Soft rims

[Firefight911]

This coming from someone who poo, poos at the "WAY too many problems being reported across the board" on BMW final drives and a host of other BMW problems....as well as saying the S10 OEM tall screen is the best thing since sliced bread. ::005::

Go ahead and keep that chest puffed out. Tell us more about your choke hold on reality. ::017:: Why do so many of your posts carry such pompous tone?

BTW, I believe there is a problem but don't feel it warrants being condescending.

 

[nondairycreamer]

Agree that spokes need to be "maintained" and will add a few more thoughts. Montesa trials bikes (by Honda) developed a flanged rear tubeless wheel much like the Tenere wheel in 1999. They are hooked through at the rim and the hub and have a center adjuster that pulls from both sides. The late 1990's Betas had the nipples in the hub. In those bikes which see a lot of rim impacts and stress we needed to look after the spokes almost by the hour during the inital break in. The spokes "bed in" in the nipples and rim and hub and consequently loosen up. Once they finished "bedding in" it took very little maintenance.

All that as history, if you pound the wheels on rough roads you will need to look after them a lot more than under normal road work. It is not a defect, it is a design feature. The wire wheels are used off-road because they flex and distribute impact forces whereas mag spoke wheels are forced to absorb the impact at that individual spoke. There are also a lot more wire spokes to absorb and transfer the load that in a typical 6 or 7 spoked mag wheel.

I would like to see some data relating to this quote, i.e., at what milage are spokes loose and has there been any checking of spokes, torque adjustments, etc. of wheels that have and wheels that have not been serviced at Yamaha's interval. Is it possible that a number of wheels were not properly set at the factory? And I know that there are some bikes that have had no problems and some that have had problems but numbers of each would help us make sense of this, hopefully someone can get some data or, and let's sacrifice a goat or two for this, feedback from the Yamaha reps. ::025:: I find it interesting that Nick did not report his wheels falling apart as he lapped the Americas. And his had some miles accumulated before the trip. Did he and others go through a breaking in adjustment? The above quote might hold the answer for all. And still, there may be a factory issue. If so, everyone is lucky to b e in the Yamaha camp, the mother ship has a good reputation for fixing problems and the culture there still has a code of honor seldom seen in much of the world.

And last, as much as I like to rattle the cage over at ADVRider, I don't want this site to go down the drain with insults and defensive cuts. Let's not let get carried away with ourselves here, this has been one of the more civil and more cooperative sites, no pissing on each others legs please.

 

[whisperquiet]

I checked my spokes/wheels at 600 miles and had to snug up a few rear spokes.........the fronts were nice and tight. The bike has 8450 miles on it now (virtually all street ridden) and the spokes are still tight and the wheels are true. I have checked them 3-4 times with the old fashioned 10mm box end wrench while listening to the ping of the spoke.

That said, it has been noted that some wheels/spokes have had problems and I believe they do whether the bike has been ridden hard or like mine on the street in a more relaxed manner.

My bike was the first bike to have the leaking fuel pump o'ring (at least I posted first I think) and now Yamaha has a recall for all bikes sold in the USA even though the overwhelming majority have not had the problem and probably will not. The wheel/spoke problems may just affect a few, but they HAVE been noted.

BTW, I DID manage to flat spot/bend a front wheel on my '07 BMW R1200GS Adventure.................about $200.00, a week enroute Woody's, their fine work, and back = a perfectly straight wheel.

 

[GrahamD]

And last, as much as I like to rattle the cage over at ADVRider, I don't want this site to go down the drain with insults and defensive cuts. Let's not let get carried away with ourselves here,...

::026:: ::008::

 

[tc9988]

I don't want this site to go down the drain with insults and defensive cuts. Let's not let get carried away with ourselves here, this has been one of the more civil and more cooperative sites, no pissing on each others legs please.

I agree, however some people need to look to look up the definition of humility

 

[Combo]

no pissing on each others legs please.

Aah heck.......I do that to myself from time to time. Everyone fires off a shot every now and then but I don't think this site will turn into rock throwing like others. S-10 riders are good folks.

What do you guys think of the metric system? ::025::

 

[GrahamD]

I agree, however some people need to look to look up the definition of humility

And because we are so helpful and modest..

CLICK THIS...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=humility

Yes I'm a pompous ass ::025::

 

[stevepsd]

I still believe that most of the 'spoke issues' are due insufficient maintenance, probably from folks who have not had a spoke wheeled motorcycle in a while (or ever). Spokes require much more checking/ and possible maintenance than almost anything else on a motorcycle. It takes a while for spokes to 'seat/bed' themselves and then they usually are set, until you hit something. Hitting the rims can cause the spokes to loosen, and if one spoke loosen, then others around it will start to loosen, which will cause more spokes to loosen, etc.....A rim hit does not have to be enough to damage the rim, but it just changes the tension on the spokes at the site of the impact. That is why you should inspect your spokes, I feel much more often than the owners manual says. I like what my KTM manual says to check you spokes regularly, especially on a new motorcycle.

