New ECU Flash Option: DIY FLASHING

[Dallara]

Instead, I feel confident that the exact opposite is happening. The engine is getting more throttle than it can handle. If intake velocities drop off, WOT isn't necessarily the most powerful throttle position for a given rpm/load.

Yep. Whacking the throttle wide-open at low revs and high-load will cause intake air flow velocity to drop to a near standstill, literally "stalling" air flow to the cylinder... Just like it whacking the throttle slide wide open on an old slide valve carb bike would. Bernoulli's principle personified...

http://mitchellscience.com/bernoulli_principle_animation (scroll down)

And people wonder why the CV carb got invented. ::025::

Dallara



~

 

[~TABASCO~]

Yep. Whacking the throttle wide-open at low revs and high-load will cause intake air flow velocity to drop to a near standstill, literally "stalling" air flow to the cylinder... Just like it whacking the throttle slide wide open on an old slide valve carb bike would. Bernoulli's principle personified...

http://mitchellscience.com/bernoulli_principle_animation (scroll down)

And people wonder why the CV carb got invented. ::025::

Dallara



~

That’s not totally true with the electronic controlled throttle bodies... The ECM is watching all this and is in full control, not the rider... Its defiantly not like any slide carb. The ECM takes in account of RPM, load, timing, Etc to optimize the load under any gear, throttle or demand on the engine.

 

[avc8130]

Yep. Whacking the throttle wide-open at low revs and high-load will cause intake air flow velocity to drop to a near standstill, literally "stalling" air flow to the cylinder... Just like it whacking the throttle slide wide open on an old slide valve carb bike would. Bernoulli's principle personified...

http://mitchellscience.com/bernoulli_principle_animation (scroll down)

And people wonder why the CV carb got invented. ::025::

Dallara



~

Dallara,

So funny you brought it up that way. I learned this lesson from swapping 41mm flat slide carbs onto my SV650 to replace the stock CVs. Those carbs were an absolute riot...provided your wrist could modulate the intake velocity properly. Once I learned how to ride that bike it was the sickest SV650 in the land...of course that didn't make it 1/2 an R6. LOL

ac

 

[~TABASCO~]

AC,

This is all speculative until its on a dyno to check AFR, TQ, HP, and understanding what is going on many different levels. When are you throwing your bike on the dyno? With out extensive dyno tuning / testing this is guess work at best. You reference in one of your post that you can't hurt or damage your motor with this software, where do you get your info? Someone that doesn't know what there doing can certainly damage there motor. It's not to say that this software is not good. But as we know, and you have said this a powerful "tool". Few people understand the complex sophistication of the many functions that can be controlled and how to use this software to gain more or to fix there 'issues'.

 

[avc8130]

That’s not totally true with the electronic controlled throttle bodies... The ECM is watching all this and is in full control, not the rider... Its defiantly not like any slide carb. The ECM takes in account of RPM, load, timing, Etc to optimize the load under any gear, throttle or demand on the engine.

Nope. Wrong.

Unless TCS is getting in the way, you get whatever throttle position is in the map for your wrist position/rpm on the x/y axis.

It is VERY easy to make a throttle map that will whack the throttle open more than the engine can handle at a given rpm/gear combo.

ac

 

[avc8130]

AC,
This is all speculative until its on a dyno to chech AFR, TQ, HP, and understanding what is going on on many different levels. When are you throwing your bike on the dyno? With out extensive dyno tuning / testing this is guess work at best. You reference in one of your post that you can't hurt or damage your motor with this software, where do you get your info? Someone that doesn't know what there doing can certainly damage there motor. It's not to say that this software is not good. But as we know, and you have said this a powerful "tool". Few people understand the complex sofistication of the many functions that can be controlled and how to use this software to gain more or to fix there 'issues'.

No where did I state it was IMPOSSIBLE to damage your motor in fact, I stated just the OPPOSITE in my 1st post on page 2 of this thread. Heck, guys could damage their motors using the PCVs you sell.

Using an Auto Tune is not a real way to tune. Sure, you can make your fuel system accomplish any desired AFR you would like...but is that REALLY max power? No dyno, not so sure.

Someone that doesn't know what they are doing shouldn't be meddling with areas they are unaware of. If you leave the rev limiter, timing and fueling stock you will NEVER damage your motor no matter how much you mess with throttle/decel maps.

My bike may or may not get on a dyno. For my purposes it isn't 100% necessary. I'm not searching out every last hp. I'm looking for rideability.

I can see from dynos and fuel maps posted by others that the fueling is "good enough" in stock form for my purposes at WOT and riding areas. Sure, steady state/low rpm fueling isn't great but I have to go out of my way to find that in my normal riding. Each time I flash the ECU I play around with different ways to play with that range using what has worked for others (adding fuel). Adding fuel isn't going to blow a motor. I can see how the ECU makes the fuel decision for the low RPM area. I've had good results with changing that decision matrix. If there was someone else to share the info with that could benefit from it, I would.

ac

 

[~TABASCO~]

Nope. Wrong.

