My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

[sigeye]

Re: My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

Quite some mystery but I think Nikolajsen may be on to something with his earlier post (24/7). It could be the case that if the throttle cables are not adjusted correctly, the throttle sensor could be shutting down CC as the grip is turned towards/past the closed position. Indeed the closing sensor could be faulty.

I am assuming the battery terminals are snug & the battery in good condition as any voltage drop could trouble CC. If that is OK then we have to think there is a bug in the ABS system. I note there is an 'ABS off' switch present, but I believe the OP has had that ruled out already. Are the tyres OE sizes - I have seen a disparity in wheel OS diameters front to rear interfere with ABS, TC & CC, but I didn't think the Yamaha system was that sensitive given the range of tyres we see commonly.

If all that is correct, then it just has to be an ABS sensor/wiring or the reluctor ring it looks at as the wheel turns, but one would have thought that would throw a code &/or the ABS light. Are there any witness marks on the face of the sensors? Are the RRs clean & true & the gap from sensor face to RR correct/consistent (dealer check) as these are shrouded on the S10. Seemingly the ABS sensor wiring is good, but we have had others say this, only to find the core has been damaged somehow by say road debris or during a tyre change.

Good luck finding the gremlin; let's hope Yamaha can help with a solution too .......................... KEN

Thanks everyone for your input so far.

If I've confirmed that the cables are routed and work correctly, and I've confirmed that the throttle close sensor is for sure not being contacted unless I'm very intentional with closing the throttle far forward... That should rule out any issues with it, right? Just checking in case I need clarity because I'm missing something.

I have Mitas E-07 Dakars on and have for about 12k miles. I would have had Continental TKC 70s around the time my cruise issues started. Always run OEM sizes, btw.

Also, all I've done is visually inspect that abs sensors and sensor magnetic rotors. Everything appears ok and the dealer certainly seemed to think so too. May need to look further into extensive verification.

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[Cycledude]

I would be very surprised if it turned out the ABS is causing your cruise control issues.

 

[sigeye]

Re: My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

I would be very surprised if it turned out the ABS is causing your cruise control issues.

I keep thinking it's the left handlebar switch or wiring harness. However, I've heard folks suggest the wheel speed sensors so much that I think it's a valid concern too. I sure hope the diagnostic tool monitored for it.

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[Squibb]

The thottle closure switch seems to be clear then, which doesn't leave us much scope.

However, for so many of us, it has always turned out to be the rear brake light switch. Ok, you have had the switch replaced, but is it adjusted correctly, with plenty of slack before the light switches on. In your situation, I think I would remove the RH heel plate & disconnect the switch from the rear brake pedal (spring affair) & then give it a try - remember you won't show a brake light without using the front lever, if anyone if following. Noting the regular failure to set the CC, improvemnt should be pretty quick to show, but take care out on the road. At the same time, while you are in there, it would be a good idea to remove the pedal fulcrum bolt, lube the fulcrum well, reassemble & make sure the pedal returns freely but firmly against the stop. It must not be able to waggle around or deflect over say bumps in the road, which can happen if the return spring is frail.

Good luck. I hope this helps. Have your dealers got any further response from Yamaha I wonder?

Ride safe .................. KEN

 

[EricV]

If the wheel sensors were the cause, wouldn't the ABS light come on for a moment at least or the traction control kick in or something along those lines? It seems more likely to be an intermittent switch. <snip> These intermittent problems are a horrible pain.

My thought here is that for the CC, a moment is enough to cut it out. For ABS and TCS, a moment isn't enough to impact those systems. ABS needs a lot more differential to engage. I believe TCS also does. CC only needs an interruption, no matter how small, to disengage.

However, as you indicated, there are a lot of other parts of the system where a momentary signal loss can cause this issue. Checking them all, with an intermittent fault, is a real chore.

 

[Gigitt]

I remember reading somewhere (may not be a s10) that some one had a similar issue and could not fault it.
finally dealer started to test each switch
the rear brake switch had 2 circuits inside: one for brakes and one for cruise... when brake circuit works the brake light goes on, when cruise circuit works it disable the cruise control... problem was the brake light was never turning on so the rear brake switch was dismissed as being the problem.