Here is what the ST manuals say regarding spokes. How many have actually done this? I know I don't check mine before every ride, but I checked mine after the first days ride when I bought the bike, and several times during the first 600 miles or so (I found a couple on the rear a bit loose). I then check every so often, it only takes a couple of minutes. I have not had to adjust any since, even after my Colorado Carnage ride, for which I was susprised based on the hits the wheels took. The wheels are still round and true!

From the ST Owners Manual:
(page 7-5):
Check spokes at 600 miles and every 4000 miles thereafter (unless you hit something - which could cause the spokes to loosen - -my comments)

Periodic maintenance (page 7-21)
Spoke wheels:
To maximize the performance, durability, and safe operation of your vehicle, note the following points regarding the specified wheels.
The wheel rims should be checked for cracks, bends, warpage or other damage, and the spokes for looseness or damage before each
ride. If any damage is found, have a Yamaha dealer replace the wheel. Do not attempt even the smallest repair to the wheel. A deformed
or cracked wheel must be replaced.

From 'Tips' in the service manual (page 3-16) under 'Checking and Tightening the Spokes':

A tight spoke will emit a clear, ringing tone; a loose spoke will sound flat (when tapped by a screwdriver)
&
Be sure to tighten the spoke before and after break-in.


And here are some notes from my KTM 530 EXC Service Manual:

A loose spoke can cause wheel imbalance, which leads to more loose spokes in a short time. If the spokes are too tight, they can break due to local overload. Check the spoke tension regularly, especially on a new motorcycle.

Tap each spoke with a screwdriver.
The sound frequency depends on the length and thickness of the spoke. If there are different sound frequencies in spokes with the same length and
thickness, this indicates different spoke tensions.

 

[EricV]

It's a matter of perspective Steve. I'm impressed that you checked your spokes several times during the first 600 miles. Your previous experience with the KTM shows. After all, you inspect, service and repair a KTM after every ride, and sometimes during the ride. ::008::

Here's another take. Just how many times do you think I should stop and check my spokes during a ride? My first 760 miles covered two rides, the ride home from the dealer, (~40 miles), and the second ride, which was just a day ride.

I can appreciate your point of view, and yes, I should have checked my spokes more often than I did, but seriously, you've got to be kidding. I'm not stopping several times during a day ride to check my spokes, and I shouldn't need to.

 

[tc9988]

And because we are so helpful and modest..

CLICK THIS...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=humility

Yes I'm a pompous ass ::025::

hey that's cool but everyone already knows you are a pompous ass ;D

 

[stevepsd]

It's a matter of perspective Steve. I'm impressed that you checked your spokes several times during the first 600 miles. Your previous experience with the KTM shows. After all, you inspect, service and repair a KTM after every ride, and sometimes during the ride. ::008::

Here's another take. Just how many times do you think I should stop and check my spokes during a ride? My first 760 miles covered two rides, the ride home from the dealer, (~40 miles), and the second ride, which was just a day ride.

I can appreciate your point of view, and yes, I should have checked my spokes more often than I did, but seriously, you've got to be kidding. I'm not stopping several times during a day ride to check my spokes, and I shouldn't need to.

Funny stuff.

Never said I checked during a ride, nor do I check daily, or weekly or even bi-minutely. I did check them several times during the first 1,000 miles (3 times I believe - which was over the course of about a week or so) which was enough time to let them bed in. After that I check them at each oil change. And this is important: Or when I suspect that I may have damaged the rim - which so far has been after my Carnage ride - and I was expecting flat spotted rims. Don't know how I avoided rim damage on that ride.

The issue is that when spokes get loose, it causes other spokes to loosen (due to reduced spoke tension in that area), which causes more spokes to loosen, etc....Loose spokes will also allow the rim to be more easily damaged as well. It just snow-balls.

My KTM was absolutely horrible when I bought it new. I tightened up a number before my first real ride. It seems that almost a quarter of the spokes where loose after the first days ride. Now they are fine.

It is absolutely true that a brand new bike can have spokes that are loose. They should be checked during the delivery check (is it on the pre-delivery checklist?). But it is ultimately the owners responsibility to do the required maintenance (or pay to have it done) - just like checking your oil level, especially during the break-in period, so you get a feel for how your individual vehicle behaves. If you don't, you might be lucky or you might not.

 

[EricV]

Funny stuff.

Never said I checked during a ride, nor do I check daily, or weekly or even bi-minutely.

;D That was my point. What for you is several rides, is less than one ride for me. You propose multiple checks, but it's based on your perspective of going for multiple short rides, not my longer ones.

You made some great points about owner responsibility. Still, this is a Yamaha. It doesn't lose/burn/leak oil during it's break in, at least in any significant amount. And wire spokes serve no purpose in today's world. Just my opinion. If you can't fix it, don't break it.

 

[Combo]

And wire spokes serve no purpose in today's world. Just my opinion. If you can't fix it, don't break it.