Unless TCS is getting in the way, you get whatever throttle position is in the map for your wrist position/rpm on the x/y axis.

It is VERY easy to make a throttle map that will whack the throttle open more than the engine can handle at a given rpm/gear combo.

ac

Sure, you can change that with Chris's software.. That’s where someone using that software could, can get into unforeseen issues. For 99.9% of us that’s not the case. I’m not going to sit here on the forum and debate about every point of this bike. We have worked with Flash Tune for many months and have worked with Chris personally on this software for months, you know this already. We had a customer at Chris's office working on the Tenere. We have a ton of personal info about this software and I have been in the loop on this software and project for months. You have posted "facts" in this post that are dubious at best... We have also tested the flash tune up against the ECU-U software and have that info. I would suggest you test these systems yourself before you have such a firm opinion on what works best....

 

[avc8130]

FWIW I spoke to Chris at Flash Tune about a "full system map". He said he had a Tenere on the dyno with a full Arrow exhaust system. He runs his dyno in much the same way that Dynojet does. He uses a Bazzaz fuel manager and O2 sensor setup to develop fuel maps. He claims the Bazzaz was pulling fuel just like the posted PCV maps to obtain "ideal" AFR on the dyno.

I mentioned the stumbling at 2500 rpm, but he said it was tough to replicate on the dyno. I believe him since those target rpms are tough to maintain long enough on a non-eddy current dyno to get proper data for partial throttle.

He also said he didn't notice it on his test rides. I believe him since I didn't know there was surging either until I read about it on this forum and went out of my way to replicate it. The fact of life for me is that 2500 rpm in 1st gear is just not a speed I travel often at all.

As I have said earlier, my bike MIGHT wind up on a dyno sometime this off season. I still haven't seen an ECU-U gen 2 dyno run...but I'm sure Jaxon wouldn't hesitate to sell me that flash...don't mock something just because YOU don't sell it.

ac

 

[avc8130]

Sure, you can change that with Chris's software.. That’s where someone using that software could, can get into unforeseen issues. For 99.9% of us that’s not the case. I’m not going to sit here on the forum and debate about every point of this bike. We have worked with Flash Tune for many months and have worked with Chris personally on this software for months, you know this already. We had a customer at Chris's office working on the Tenere. We have a ton of personal info about this software and I have been in the loop on this software and project for months. You have posted "facts" in this post that are dubious at best... We have also tested the flash tune up against the ECU-U software and have that info. I would suggest you test these systems yourself before you have such a firm opinion on what works best....

Yeah, I heard all about that.

Sure...I bet the ECU-U is excellent. I've never said it wasn't.

I'm also 100% confident that someone could attain the same result...and possibly better for THEM with the unrestricted ability to tune parameters.

Why don't you release this secret information you have? It can't offend me. I have nothing to lose...I don't make money selling ECU flashes on the forum. I'm just here as a fellow enthusiast like MOST of the guys on this forum.

ac

 

[Dallara]

That’s not totally true with the electronic controlled throttle bodies... The ECM is watching all this and is in full control, not the rider... Its defiantly not like any slide carb. The ECM takes in account of RPM, load, timing, Etc to optimize the load under any gear, throttle or demand on the engine.

Guess you didn't read the part where AVC said the throttle opening ramping programmed into the ECU was pretty much linear from the look-up tables...

AVC???

Dallara



~

 

[Dallara]

AC,

This is all speculative until its on a dyno to check AFR, TQ, HP, and understanding what is going on many different levels. When are you throwing your bike on the dyno? With out extensive dyno tuning / testing this is guess work at best. You reference in one of your post that you can't hurt or damage your motor with this software, where do you get your info? Someone that doesn't know what there doing can certainly damage there motor. It's not to say that this software is not good. But as we know, and you have said this a powerful "tool". Few people understand the complex sophistication of the many functions that can be controlled and how to use this software to gain more or to fix there 'issues'.

Have you run your bike on the dyno yet, Jaxon? To optimize all the PC-V maps, etc. you have been using and swapping with folks?

Dallara



~

 

[avc8130]

Guess you didn't read the part where AVC said the throttle opening ramping programmed into the ECU was pretty much linear...

AVC???

Dallara



~

Give me a bit, I'll post the stock 6th gear maps. I have NO CLUE what the ECU-U maps look like.

ac

 

[~TABASCO~]

No where did I state it was IMPOSSIBLE to damage your motor. Heck, guys could damage their motors using the PCVs you sell.
I never said impossible...

Using an Auto Tune is not a real way to tune. Sure, you can make your fuel system accomplish any desired AFR you would like...but is that REALLY max power? No dyno, not so sure.
No joke, its not the best and its not even great... But it does allow riders to see what the heck is going on aside from living on a dyno. It also does make small changes that does help situations.

Someone that doesn't know what they are doing shouldn't be meddling with areas they are unaware of. If you leave the rev limiter, timing and fueling stock you will NEVER damage your motor no matter how much you mess with throttle/decel maps.
That does sound about right, but the end user wont get what you would get with a GEN II with out changing the things you just mentioned not to touch.

