Reality or myth?

[tomatocity]

Damn, I thought they were speaking of Jewish American Princess motorcycles. Just joking! I don't find Blue as an offensive statement. Yamaha Blue, Yamaha Super Tenere Blue. Led a ride on Sunday with two Blue Tenere's and four GS's. We all started at the same time and finished at the same time. Well the GS's had to stop by a Service Department and pay them $100 for the 200 mile ride

 

[markjenn]

I don't think the first point (on parts availability) is completely a myth. You can get a lot of parts for very old BMWs (pre 1980) that the Japanese makes have discontinued a long time ago. There are legends of people restoring 1950-era BMWs and being able to order extremely rare and obscure parts. But this may be more due to BMW continuing the same designs for longer periods than benevolence by the mfg.

On parts availability, the Japanese do vary quite a bit. Honda and Yamaha are better than Suzuki and Kawasaki. Kawasaki is notorious for discontinuing parts support for models at very young age.

The other two points are mostly BS, although any motorcycle will go well beyond 100K with good servicing. There are lots of good reasons to buy a BMW, but saving money isn't one of them.

- Mark

 

[GrahamD]

I would put the new GS head to head with a SuperTenere with some real world riding for a few years and let's see which one stays on the road the longest.

But all the BMW's would have been junked for the next 300 ride mode electronic wonder with "future sense" suspension and 13:1 compression, oh and 6 mode steering damper ::024::

Makes you wonder about the relevance of anything over 50,000Km.

 

[KCampbell]

His opinions have no basis in fact.

I've had no problems getting parts for my 1982 CBX 1000, a bike that was short-lived because the market shifted but is still well supported. Trawl through Craigslist and take a look at the early '70s Japanese bikes for sale - notice how many have been restored or upgraded? Possible because they were worth the effort and parts are available.

Many Japanese manufacturers have been churning out essentially the same bike for decades; KLR 650, DR650 and of course the Honda Cub has been made since 1958 with over 60 million produced! SO much for the idea that there's no commitment to a model.

What's the most miles you have ever racked up on a motorcycle yourself? If it's less than 100,000 miles then who cares whether a bike is good for 200,000 or 500,000 miles? What good did it do you to own a BMW that was theoretically good for all those miles when you couldn't stomach the cost of traveling just 8,000 miles per year?

He may well be a very competent mechanic, but his views don't reflect reality. I hope you're able to make a decision that suits you and with which you're happy, even if it does mean you never get to know your new mechanic very well!

Kevin

 

[Firefight911]

Let's see.........

I've owned eight BMWs. The last two were both lemon law buybacks (both 2009 model years) within less than one year from each other. At one point I had title to three BMWs at once. The total amount of time over a two year period that all three were in my possession without one, at least, being in the BMW service bay totaled less than two months. This is not a joke or embellishment. I would either ride, tow, or haul a bike in to the shop and drop it off while picking up another.

Let's see.........

I've owned more than eight Japanese motorcycles. I professionally roadraced them as well. Race bikes included, the total amount of shop time for every one of them has been less than one month combined over my ownership life of every single one..

Gee, I wonder who has a reliability issue?

I have checked and I can still walk in and have parts for 1990s Suzuki and Yamaha motorcycles all delivered within about a week from a dealer. What issues are we talking about in accessing parts? I've also checked on parts for some 1960s Hondas that I had considered buying to refurbish. Yup, you guessed it, all parts were easily and readily available.

I rode over 8300 miles in 20 days through 28 states on my Yamaha Super Tenere and burned out a light bulb. Not the bike's fault. That same trip started with a 44 hour and 58 minute ride from Ocean Beach, San Diego, California to Jackson ville Beach, Jacksonville, Florida covering over 2400 miles. I rode through five states and did around 3000 miles on a BMW and if it wasn't for my wife driving our Dodge 2500 pick up truck (she was pregnant so could not ride her own at the time) as sweep I would have had to call a tow truck on more than one occasion. All the bike's fault.

