My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

[sigeye]

Hi everyone,

I have a 2014 Super Tenere ES that I bought new in April of 2014 and it now has 43k miles. I did not buy any extended warranties when I purchased it, FYI.

This motorcycle has been the best motorcycle I have ever had, and it is the only motorcycle I've ever had that continues to keep me 100% satisfied with no desires to replace it. That's saying a lot 'for me' because my history is basically a new bike every 1 - 1.5/years I've also kept up on all maintenance by the book.

However, my bike has been plagued with some sort of neurological issue that not only has stumped me, but also has stumped the dealership and even factory Yamaha technical support thus far. In short, I've had intermittent cruise control issues since 20k miles and around December of 2015. I've never been able to permanently resolve the issue but it sometimes gets better and sometimes gets worse. Here's a rundown:

Symptoms:
1. Cruise control randomly cancels itself with no apparent warning, errors, reasons, etc. I'll just be cruising along and it will disable as if a safety was tripped. No warning lights flash, no error codes present, smooth roads, no hills, no lean angles...(you get the point). This can happen as soon as seconds after 'setting' cruise control or as much as 2/hours after. Although, this is much worse as of lately. I can get at least 3 failures every 5 minutes while set.
2. Along with symptom# 1 above, sometimes it will not 'set' in the first button push and sometimes not even in the first 3-4 'set' button pushes. No green 'set' light appears on the meter and no speed control takes place. Then it will suddenly set and hold for seconds or minutes before repeating symptom #1.
Notes: During all the above symptoms, I never receive any errors or warnings. I also never experience any odd behaviors whatsoever from the bike. It will reliably hold on smooth flat surfaces at allowable cruise controls speeds just as much as it will on a very rough surface. Bumps, jars, etc. seem to make absolutely no difference in when it fails.

Attempted Repairs (none have fixed it & yes all fuses are OK)
1. Checked and rear brake pedal and switch - OK (never messed with it before anyway)
2. Later, replaced rear brake switch with OEM just to try.
3. Checked and confirmed kickstand switch is OK. Replaced spring with OEM.
4. Checked and confirmed lean angle sensor is OK.
5. Confirmed no damage to wheel sensor rotors or rotor sensors. Done this multiple times and as recently as last night.
6. Replaced both left and right handlebar switches with OEM about 6 months ago. Including new clutch switch and front brake switch.
7. Replaced brake light relay with OEM.
8. Cleaned every connector (and I mean every) on the entire wiring harness and sub-harness. No corrosion and not apparent issues.
9. Toned the G/L (green & blue) wire and orange wire associated with cruise control power button and cruise control set button from harness receiver connector (joins with pigtail leading to left handlebar switch) all the way to the ECU connector. Toned perfectly OK.
10. Took apart the wire harness insulation and bundling between the connection bundle associated with the left handlebar switch and ECU connectors and visually inspected for any damage, kinks, etc. No issues.
11. Completely disconnected all accessories and ABS kill switch (removed wiring and reinserted 30a fuse).
12. Paid Yamaha dealership to try to try to resolve. After 4 days of troubleshooting, they were unable to find the source of the problem. During this time, they worked with Yamaha's technical support and many jumpers were installed to bypass all safeties, etc. All to no avail and no resolution. There were no errors present in the ECU nor in the ABS ECU.
13. Yamaha technical support offered to replace ECU with option to return if it does not resolve issue. Ordered new OEM ECU and installed. Cruise control failed again 7 times in 7 miles. Returned ECU.
14. Recently, Yamaha requested dealer install the factory Yamaha Diagnostic Tool and have me ride it for 1/hour through 6 power cycles. Did this just 2 days ago on Saturday 07/22. Waiting on results.

