Soft rims

[motopan]

Hi team,
During our 26,000 km ride from Chiriqui, Panama to both US coasts and back, we experienced distortion to both front & rear rims on our new "silver S10" and so far have lost 5 (five) spokes out of the rear wheel. Also, with only 1000 miles on, the original rear tire split, just left of center, causing us to replace it on our dime. In spite of the fact that we have 6 long rides planed for this season, (Columbia by sail boat for a month & return, Mexico at a Yoga retreat for a month, a month around Lake Gatun where "The Canal" passes, another few weeks exploring the "Darien Gap", a couple of weeks up at Lake Atitlan, Guatemala doing some Hang Gliding, and various shorter trips exploring our new country) it looks like we'll be renting something 'till they get us a new set of rims & spokes.
We chose the S10 based on the famous reputation of Yamaha, and the fact that I put over 80.000 miles on my 1984 Venture. At the moment, my rear wheel is at Yamaha HQ in Pan City being analyzed by their engineers as to why it no longer holds air.
My question is; Have any of you had, or heard of, any similar challenges with the S10 up in the States??
We're looking forward to any input.
Thanks, Gary & Jennifer ( Motopan )

 

[spasm]

this wheel thing and spoke problem looks like its going to become a problem for many owners, maybe yamaha would have the decentcy to recall ALL bikes and do some checks on our wheels or replace them with something SAFER.
since i checked mine and found a couple of loose ones it's constantly on my mind when riding, do i need this paranoia NOOOOOO

 

[jozmoto]

Seems to me, after building and truing many a moto wheels over the years, that the torque value for these spokes is a little low. A couple more NM and/or green thread lock should solve the problem.

 

[yukondood]

I would agree, they are a bit soft. My first distance ride was to TOk Alaska. For those that have made the ride, know the frost heaves between Haines Junction and Tok are world famous and a test. As much fun as it was to get air time at 160-180km/h, myslef and the bike wanted more of it. However I then noticed loose spokes and wheel misformation. Not sure if this is a recall or simply look to a stonger aftermarket wheel and spoke.

Very interested in hearing if a guy could just replace spokes or just or wheel or have to shell out the loot for both???

 

[HoebSTer]

since i checked mine and found a couple of loose ones it's constantly on my mind when riding, do i need this paranoia NOOOOOO

Spasm, I don't think you need to have any paranoia!!! There are tons of bikes that have been beating the ground with these wheels to ensure us that this is/was a fluke. For all spoked wheels, tightening is part of REGULAR maintenance. I have never had spokes before this, and I know that spoke tightening will be a regular thing to ensure a straight and tight wheel.
One incident like this surely doesn't mean the end of all our wheels!!!

Jeff

 

[spasm]

Spasm, I don't think you need to have any paranoia!!! There are tons of bikes that have been beating the ground with these wheels to ensure us that this is/was a fluke. For all spoked wheels, tightening is part of REGULAR maintenance. I have never had spokes before this, and I know that spoke tightening will be a regular thing to ensure a straight and tight wheel.
One incident like this surely doesn't mean the end of all our wheels!!!

Jeff

yeah i agree and understand periodic maintenance, but its a worry to know the rims are bending and spokes are snapping ?????

 

[dcstrom]

Hi team,
During our 26,000 km ride from Chiriqui, Panama to both US coasts and back, we experienced distortion to both front & rear rims on our new "silver S10" and so far have lost 5 (five) spokes out of the rear wheel.

Sorry to hear it - when you say "lost" you mean they loosened and you lost the nipple, right? I've had one like that, I'm checking them weekly now.

I'll be doing a trip down your way next year, and my current plan is to stick with stock wheels and spokes but to call into Woody's Wheels and have them check the wheels over - when confirmed OK then apply green loctite.

Maybe between now and then something might happen to make me rethink that plan - maybe I'll have Woody change the spokes, I believe he has suitable substitutes now.

Also, with only 1000 miles on, the original rear tire split, just left of center, causing us to replace it on our dime.