I'd rather own a Royal Enfield.

 

[sportsguy]

Largely, today, your mechanics arguments are myth.

Buy a Yamaha and be assured its everything we boast about ourselves. One of the best votes of confidence is that so many of us are either former Yamaha owners, or owned other brands and have landed here. There is a reason for that.

 

[scott123007]

I don't think the first point (on parts availability) is completely a myth. You can get a lot of parts for very old BMWs (pre 1980) that the Japanese makes have discontinued a long time ago. There are legends of people restoring 1950-era BMWs and being able to order extremely rare and obscure parts. But this may be more due to BMW continuing the same designs for longer periods than benevolence by the mfg.

On parts availability, the Japanese do vary quite a bit. Honda and Yamaha are better than Suzuki and Kawasaki. Kawasaki is notorious for discontinuing parts support for models at very young age.

The other two points are mostly BS, although any motorcycle will go well beyond 100K with good servicing. There are lots of good reasons to buy a BMW, but saving money isn't one of them.

- Mark

Mark, I know it's hard for some on this board to digest, but thanks for virtually always being the voice of reason with your posts.

 

[snakebitten]

By now, I suspect the OP realizes his post touched on a nerve. Lol

But I gotta defend the response.
This specific forum exists and thrives because of an amazing motorcycle. And it just so happens to be a Japanese motorcycle.

On top of that, most folks that have discovered how amazing it is, have also found themselves on an island all alone with their opinion. For the most part, the world press has declared us delusional. And that fuels almost EVERYONE who drives the other ADV bikes with their "parroting" the same drivel.

After a while, you get a bit defensive. Why? Because this bike really truly is far superior to what it is on paper.

So, back to the opening post........
It might have been unexpected, but the declaration of inferiority of our beloved machine by one who chooses to prop up the one brand most blamed for the bias, well,........it draws a little ire.

Nothing personal. And don't hold it against Yamaha if we piled on. And certainly don't deny yourself the great bike that drew you here in the first place.

 

[autoteach]

Well, sorry if I offended anyone. Didn't think I was using a racist term. I'm of Mexican decent and don't consider Mex to be offensive. I'll make it a point to refer to the S10 as a Japanese bike.

And no, the $3000 is for maintanance and mechanical problems, not including gas.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

If you aren't offended by the terms that you decide to call other people, that doesn't prove negatively or positively that it is or isn't racist. And, I understood that you weren't including fuel... I was making fun of your mechanic and his expectations for your GS. 80k miles should cost you about 30,000 in maintenance. At that point you can buy 1.5 tenere's for the retail price, followed by another 2 before you hit 80K miles. If that is the measure of dependable, then I have too high of standards.

 

[arjayes]

I don't think the first point (on parts availability) is completely a myth. You can get a lot of parts for very old BMWs (pre 1980) that the Japanese makes have discontinued a long time ago. There are legends of people restoring 1950-era BMWs and being able to order extremely rare and obscure parts. But this may be more due to BMW continuing the same designs for longer periods than benevolence by the mfg.

On parts availability, the Japanese do vary quite a bit. Honda and Yamaha are better than Suzuki and Kawasaki. Kawasaki is notorious for discontinuing parts support for models at very young age.

The other two points are mostly BS, although any motorcycle will go well beyond 100K with good servicing. There are lots of good reasons to buy a BMW, but saving money isn't one of them.

- Mark

Thanks for adding a little balance to this thread, markjenn. You guys kill me with the monolithic attitude sometimes. It's ok to admit that the Tenere is not the greatest motorcycle ever built!

I can't speak to BMW bikes because I've never owned one. But I've owned a TON of Japanese cars and for the most part they have been reliable, "utilitarian", and soulless. About six months ago I bought my first BMW - a 2006 330CI with the ZHP performance package. By far the most fun car to drive I've ever owned. Will it cost more to maintain than the Infiniti G35 I used to own? No doubt. Does it have its quirks? Sure. When I bought the G35 in 2005 I was also considering a 3-series, but went with the G35 based on almost solely on price. If I had test driven the Bimmer there's no doubt I would have coughed up the extra $12k to own it. Reliability and value are not the whole story. The Germans bring a lot of intangibles to the table. I test drove the new GS and thought it was awesome, both looks and performance. Like the G35, I bought the Tenere based almost solely on price. Only time will tell if I regret it like the G35.