My current thoughts
1. Could it be possible that not only my original left handlebar switch was bad, but also the OEM replacement is too? This would mean I would be installing my 3rd left handlebar switch at just 42k miles. I took the entire switch apart last weekend to see if I could tone wires from the handlebar switches down to the end of the pigtail connector that connects to the main wiring harness. I was unable to because there must be resistors inline because black and red consolidated wires at the switch turn into completely different and more wires at the connector.
2. Even though I've had no ABS issues or symptoms whatsoever. Could it be possible that the wheel sensors are causing this? The dealership checked and said there were no errors in the ABS ECU that would indicate such, but I don't think they can actually be checked...just replaced, right?

I'm at a loss and I'm super bummed because I've thrown everything I can imagine at this issue and it just won't uncover itself. I'm not made of money so I can't just keep throwing $$ at it, but if I feel confident in something...I love the bike enough to spend the $$. The entire wire harness is $750ish and I'm dreading the thought of having to replace that, but as time has gone on...the dealer and I are starting to doubt that the wire harness is even the issue.

Do any of you have any suggestions or input for some new ideas?

 

[sigeye]

BTW, I should have said this in my original post, but I want to share now.

The dealership has been amazing in their attempt to resolve and I hope that my post absolutely sheds no poor light on them or Yamaha. All parties are doing everything possible, but it is like we're chasing an invisible enemy. I'm hoping that the Yamaha Diagnostic Tool hour long test ride sheds light on something, but I'm preparing for the worst just in case.

 

[Dogdaze]

As you've listed all possible check areas, might I suggest that the actual harness has a 'short' in it? Maybe kinked or eaten through by wildlife, seems like a bulb that flickers due to faulty wiring. I know it does not help, and I also know how frustrating it can be, as if it was me, the bike would have been long gone. Good luck, and I hope someone on here comes along with a eureka moment for you ::008::

 

[Nikolajsen]

The only thing I didn't read about in your post, is the fact that the cruise control also will disable when the trottle in turn like closing for the trottle.
I don't know how this could happen, or how it works (yet), but this is the only thing I didn't read about.

Maybe the electronic that is "holding" the trottle is failng. So the "brain" in all the electronic, think that you have turned down the trottle, and therefore no error.
Good luck.

 

[sigeye]

Re: My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

Thanks for your replies so far gentleman. Forward throttle for cruise cancellation is OK and has been ruled out. I forgot to mention that.

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[Sierra1]

I'm with Dogdaze, if the diagnostic tool reveals nothing, trade it in. Good luck.

 

[WaltM]

When you say the cruise control cancels do you mean that you then need to hit the round button to turn the cruise control system back on or that you are cruising at say 60 mph not touching anything and the cruise control resets but you do not have to hit the round button again?


Walt

 

[EricV]

You have an intermittent loss of signal. VSS would be my guess, but there are some basic questions to ask first.

Who changes your tires?

Do you remove the wheels and take them in yourself, or let the shop do it all?

Either the speed sensors related to ABS are damaged, leading to this intermittent signal lost that appears random, or the main VSS signal wire, despite tone check, has an intermittent failure. Just because it toned ok, doesn't mean it doesn't have damage, only that it was reading fine when tone checked. Which is the nature of intermittent failure. Unless you happen to be checking it when it fails, you won't see anything unusual.

My first guess would be someone removed a wheel w/o removing a sensor and damaged the ABS sensor wire. This is difficult to check for unless it's a total failure. This fits with both your intermittent failure mode, and that it started at around 20k miles. (Any chance that was shortly after getting new tires?)

I can't think of any reason you would cut the VSS wire on a '14 bike. It's commonly done for installing a CC or gear indicator/SpeedOhealer on the Gen I bikes. But if you did, that would be the first place to look. Typically if this fails though, you get engine check lights and the speedo fails. Since you are not seeing that, (apparently), the direction of my thoughts runs to the ABS sensors and wires, which can easily be damaged with a good yank when still attached to the sensor cover on the wheel.