If there was no physical cause for that (road debris, say), Bridgestone/Metzler should have replaced it. I think it's a separate issue to anything that might be going on with the wheel.

In spite of the fact that we have 6 long rides planed for this season, (Columbia by sail boat for a month & return, Mexico at a Yoga retreat for a month, a month around Lake Gatun where "The Canal" passes, another few weeks exploring the "Darien Gap", a couple of weeks up at Lake Atitlan, Guatemala doing some Hang Gliding, and various shorter trips exploring our new country) it looks like we'll be renting something 'till they get us a new set of rims & spokes.

Sounds like a great series of rides! Would be a pity not to be able to take the Super Tenere. Did Yamaha say how long before they could get you new wheels?

Trevor

 

[pluric]

This thread covers it really well.

http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=2311.0

I bent both wheels and sent them off to be straightened. It was my lesson
to watch the spokes a little closer.

 

[markjenn]

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again here: it is NOT normal in typical service to be having to routinely tighten spokes in a spoked motorcycle wheel. I've owned twenty or so bikes with spoked wheels and have 300K+ miles on bikes with spoked wheels. I've very rarely ever had to adjust a spoke. I also know four or five GS owners, several with 50K+ mile bikes and I've never heard of anyone having a loose spoke. There are a few reports of wheel problems in advrider on GS wheels, but given the length of time these bikes have been in service and the huge numbers in the field being put in very severe service, the reports are very limited. Something is unusual here with the S10. Whether it is localized to a few bikes or a general problem remains to be seen.

That being said, to the OP, your "splitting tire" problem on top of your wheel issues would seem to indicate that you may be putting your bike in pretty severe service. Any wheel, spoked or not, has strength limits, and if you ride regularly in rocks or on very broken pavement at speed, you're far more likely to have wheel problems.

So I take the general reports of wheel problems to be something of concern, but any single report like this, while interesting, not necessarily a smoking gun by itself.

- Mark

 

[tc9988]

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again here: it is NOT normal in typical service to be having to routinely tighten spokes in a spoked motorcycle wheel. I've owned twenty or so bikes with spoked wheels and have 300K+ miles on bikes with spoked wheels. I've very rarely ever had to adjust a spoke. I also know four or five GS owners, several with 50K+ mile bikes and I've never heard of anyone having a loose spoke. There are a few reports of wheel problems in advrider on GS wheels, but given the length of time these bikes have been in service and the huge numbers in the field being put in very severe service, the reports are very limited. Something is unusual here with the S10. Whether it is localized to a few bikes or a general problem remains to be seen.

That being said, to the OP, your "splitting tire" problem on top of your wheel issues would seem to indicate that you may be putting your bike in pretty severe service. Any wheel, spoked or not, has strength limits, and if you ride regularly in rocks or on very broken pavement at speed, you're far more likely to have wheel problems.

So I take the general reports of wheel problems to be something of concern, but any single report like this, while interesting, not necessarily a smoking gun by itself.

- Mark

Exactly what I thought when reading the OP post. Question for the OP... did you ever check and or adjust the spokes? Runout and spoke tightness are maintenance items to be checked at 600miles , 4000miles and every 4000 miles thereafter. Therefore the spokes should have been checked 5 times given the current reported mileage

 

[Mike Sisson]

This is the 1st spoke wheeled bike (except the Ural) which I've had an issue with loose spokes. Have a 92 KLR that I have pounded the crap out of. No loose spokes. 2 airhead GS's, 2 GSA's...no loose spokes. ('Course, other "issues" proved much more concerning.... ) Multiple dirt bikes and currently a DRZ all of which were and are on very rough terrain...no loose spokes. My S10 has been on some rough/pot-holed paved roads and smooth dirt roads and have had several loose (but not sloppy) spokes. Only 2800 miles thus far. So far no wheel issues. Possibly a combination of soft wheels and the spoke design? I assume after another few thousand this will settle down, but for now I'm checking them about every 500 miles.