I know - I'm new here and shouldn't spew such sacrilege. Feel free to flame me!

 

[sportsguy]

On top of that, most folks that have discovered how amazing it is, have also found themselves on an island all alone with their opinion. For the most part, the world press has declared us delusional. And that fuels almost EVERYONE who drives the other ADV bikes with their "parroting" the same drivel.

Yes, because driving a carefully prepped and over-fussed press bike handled by factory reps for half a day gives one the depth needed to fully represent a product. Interesting its the consumers that note flaws online, and no magazine ever posts follow-up articles detailing what far too many owners are experiencing...with the bikes the magazines enthused about so much. Because, let's face it, if they did such a story, invites to future model releases would evaporate. But if you're the manufacturer, would you invite someone back who brought forth dirt on you?

This is why its so important for each consumer to do their own research and seek no short cuts.

 

[nondairycreamer]

Well, I called my BMW mechanic today to let him know that I would be going from a GS to a S10. In the last year, I had spent about $3000 USD on this bike (maintenance is included in this figure). Given that I put 8K miles on it, that number adds up to almost .50 cents per mile. Not to mention the fact that the speedometer was sticking and my mechanic had given me an estimate of about $1500 USD as the entire dashboard would have to be replaced.

Anyway, he is a great guy with lots of experience. He only works on BMW's and has a much better reputation than the dealers in the area. People ride from as far as 300 miles to avoid going to the BMW dealer.

Obviously, he didn't want to lose a customer and he started telling me why I shouldn't go to a jap bike. Here are the main points he made:

1. Jap bikes tend to be discontinued much more regularly than BMW's. When they are discontinued, parts become scarce. He told me a story about an 8 year old Honda he owned and about how difficult is was to get parts for it.
2. He said jap bikes were not built for the really long haul. He does have a 1995 R1100GS with 500K miles that has never been rebuilt. He mentioned that Japanese bikes are built for about 100K miles, then it's all down hill from there.
3. Bottom line, he said if I plan to keep the bike for some years, I should not go with a jap bike.

Does he make valid points? Or is he just hating losing a good paying customer?

1. Japanese bikes evolve faster and longer than BMW. Consider how long BMW kept the dry clutch which is not robust. As for parts, I worked at a metric dealer in Baltimore where we sold off crates of thousands of parts for pennies on the dollar because no one needed them. We also did a big business in getting 15-20 year old bikes back into running condition. We never had trouble getting parts from Honda or the other big 3.
2. Japanese bikes are built for running longer than BMW. They start with far superior quality control, combined with better engineering. BMW kept the plunger frame for years after ever other manufacturer went to swing arm. All the Japanese had better carbs for years and their fuel injection was better than BMW's first injection. Even a BMW service manager told me once that a properly tuned airhead BMW with the Bing carbs (that always leaked because the gaskets wee crap), would have a cleaner exhaust than the fuel injected BMWs in the 80's and into the early '90's. As for 500k miles, I've seen this on Japanese bikes too. But the owners don't make such a big deal about it because it is not such a big deal but it is less expensive and with less service work than your mechanic had to do for his GS. Spend a day over at ADVRider and compare the GSpot subforum with three or four threads for the Super Tenere. GSpot is an endless parade of problems, mysteries and circle jerks. The ST threads are farkles, ride reports and lots of laughs. The evidence is glaring and staggering.
3.Bottom line is your BMW tech is just as full of shit as all the other apologists. I've spent years in BMW and metric shops and there is no comparison. For the same number of bikes sold at a BMW dealer compared to a metric dealer the number of mechanics will be double in the BMW shop. Look into a BMW shop and see the number of brand new bikes totally disassembled. Then look into a Honda or Yamaha shop and you will see only badly abused or wrecked sport bikes making up the bulk of the work. And this is based on my own observations where I've worked.