For off road spokes are stronger and less un-sprung weight so suspensions will work better. Mags will bend and break before spoke wheels.

I maybe wetting my own leg (again) on this but I don't think so.

 

[EricV]

For off road spokes are stronger and less un-sprung weight so suspensions will work better. Mags will bend and break before spoke wheels.

I maybe wetting my oun leg (again) on this but I don't think so.

Maybe we both are. I call BS though. Look at our wheels, no way they are lighter than an HPLV cast aluminum wheel. Bend and break before a wire spoke wheel? You did read this post, right? It exists because people are tweaking the wire spoked wheel in conditions where it is unlikely they would have an issue with a cast aluminum wheel.

If you manage your air pressure and don't abuse the bike, you're going to have a really, really hard time damaging a cast wheel. Have I seen it happen? Sure, from things like running over a 4x4 in the road or a massive pothole that would damage any wheel.

Have we seen wheels out of true and bent here from far less impacts? Apparently so.

 

[Combo]

OK BS Washing legs now, but I will be back.

 

[whisperquiet]

If given a choice at purchase, I would have chosen alloy rims as I believe that the spoke wheels on the S10 are a sales gimmick to compete with the BMW R1200GS Adventure tubeless spoked wheel set. I owned a 2007 BMW R1200 GS Adventure (purchased used) and if given a choice, I would have run the alloy wheels on the standard GS. The stock spoked wheels on the BMW had/have a huge amount of acceptable run out even when new.........alloy wheels would not.
For the way/where I ride, I don't want to have to screw with checking the tension of the spokes ............. I will since I have no choice, but would rather not.

I've changed one rear tire on the S10 and the wheel seems rather heavy to me...........so much for lighter un-sprung weight.

 

[Firefight911]

Well, I'll add my data;

4000 miles and just got it back from its service today. (Yes, I can do all of my own service and I enjoy doing it immensely. I maximized my time by paying for it this go around!)

Here are my findings to date;

0 miles - Wheels were checked for run out and spokes were checked for torque. The tech touched, literally, every single spoke. All was as it should have been.

600 miles - Wheels were checked for run out and spokes were checked for torque. The tech touched, literally, every single spoke. All was as it should have been.

4000 miles - Wheels were checked for run out and spokes were checked for torque. The tech touched, literally, every single spoke. There were "a couple that were ever so slightly out of spec" They checked run out and adjusted as needed.

My riding has entailed a split of 70 % road and 30 % off road. Most of the off road has been jeep trail or fire road but there has been a fair share of more technical stuff, including baby heads, thrown in for good measure.

I ride my bike like a big, dual sport, Adventure bike......as it was designed. I am not, nor will I ever be, James Stewart, Chad reed, Hurricane Hannah, et al. and, as a result, do not ride like that plus if I were them I would know to not ride like this on this bike.

For me, I will check my spokes after every off road foray, when I check tire pressures, when I hit something I was too stupid or inattentive to avoid, and at the recommended intervals.

Oh, I'll also check them at every tire change just as should be done by anyone who cares about their well being or making it home to their family at the end of a ride. This, to me, is turning in to another oil thread. It has valuable info but I do think it is becoming polarizing.

 

[markjenn]

I've seen the question of which wheel type if lighter argued both ways. Probably depends on the implementation. If anyone has any data, I'd like to see it, but I don't think one is decidedly lighter than the other.

As has been discussed in this thread, it's really a chain-drive vs. shaft-drive sort of tradeoff. Spoked may require some maintenance and is harder to keep a completely true wheel, but it will get you home at times where a cast wheel will crack and not hold air. But up to the point where they crack or bend, a cast wheel can be darn strong - I beat my Strom over some very rocky roads for days on end and never had a problem.

For a bike that is going to see mostly street or mild off-road, cast is probably a better tradeoff. That's why BMW puts cast wheels on the GS (not GSA) as standard. But most adventure bikers these days want a more rugged and off-road looking bike, so most GS's ship with spoked and spoked is standard on the GSA. Yamaha would lose sales with cast and they only wanted to ship a single model, so they went with spoked.

- Mark

 

[snakebitten]

Don't know all the science behind it, but dirt bikes have spoked wheels. I do know that much.

Second, I know this........those wheels on that Yamaha Beast on the back porch are gorgeous. And they even look better with Heidenaus mounted. (The wallpaper on the desktop at work is Wasp's S10 with TKC's.....even nicer looking)

8000+ miles. Bike is nice and dirty all the time even though the daily commute is all tarmac. Spokes are all good.

I check em.

 

[Combo]

Don't know all the science behind it, but dirt bikes have spoked wheels. I do know that much.

Second, I know this........those wheels on that Yamaha Beast on the back porch are gorgeous. And they even look better with Heidenaus mounted. (The wallpaper on the desktop at work is Wasp's S10 with TKC's.....even nicer looking)

8000+ miles. Bike is nice and dirty all the time even though the daily commute is all tarmac. Spokes are all good.

I check em.

I'm back, legs washed!

snakebitten, your the man! ::008::