 

[HoebSTer]

Markjenn, Are you saying there was still the need to "inspect" the spokes often on all your bikes as we are finding we have to do with the Tenere? As quickly as this can be done using the tone-sound method, it shouldn't be that much of a pain.

 

[SisuTen]

For you engineering guys that are much smarter than me.......Could this loosening be a result of the nipples being at the hub rather than at the rim? In other words, could it be a case of engine torque being applied more directly to the nipple and loosening them? Seems to me that the hub end of a spoke is more subject to flexing than the rim end.

Maybe a call to Woody in Denver would help sort this out and keep us from needless anxiety and being forced to apply Band-Aids on a weekly/monthly basis.

 

[jajpko]

For you engineering guys that are much smarter than me.......Could this loosening be a result of the nipples being at the hub rather than at the rim? In other words, could it be a case of engine torque being applied more directly to the nipple and loosening them? Seems to me that the hub end of a spoke is more subject to flexing than the rim end.

Maybe a call to Woody in Denver would help sort this out and keep us from needless anxiety and being forced to apply Band-Aids on a weekly/monthly basis.

I have also wondered if the spoke material is softer than other spokes(out sourcing after the quake). This would allow the spoke to stretch more and the nipples to loosen. Just something to think about.
If we had a member that had access to test equipment, it would be nice to know..

 

[SisuTen]

I have also wondered if the spoke material is softer than other spokes(out sourcing after the quake). This would allow the spoke to stretch more and the nipples to loosen. Just something to think about.
If we had a member that had access to test equipment, it would be nice to know..

I suppose that might be a possibility, but spec'ing out spoke requirements is pretty serious stuff and there are many companies that could ship in the required parts after the earthquake. I'd have to guess that's not the case.

Paul

 

[markjenn]

Markjenn, Are you saying there was still the need to "inspect" the spokes often on all your bikes as we are finding we have to do with the Tenere? As quickly as this can be done using the tone-sound method, it shouldn't be that much of a pain.

I'd put this maintenance requirement right along with the "tighten nuts and bolts" one that almost all bikes have. Something you occasionally do, but very seldom find a problem. I'd give the spokes a quick ping test on tire changes and would almost never find a problem.

The issue with regular adjustments is that it is an indication something is fatiguing and bending - either the spoke or the rim. Any wheel that needs frequent and repeated spoke tightenings is going to work its way out of true at best and fail at worst.

- Mark

 

[HoebSTer]

Mark,
I agree, but will also monitor on a regular basis. If I need to in time, I wil just order the Stainless set of spokes from Woody.

 

[toompine]

Agree that spokes need to be "maintained" and will add a few more thoughts. Montesa trials bikes (by Honda) developed a flanged rear tubeless wheel much like the Tenere wheel in 1999. They are hooked through at the rim and the hub and have a center adjuster that pulls from both sides. The late 1990's Betas had the nipples in the hub. In those bikes which see a lot of rim impacts and stress we needed to look after the spokes almost by the hour during the inital break in. The spokes "bed in" in the nipples and rim and hub and consequently loosen up. Once they finished "bedding in" it took very little maintenance.

All that as history, if you pound the wheels on rough roads you will need to look after them a lot more than under normal road work. It is not a defect, it is a design feature. The wire wheels are used off-road because they flex and distribute impact forces whereas mag spoke wheels are forced to absorb the impact at that individual spoke. There are also a lot more wire spokes to absorb and transfer the load that in a typical 6 or 7 spoked mag wheel.

 

[Tremor38]

Re: Re: Soft rims

The late 1990's Betas had the nipples in the hub. In those bikes which see a lot of rim impacts and stress we needed to look after the spokes almost by the hour during the inital break in. The spokes "bed in" in the nipples and rim and hub and consequently loosen up. Once they finished "bedding in" it took very little maintenance.

That's elightning . Thanks.

 

[markjenn]

All that as history, if you pound the wheels on rough roads you will need to look after them a lot more than under normal road work. It is not a defect, it is a design feature.

It takes some seriously convoluted logic to pitch a higher maintenance wheel as a design feature.

- Mark