It actually was the 2nd circuit inside the rear brake switch for cruise that was faulty.

 

[mebgardner]

There is a clutch lever switch involved, too.

I don't think I've seen any discussion about it.

 

[RonH]

It appears to me after looking at the way the system works in the service manual, any fault that would turn off the system, such as the wheel sensor and the like causes the "set" light to flash for 4 seconds, then the whole system is shut off until manually turned back on. If the system is not turning off, then according to the manual it would then be a deactivation from one of the switches, the front brake, rear brake, clutch or manually turning the throttle reverse direction. The diagnostic tool may not be useful in this case, but hope for some good luck in finding the fault. Sometimes manuals are not 100% accurate however in how faults are displayed ect.

 

[Gigitt]

Can you disable the safety switches by unplugging the connector so that you eliminate that switch. Do this one at a time and go for a loop ride. then try the next switch etc hopefully you will have a random disabled cruise on every ride minus one ride = fault switch. but if all rides get a failure, then it definitely is a short to ground in the wiring.

The problem is that it is so random. this may not work!

A friend on a recent 2 day long ride developed a intermittent start issue on a Suzuki GXSR600.
I diagnosed it as a faulty clutch switch so we just unplugged the 2 wires at the switch and wire jumped them together shorting the connection. This kinda worked but the ECU did not like a 100% closed circuit and kept going into a limp mode with the fueling. so we then taped them together side by side and she had to manually short the connectors by squeezing them together when starting... then it all worked.
Dealer installed ASV short levers 500k prior to the trip, She took it back to get a replacement switch but dealer fixed the levers... there is a trick to aligning the clutch switch which was not done and so the switch became intermittent when you pulled the lever and the bike sometime might start or not at all.


Funny story... when i picked up my S10 i rode it home 950km across the border... I used the cruise a lot, but could not work out why it was cutting off all the time. sometimes over bumps, sometime when I went to stand and other times when I went from standing to sitting....
I did not know about the roll off negative throttle switch - and i was bumping the throttle with my wrist movements. I worked it out in the last 100km or so! LOL
When I got home I confirmed it with the manual.

 

[Dober]

Hi just a thought but you might want to have a buddy ride behind you for awhile. See if your brake light flickers every now and then. Maybe i didn't read the symptoms correctly but it sounds like the system is disabling
correctly just not when you want it to . Is this correct?

 

[Checkswrecks]

My thought here is that for the CC, a moment is enough to cut it out. For ABS and TCS, a moment isn't enough to impact those systems. ABS needs a lot more differential to engage. I believe TCS also does. CC only needs an interruption, no matter how small, to disengage.

However, as you indicated, there are a lot of other parts of the system where a momentary signal loss can cause this issue. Checking them all, with an intermittent fault, is a real chore.

+1

 

[Cycledude]

The thottle closure switch seems to be clear then, which doesn't leave us much scope.

However, for so many of us, it has always turned out to be the rear brake light switch. Ok, you have had the switch replaced, but is it adjusted correctly, with plenty of slack before the light switches on. In your situation, I think I would remove the RH heel plate & disconnect the switch from the rear brake pedal (spring affair) & then give it a try - remember you won't show a brake light without using the front lever, if anyone if following. Noting the regular failure to set the CC, improvemnt should be pretty quick to show, but take care out on the road. At the same time, while you are in there, it would be a good idea to remove the pedal fulcrum bolt, lube the fulcrum well, reassemble & make sure the pedal returns freely but firmly against the stop. It must not be able to waggle around or deflect over say bumps in the road, which can happen if the return spring is frail.

Good luck. I hope this helps. Have your dealers got any further response from Yamaha I wonder?

Ride safe .................. KEN

Like Squib I believe it's a problem with one of the switches or whatever activates those switches .

 

[sigeye]

Re: My bizarre &amp; seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

Thanks a lot for all your input everyone. I just sent a message to the dealership Service Manager to see if they've finished evaluating the diagnostic tool log. I hope to determine next steps with those results, and if no useful data comes back I'll be starting on the recommendations you all have shared.

