, back in the day. The experience I had with that was that if you ride the bicycle through the winter, you might as well just cut the spokes and throw them away in the spring, because the corrosion in the spoke nipples would make it impossible to true the wheel. Turning a nipple to tighten or loosen a spoke required huge force, and when it did go it would be with a sharp snap that turned it too far - the precision needed to true the wheel properly was no longer available. I would be afraid that putting locktite on spoke nipples would give very similar results.

I haven't had any trouble with mine, but the 5000 miles I have traveled so far has been almost entirely on pavement. I think I will put the zip ties on before spring, and look into acquiring a few spoke nipples for my traveling kit, though.

 

[3putt]

I like the info in this thread, but after some pretty rough riding this summer (3500 miles) and now with over 9000 miles plus 2 rear tire changes, I will just ride and check the spokes.

On my last tire change (took the half used K60 off and replaced with my OE EXP), I put a dial gauge on the wheel on a balancing stand. I am used to dialing in a workpiece with my four jaw chuck on the lathe, but this was pretty different. Took a while but I got it pretty close to true, but found in doing so the torque values will not be very consistent between spokes. I tended to tighten the already tight ones a bit more so as to add some more to the looser ones, if that makes sense.

I believe to get all the spokes to the same torque, would require many hours, if at all possible and keep the wheel true in the two axes.

 

[Tremor38]

Re: Re: Soft rims

I like the info in this thread, but after some pretty rough riding this summer (3500 miles) and now with over 9000 miles plus 2 rear tire changes, I will just ride and check the spokes.

On my last tire change (took the half used K60 off and replaced with my OE EXP), I put a dial gauge on the wheel on a balancing stand. I am used to dialing in a workpiece with my four jaw chuck on the lathe, but this was pretty different. Took a while but I got it pretty close to true, but found in doing so the torque values will not be very consistent between spokes. I tended to tighten the already tight ones a bit more so as to add some more to the looser ones, if that makes sense.

I believe to get all the spokes to the same torque, would require many hours, if at all possible and keep the wheel true in the two axes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been on some fairly rough terrain, and have yet to lose a spoke nipple? This leads me to believe that the lost nipples happen as the result of some pretty knarley rim hits that are above and beyond what most people will experience.

 

[Yamaguy55]

On the subject of putting locktite on spokes... I have never owned a motorcycle with spoked wheels before, but I strung and trued my own bicycle wheels, back in the day. The experience I had with that was that if you ride the bicycle through the winter, you might as well just cut the spokes and throw them away in the spring, because the corrosion in the spoke nipples would make it impossible to true the wheel. Turning a nipple to tighten or loosen a spoke required huge force, and when it did go it would be with a sharp snap that turned it too far - the precision needed to true the wheel properly was no longer available. I would be afraid that putting locktite on spoke nipples would give very similar results.

I haven't had any trouble with mine, but the 5000 miles I have traveled so far has been almost entirely on pavement. I think I will put the zip ties on before spring, and look into acquiring a few spoke nipples for my traveling kit, though.

::026::

If you put Kroil or TriFlow on the spokes/nipples, they will stay unseized (can't think of a better term) which is the state you want them in anyway. pretty hard to properly adjust spokes once you've glued them in. For the truly paranoid, a proper wax based preservative such as cosmoline will do the trick. I doubt it is needed by most of us.

If there are truly problems with the spokes or rims, which remains to be proven (unattended/improperly maintained wire wheels does not equal material problems) I would go to:
http://www.buchananspokes.net/ and do it right. These guys have been at it a very long time, and are the proper place for any wire wheel problems. If the stock spokes aren't up to the job, I'll bet these guys can get you ones that are. At this point, I am skeptical about the average rider having problems. Heavy usage under extreme circumstances will of course require frequent adjustment/replacement.