My bike may or may not get on a dyno. For my purposes it isn't 100% necessary. I'm not searching out every last hp. I'm looking for readability.
Even if you find something you really like, what the heck is really going on and where and what is it doing? Not to be a dick - do you care?



I can see from dynos and fuel maps posted by others that the fueling is "good enough" in stock form for my purposes at WOT and riding areas. Sure, steady state/low rpm fueling isn't great but I have to go out of my way to find that in my normal riding. Each time I flash the ECU I play around with different ways to play with that range using what has worked for others (adding fuel). Adding fuel isn't going to blow a motor. I can see how the ECU makes the fuel decision for the low RPM area. I've had good results with changing that decision matrix. If there was someone else to share the info with that could benefit from it, I would.
I think you said you had some headers before. I’m my experience with this bike anything more than that and it lacks fuel.. Stock might be good enough but more fuel helps the over all situation... You might come across that conclusion one day...
ac

 

[snakebitten]

My whole family designated me as the nerd many years ago.
And compared to them, I am.

But compared to you guys?

I love the way my bone stock motor (air filter, exhaust) runs with the ECU-U flash.
But I wasn't unhappy with it before the flash. At least not enough for it to reduce my affection for the bike.

And since my flash was version 2, that proved version 1 could be improved with more fiddling. Thus I have no doubt that if you nerds keep fiddling, you will likely improve on v2.

But I think I'm gonna just ride while yaw get it figured out.

Geeks.

 

[~TABASCO~]

Yeah, I heard all about that.

Sure...I bet the ECU-U is excellent. I've never said it wasn't.

I'm also 100% confident that someone could attain the same result...and possibly better for THEM with the unrestricted ability to tune parameters.

Why don't you release this secret information you have? It can't offend me. I have nothing to lose...I don't make money selling ECU flashes on the forum. I'm just here as a fellow enthusiast like MOST of the guys on this forum.

ac

Your right, it could be much better that the ECU-U.. It would defiantly give anyone the opportunity to do anything they want... Good luck with your tuning...

 

[Dallara]

Give me a bit, I'll post the stock 6th gear maps. I have NO CLUE what the ECU-U maps look like.

ac

As you discussed, AVC, I was doing much the same as you are when I used the Technoresearch VDST with the Ducati Hypermotard ECU's. I understand where you're coming from.

Dallara



~

 

[~TABASCO~]

My whole family designated me as the nerd many years ago.
And compared to them, I am.

But compared to you guys?

I love the way my bone stock motor (air filter, exhaust) runs with the ECU-U flash.
But I wasn't unhappy with it before the flash. At least not enough for it to reduce my affection for the bike.

And since my flash was version 2, that proved version 1 could be improved with more fiddling. Thus I have no doubt that if you nerds keep fiddling, you will likely improve on v2.

But I think I'm gonna just ride while yaw get it figured out.

Geeks.

I’m super engine dork.... This is a blast messing with this bike and all the parts that are out for it ! What a hoot talking about tweaking a few new parts so we can have fun on the weekends !!! ::008::

Snake, you mean you haven’t heard about the new cams and pistons being developed for the ST1200 ??? WHOLE NEW GAME... your slow ! ::013::

 

[avc8130]

Jaxon,

Do I even care? Nope. That is why I went out of my way to work with a company to develop the EXACT solution I wanted. Don't care at all.

I don't care if no one else with a Tenere buys one. Doesn't matter to me. I don't make a living from selling products for the Tenere. I own a Tenere as a hobby. Playing with the tuning parameters is just that to me also: a HOBBY.

If I hit a brick wall and want to knock it down, I'll hit up a dyno. Until then, I am happy playing with the throttle maps and decel. Am I leaving some on the table by not playing with timing and/or fuel? MAYBE. So far I am ok. Every once in a while I could stand to leave something on the table. Maybe I wouldn't be such a fatty if I did it more often.

How do you know the end user wouldn't get to the same point or a BETTER point? Do you know, EXACTLY, what ECU-U did?

I do have headers. I do have a Leo Vince exhaust. I've looked at EVERY PCV map I could get my hand on. I see NONE where "more fuel all over" is employed.

I'm not sure why this is turning into an ECU-U Re-flash vs a Flash Tune Tuning Interface discussion. As difficult as it might seem, these 2 products actually serve completely different purposes.

The ECU-U is a better product for the vast majority of owners. Without a good base of FT developed files, the interface is way above what the vast majority of adventure touring riders need/want.

ac

 

[avc8130]

These are the STOCK 6th gear throttle maps:

"T" mode:


"S" mode:


ac

 

[avc8130]

As you can see from the maps, S mode is just about linear 1:1 wrist to TBs. T mode, by comparison, is "lagging". Generally the TBs are opened less than the wrist is requesting.

A "cheap" way to feel more power is to create a "ramping" map. That is to have the TBs open MORE than the right wrist requests. Within reason this is VERY fun.

ac