I've owned several BMWs and several Honda, Yamaha and Kawasaki bikes and non of the BMWs have ever measured up. I've spent more time on the side of the road with a failed BMW and spent more money trying to get my BMWs to perform as well as my metric bikes than I care to remember. I too fell for the bullshit. And looking back I now realize that I would have been much happier on any Japanese brand of the same year. The Japanese have not built the world wide businesses they have by selling inferior products. Your mechanic would have us believe that all the world but his customers are fools?

All of the above I can repeat if we want to discuss the German vs Japanese autos. The former will nickel and dime you to death, the later will go on and on. Again, based on my own observations in the business.

You need to step outside the matrix. A better world awaits.

 

[snakebitten]

It's ok to admit that the Tenere is not the greatest motorcycle ever built!

I know you might think I jest. But I actually DO think it is the best motorcycle ever built, to date.

Really, seriously. It's just a better. If I thought there was a better one, I'd just go buy it.

Am I supposed to be shy or reluctant to say so? I'm totally ok if I stood alone on the claim. (I don't think I do)

 

[GrahamD]

By now, I suspect the OP realizes his post touched on a nerve. Lol

There is the one thing that has always annoyed me for many years. Treating the "Big Four" like they are "all the same".

Reminds me of stories about "beer labels on the inside of doors". That story changed from Datsun to Toyota depending on which Mr Nervous Salesman was trying to sell against what brand.

In fact out of the "non Japanese" brands I would consider BMW closest in an Engineering sense as far as their willingness to give all kinds of configurations a go and reasonably successfully while they are running.

The big problem with BMW for the last many years has been Q/A and it's not getting better.

That is one thing I think is a cultural common amongst the Japanese Brands. They all seemed to take W. Edwards Deming seriously and had the humility to listen and take it on board.

Lets face it, bikes and cars these days are made from parts from all over the place and are often manufactured wherever it is cost effective for a particular model. Some just seem to manage that process better than others and invest effort where it is important in the supply chain.

 

[3xranger]

I appreciate the responses. I know that many have arrived here via the same route I'm following--mainly that the brand that dominates the marketplace just didn't deliver on the image they have created for themselves. I stated elsewhere that I feel like I did when I traded my Land Rover for a Toyota 4Runner back in 04. That 4Runner now has 180K miles and it has been one of my favorite cars ever. I think my new 2013 gray Tenere will give me similar results.

Happy New Year!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[cakeboy]

3XRANGER, i dont think you need to be told that the bmw mechanic is fear full of losing a good customer, look how much money you have payed out ..you know its time to change or you wouldnt be doing it ..i like a lot more have had bmw,s in the past and found them very expensive to run, not to mention the huge problems i had with them ..i changed to "jap" bikes and have "never" had a single thing go wrong with one ..i would never go back to bmw ....get the S10 then come back in a years time and tell us it wasnt a good move ..

 

[Dirt_Dad]

Reliability and value are not the whole story. The Germans bring a lot of intangibles to the table. I test drove the new GS and thought it was awesome, both looks and performance. Like the G35, I bought the Tenere based almost solely on price. Only time will tell if I regret it like the G35.

I know - I'm new here and shouldn't spew such sacrilege. Feel free to flame me!

There is no disputing the Germans do bring a lot of intangibles. I like the looks of their bikes, and I'm happy they are out there making Adventure bikes, and selling a ton of them. I want that to continue. The more manufactures making Adventure bikes the better it is for all of us who love Adventure bikes. Choice is a good thing and should be applauded.