I've owned over 100 bikes since the sixties (all but seven used), and all but five have had wire wheels. I make it a practice to check the wheels and fasteners frequently. I consider it part of ownership. After you get a feel for what needs attention, you adjust you schedule accordingly. I have never had any problems with wire wheels that weren't my fault; hitting bowling ball sized rocks is a good example of something that I would call my fault. No wheels do well under those conditions. Most spokes take a set after an unspecified amount of use, and settle down and require little if any attention. I had to go over my WR250R wheels a few times since I got it, as it is used primarily on very rough, rocky terrain. I think I had to snug up a few spokes each time, and now they have stabilized and require nothing more than checks, no adjustments. Considering that the rim end of the Tenere wheels is a flange, not a hole through the rim proper, I would expect these wheels to take a bit longer to seat. If you do your wheel checks and tweaks like you should, I would expect the same reliability from our Teneres.

For really grueling off road use, I would convert my wheels to conventional spoked rims complete with rim strips, rim locks and tubes. But a 575 pound base weight motorcycle used that way will need attention in every department, not just wheels. Sort of like taking your F250 off road and fording rivers, climbing rocks, jumping ditches: it will do it, but your maintenance schedule just got really intensive, with the parts replacement schedule up there as well.

Just my .00000005 cents worth.

 

[vilageidgit]

the guys at CMG Online had a dented rim too on their long term review

http://cmgonline.com/content/view/3466/57/

 

[Combo]

I don't understand bending rims?

Let's see................. almost 600 pound motorcycle, + 200 lb rider + 25 lbs of gear/add ons minimum and riding in rough conditions.

 

[stevepsd]

Re: Re: Soft rims

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been on some fairly rough terrain, and have yet to lose a spoke nipple? This leads me to believe that the lost nipples happen as the result of some pretty knarley rim hits that are above and beyond what most people will experience.

I too have been on pretty extreme, very rocky terrain (rock impacts enough to crack the welds on my AltRider skidplate), but have not lost a nipple. I did check and adjust a couple of spokes at the 600 miles mark (about 150 miles off-road at that point - but not the carnage ride - that came later), but have had no spoke issues since. Rims still true (which I am amazed based upon how many rocks I bounced off of) , spokes ok (ping check), no lost or loose nipples.

 

[tc9988]

the guys at CMG Online had a dented rim too on their long term review

http://cmgonline.com/content/view/3466/57/

I'd be willing to bet the maintenance level on the test bike was pretty minimal. Maybe these guys bent a rim hitting the curb going to Starbucks, maybe they were running 15 psi on the Translab. They have no idea how it happened. Accounts from owners like Stevepsd who can tell us their maintenance and operating history are far more credible and useful in determining whether there are in fact any problems with the ST rims other than normal maintenance

 

[Combo]

I'd be willing to bet the maintenance level on the test bike was pretty minimal. Maybe these guys bent a rim hitting the curb going to Starbucks, maybe they were running 15 psi on the Translab. They have no idea how it happened. Accounts from owners like Stevepsd who can tell us their maintenance and operating history are far more credible and useful in determining whether there are in fact any problems with the ST rims other than normal maintenance

::008::

 

[markjenn]

Some of you are in a state of denial. Any one incident, whether a rim failure or a rim that has stood up to abuse without failure, is anecdotal, but there are WAY too many problems being reported across the board, for both bikes that have been beat to heck and those that have been pampered, to conclude there isn't a problem here. The full extent remains to be seen but there IS a problem.

- Mark

 

[Tremor38]

Some of you are in a state of denial. Any one incident, whether a rim failure or a rim that has stood up to abuse without failure, is anecdotal, but there are WAY too many problems being reported across the board, for both bikes that have been beat to heck and those that have been pampered, to conclude there isn't a problem here. The full extent remains to be seen but there IS a problem.

- Mark

This coming from someone who poo, poos at the "WAY too many problems being reported across the board" on BMW final drives and a host of other BMW problems....as well as saying the S10 OEM tall screen is the best thing since sliced bread. ::005::

Go ahead and keep that chest puffed out. Tell us more about your choke hold on reality. ::017:: Why do so many of your posts carry such pompous tone?

BTW, I believe there is a problem but don't feel it warrants being condescending.