 

[sigeye]

Re: My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

When you say the cruise control cancels do you mean that you then need to hit the round button to turn the cruise control system back on or that you are cruising at say 60 mph not touching anything and the cruise control resets but you do not have to hit the round button again?


Walt

Cruise cancels with no warning and simply the 'set' light goes out. Amber light for cruise power remains on and steady. So I have to hit 'set' again until it fails the next time.

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[sigeye]

Re: My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

You have an intermittent loss of signal. VSS would be my guess, but there are some basic questions to ask first.

Who changes your tires?

Do you remove the wheels and take them in yourself, or let the shop do it all?

Either the speed sensors related to ABS are damaged, leading to this intermittent signal lost that appears random, or the main VSS signal wire, despite tone check, has an intermittent failure. Just because it toned ok, doesn't mean it doesn't have damage, only that it was reading fine when tone checked. Which is the nature of intermittent failure. Unless you happen to be checking it when it fails, you won't see anything unusual.

My first guess would be someone removed a wheel w/o removing a sensor and damaged the ABS sensor wire. This is difficult to check for unless it's a total failure. This fits with both your intermittent failure mode, and that it started at around 20k miles. (Any chance that was shortly after getting new tires?)

I can't think of any reason you would cut the VSS wire on a '14 bike. It's commonly done for installing a CC or gear indicator/SpeedOhealer on the Gen I bikes. But if you did, that would be the first place to look. Typically if this fails though, you get engine check lights and the speedo fails. Since you are not seeing that, (apparently), the direction of my thoughts runs to the ABS sensors and wires, which can easily be damaged with a good yank when still attached to the sensor cover on the wheel.

I've been the only person to ever change the tires on the bike and therefore the only one to ever remove the wheels. I've always been very delicate with the abs sensors and have always removed them first and installed them last. No apparent damage from inspection, but I agree that they could have in fact been damaged at some point. I always clean them before remounting the wheels, and I never allow magnets near them.

Also, correct, I've not cut any wires associated with these.

I'm beginning to suspect wheel sensors as well, but I know I should hopefully hear the results of the diagnostic tool within the next two days. I just don't know what that tool monitors and does not monitor, and therefore don't know its diagnostic limitations.

I will say that I've never had a TCS error or issue, nor any speedometer related issues. I know that does not prove anything, but it just seems to make a good argument for them being OK (likely).

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[Checkswrecks]

I and every avionics tech hates these ghost problems. At least yours just cancels the cruise being on. It very much sounds like an intermittent open or short circuit.


The wheelspeed sensors definitely could be suspect. Closely look at every inch of the full length of each for a poke inward or outward. As I remember, those are shielded, so any kink or knick would be cause for replacement, as the core may be contacting a stray strand from the shielding braid.


If nothing else, my guess is that a bullet in one of the connectors is not properly installed. Sometimes the automated harnessing machines can leave a little insulation between the bullet and the wire core (insufficient strip), or leave the bullet a bit loose (sufficient crimp). You mentioned the techs trying jumpers and you cleaned each connector, so they were probably on the same thought. Unfortunately, these are the hardest to find and usually lead to replacing the harness.

 

[Crew Chief]

Yes the speed sensors could cause that. checkswrecks comment brought something to mind. We had a spate of prop problems on our C-130's where the speed wasn't being controlled properly. The very short version is that the magnet in the sensor was installed with the polarity backwards. It would actually pass our tests and indeed it worked most of the time, but when the prop was in certain demanding situations the system couldn't sense the signal quickly enough to keep things under control. If that's the case here, the system probably turns off the throttle control. I'm not certain what tests are available for the speed sensor, but in addition to the wiring, I would look into all of them. Resistance on the pickup, strength of the magnets, air gap etc. FWIW, I haven't pulled a Tenere wheel yet to see how they are put together. If good testing protocols aren't available, I might would consider replacing those components although I haven't looked into the cost of them. That maybe something that their diagnostic system monitored too. We can hope. Good luck