That said, after learning about all the reliability issues that have been reported by the OP and so many others across the forums, there is no way I would buy one until they improved their reliability. There is no higher consideration for me above reliability. I've experienced multiple breakdowns with non-Japanese vehicle when far from home. My wife's old Spyder would leave me searching the internet at the hotel trying to figure out how to get something working, or have us going 100 mile out of the way to reach an all French speaking shop in Quebec to try to something fixed, or pulling battery cables off in the middle of a hurricane to keep it from killing itself in the rain. Unreliable interrupts trips, causes unnecessary stress, and cost unplanned money to repair, tow, any maybe find another way home. Unreliable is unacceptable. I don't care how exciting a vehicle may be. If I'm waiting for it to break, it ruins the experience.

It's a wonderful plus that the Tenere is such a blast to ride, and it is as reliable as a vehicle could be.

As far as not grouping the 4 Japanese manufactures together...I'm certainly guilty of doing that. I've owned more Yamahas than any other brand, but I've had fantastic reliability and fun with all my bikes from the other three. I would not hesitate to buy a vehicle from any of them.

 

[Checkswrecks]

I appreciate the responses.


...


I think my new 2013 gray Tenere will give me similar results.

Happy New Year!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

And that is the point. You decided for yourself and hopefully will enjoy your decision.
Congrats on the nice bike!
::008::

 

[viewdvb]

From the UK
There are rarely issues here with parts for Japanese bikes except perhaps for the ancient (sorry - classic) models. That said, whenever I have had trouble sourcing a part, I have contacted my Californian dealer friend and he has found them via the USA importers without much trouble. That means that you yanks have the best of a good deal in parts availabilty and they are cheaper there too. Your parts cost approximately 1US $ to our 1 UK £ - that's currently a ratio of 1.6:1 in your favour. To be fair, BMW parts aren't hard to get here either but cost more than their "Jap" equivalent and we're in the EU. The problem here with BMW is that you have to accept that ONLY dealers are allowed to work on your bike at premium rates. Touch it yourself and all warranties and support evaporate and your bike is blacklisted on the "approved" secondhand dealer lists. A recent example I encountered was a guy who fitted higher bars and the longer braided hoses needed. He couldn't bleed them properly, which apparently needed a BMW computer (just to bleed brakes????), so he took it to a BMW dealer. The dealer flat refused to bleed them as the parts were not approved BMW accessories. The only way back on the road was to replace the originals. If it had been mine, the dealer would still be prying it out of his ar**.
Reliability? There is/was a Motorcycle News UK comparison road test on YouTube in which they ran several touring bikes from Lands End to John O'Groats (as far as you can go end to end). All except the BMW that wouldn't start at Land's End and had to be recovered by BMW before the test began. To supply a test bike that fails at the first hurdle says it all. I have run group tours throughout Europe for decades travelling with a very wide spread of makes and models. The make most needing recovery and repair? BMW by a margin of 7:1. Mostly electrical failures though we have had clutch failure on a low miles 1300LT, and a rear drive failure on a GS. Perhaps they have a higher percentage representation in the touring groups; of say 30 bikes, 3-5 might be BMW. That doesn't offset their 7:1 breakdown record.
My life changed, road and racing, when the first CB750s arrived in 1969 and I've never looked back. I once bought a new R90S and it was a nice enough bike though the seat was hard as a board. When I took it to the dealer for a service (not a lot of miles but out of warranty), he announced that the engine shaft seal (behind the clutch) was leaking. "See, you haven't fitted the updated part to fix that problem" he accused, forgetting it was his job to advise me of updates and fixes. "What was the fix?", I asked. "A longer dipstick to reduce oil level"!!!!! So much for teutonic engineering! I vowed that was the last BMW I would own and it was. I have road tested the 1200 GS in a moment of weakness and I thought it was gutless, rattly beast with a ghastly gearbox and that was the latest improved version.
I'm sure that riding a free road test bike for a day or a month can be an enjoyable experience and accounts for the press plaudits but that is not the same as long term OWNERSHIP which is where Japanese bikes score every time in my experience.

 

[snakebitten]

According to most, we are delusional. And if you see it differently than us, you are reasonable and balanced.

It's a great planet. By far the most entertaining.