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[blitz11]

"Bad" new parts are not that uncommon. My brother had (emphasis on had) a KTM 950 adventure. As precautionary maintenance, he replaced cooling system hoses and thermostat. Well, he then had overheating issues. He didn't think in terms of a new part being bad, but after a week of wrecking my vacation goofing with his crappy bike, he accepted the fact that the new thermostat was bad. It took days to convince him that the thermostat was bad. He was going to limp it home but i made him tear the guts out of the thermostat. low and behold, the bike didn't overheat. Fixed.

The frustrating thing is that he's a six-sigma certified black belt quality guy, but he couldn't wrap his head around a bad new part. Ughhhh. i didn't see the barber museum 'cause we were messing with his bike the whole time.

The ABS/CC argument and intermittent signals makes the most sense to me. Automated systems HATE ambiguity, and if a switch is flakey (say they sample that switch at 20 or 50 Hz and they catch a different switch state), and you have one "faulty" reading, it's going to turn off. Ask Toyota about stuck throttles - the outcome isn't good for the customer, the passenger, or the company. If my CC input signals are "weird," Yamaha is going to turn it off.

A "zero" reading from an ABS wheel speed sensor isn't viewed as a fault as it could be interpreted as a skidding tire. Traction control wouldn't freak, either, with zero wheel speed. However, if the CC sensed zero wheel speed when it was commanding throttle, THAT would be an issue. Better turn that CC off.

If you had access to a Picoscope or other small oscilliscope (e.g., https://www.adafruit.com/product/468?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgOa1yuun1QIVSIV-Ch06zgClEAQYASABEgIbxPD_BwE), you could log and view the output of the wheel speed sensors and the switch gear to see if you see dead signals or switch "bounce." I hope that the Yamaha data logger samples fast enough to catch switch bounce. For $100, it might be worth your while.

 

[Nikolajsen]

That's also wht I have been writing about trying to test ride with TCS disable.
Because if the TCS also resets, then I believe it is the wheel sensor.
Because the TCS wil not reset when brake or cluth levers are activated.

 

[sigeye]

Re: My bizarre &amp; seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

That's also wht I have been writing about trying to test ride with TCS disable.
Because if the TCS also resets, then I believe it is the wheel sensor.
Because the TCS wil not reset when brake or cluth levers are activated.

This will be easy enough for me to try when I return home this evening from business. I'll report back with results.

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[sigeye]

Re: My bizarre &amp; seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

Just test rode and cruise shut off again while TCS was disabled. TCS remained off (did not reset) and the amber cruise light never flashed.

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[RonH]

According to the service manual, even if the TCS is shut off, if the motorcycle detects wheel spin the cruise will be shut off, however the SET will flash indicating a problem. Still seems like one of the switches or associated wiring are best odds of being the cause.

 

[sigeye]

Re: My bizarre &amp; seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

I can confirm that the set light did not flash. It just went away as usual.

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[sigeye]

Re: My bizarre &amp; seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

The thottle closure switch seems to be clear then, which doesn't leave us much scope.

However, for so many of us, it has always turned out to be the rear brake light switch. Ok, you have had the switch replaced, but is it adjusted correctly, with plenty of slack before the light switches on. In your situation, I think I would remove the RH heel plate & disconnect the switch from the rear brake pedal (spring affair) & then give it a try - remember you won't show a brake light without using the front lever, if anyone if following. Noting the regular failure to set the CC, improvemnt should be pretty quick to show, but take care out on the road. At the same time, while you are in there, it would be a good idea to remove the pedal fulcrum bolt, lube the fulcrum well, reassemble & make sure the pedal returns freely but firmly against the stop. It must not be able to waggle around or deflect over say bumps in the road, which can happen if the return spring is frail.

Good luck. I hope this helps. Have your dealers got any further response from Yamaha I wonder?

Ride safe .................. KEN

I was just going back and revisiting ideas that came in while I was away, and this idea of disconnecting the rear brake switch is a good simple one I'll try after work tomorrow. I'll report back on this too.

I also found out this afternoon from Yamaha that I should not expect feedback from the diagnostic tool data until late this week or early next week. Bummer, but it is what it is.

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