 

[RonH]

If the wheel sensors were the cause, wouldn't the ABS light come on for a moment at least or the traction control kick in or something along those lines? It seems more likely to be an intermittent switch. Clutch, front brake, rear brake or associated wiring. Hopefully if you get the diagnostic tool it lets you monitor these while riding, but I've never seen a motorcycle scanner like they use on cars/trucks.
I know I had the same thing happening on my 1997 Ford truck, and I hooked up the scanner and drove around. Every time the cruise shut down, the scanner said "brakes applied", when my foot was not even near the brakes. Ended up being the turn signal switch was corroded and leaking voltage to the brake lamps intermittently triggering the cruise to shut off. Like I said, I doubt you can test a motorcycle this way, but you may be able to hook a meter up to certain wiring that these switches are wired with and ride around til the problem happens and see what switch voltage is going afoul when the problem happens. These intermittent problems are a horrible pain. I was in electronics repair for 34 long hard years.

 

[VRODE]

Would the throttle position sensor come into play? I was wondering if it was a case of losing track of the TPS and shutting down the CC.

 

[Crew Chief]

If the wheel sensors were the cause, wouldn't the ABS light come on for a moment at least or the traction control kick in or something along those lines?

Possibly, but it really depends on what parameters the computer system is looking for in each of those systems. It could also be something like your voltage leak causing it. The more inputs into the system. The more possibilities for failure.

 

[sigeye]

Re: My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

I concur that I should start replacing the wheel speed sensors if nothing comes of the diagnostic tool data evaluation.

I'm waiting very eagerly for the dealer to call back with the results of the evaluation that Yamaha performs!

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[Cycledude]

My first 1800 wing had a very similar cruise control issue, since it was under warranty I tried getting it fixed at at least 3 different dealers, when ever they took it for ride it worked perfect so they told me I must be accidentally hitting the brakes or something causing it to cancel the cruise, finally after 40,000 miles the cruise completely quit working, so they replaced the cruise set switch under warranty and it never gave me any trouble again.

 

[Nikolajsen]

If it is the wheel sensor, I think it should also influense the TCS.
Therefore, have you tried to disable TCS and go for a ride, then when the problem occur, (and if it is a wheel sensor), I believe that the TCS also should be reset to standard.

 

[Squibb]

Quite some mystery but I think Nikolajsen may be on to something with his earlier post (24/7). It could be the case that if the throttle cables are not adjusted correctly, the throttle sensor could be shutting down CC as the grip is turned towards/past the closed position. Indeed the closing sensor could be faulty.

I am assuming the battery terminals are snug & the battery in good condition as any voltage drop could trouble CC. If that is OK then we have to think there is a bug in the ABS system. I note there is an 'ABS off' switch present, but I believe the OP has had that ruled out already. Are the tyres OE sizes - I have seen a disparity in wheel OS diameters front to rear interfere with ABS, TC & CC, but I didn't think the Yamaha system was that sensitive given the range of tyres we see commonly.

If all that is correct, then it just has to be an ABS sensor/wiring or the reluctor ring it looks at as the wheel turns, but one would have thought that would throw a code &/or the ABS light. Are there any witness marks on the face of the sensors? Are the RRs clean & true & the gap from sensor face to RR correct/consistent (dealer check) as these are shrouded on the S10. Seemingly the ABS sensor wiring is good, but we have had others say this, only to find the core has been damaged somehow by say road debris or during a tyre change.

Good luck finding the gremlin; let's hope Yamaha can help with a solution too .......................... KEN

 

[sigeye]

Re: My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

If it is the wheel sensor, I think it should also influense the TCS.
Therefore, have you tried to disable TCS and go for a ride, then when the problem occur, (and if it is a wheel sensor), I believe that the TCS also should be reset to standard.

Have not tried this but will try on Thursday when I'm back. Never seen or felt any faults, but this is another thing to try.

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