My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

[mebgardner]

It's kind of reminded of something on my ex Versys. I installed a analogue Coolant temperature gauge and found that at idling, the needle fluctuates, possibly due to the R&R not giving out a good DC power. I placed a 330uF capacitor (didn't do a calculation, just what I had) across the terminals of the Gauge and viola......the needle stopped fluctuating.

OK, now that I recall that the R&R is not giving a clean DC source, there are still some ripples in there in the power source, so perhaps this is causing the chatter in the relays? My observations (on the Versys) is that at idling RPM, the ripple effect is greater than when it is above the idling. If the issue occurs mostly when the Revs are low, then this could be a potential source of the problem. (And the fix is some Capacitor in the circuit in parallel).

Wish I have a Gen 2 to test out the theory.

On another note, for the heck of it, I have 4X 22,000uF Capacitors placed in parallel to the battery on the S10. Better throttle response. From a better DC-like source, perhaps? I dunno but I'll take better.

"OK, now that I recall that the R&R is not giving a clean DC source, there are still some ripples in there in the power source, so perhaps this is causing the chatter in the relays?"

So, that would have to be some severe ripple to bring the RMS "average" of the 12VDC to be less than the source needed to pull a relay. Very Severe. But, I do not have anyone telling me they have taken a 'scope to the RR output yet, so... it's possible. Possible, but unlikely IMO.

This is the first I hear of two things:
1) Someone has improved a gen1 throttle response by placing caps "across" (in parallel with) the battery (I think, at the battery is what I read here), and
2) The Gen1 S10 RR output is noisy? (Relatively high ripple, is how I interpret what I read here).

Has anyone put a scope across a Gen2 RR output?

 

[mebgardner]

It's kind of reminded of something on my ex Versys. I installed a analogue Coolant temperature gauge and found that at idling, the needle fluctuates, possibly due to the R&R not giving out a good DC power. I placed a 330uF capacitor (didn't do a calculation, just what I had) across the terminals of the Gauge and viola......the needle stopped fluctuating.

OK, now that I recall that the R&R is not giving a clean DC source, there are still some ripples in there in the power source, so perhaps this is causing the chatter in the relays? My observations (on the Versys) is that at idling RPM, the ripple effect is greater than when it is above the idling. If the issue occurs mostly when the Revs are low, then this could be a potential source of the problem. (And the fix is some Capacitor in the circuit in parallel).

Wish I have a Gen 2 to test out the theory.

On another note, for the heck of it, I have 4X 22,000uF Capacitors placed in parallel to the battery on the S10. Better throttle response. From a better DC-like source, perhaps? I dunno but I'll take better.

2DaMax:

"On another note, for the heck of it, I have 4X 22,000uF Capacitors placed in parallel to the battery on the S10. Better throttle response. From a better DC-like source, perhaps? I dunno but I'll take better."

When you say "better", how would you describe "better"? Whats better?

 

[mebgardner]

I dusted off my analog VOM, this is an old unit that I built from a kit in high school electric class, 47 years ago! I mention this because it's quality, accuracy and reliability are obviously suspect so keep that in mind as I report my findings.
My brake switch assembly is mounted on the handlebar and I'm activating it by pulling and releasing the front brake lever.
I unplugged the brake switch harness and my VOM probes are inserted into the terminal end of the harness. VOM scale set at Rx10, and the needle swings from infinity to zero when I touch the probes.
Testing the cruise switch, probes in the yellow/black and yellow/white wire terminals. The switch is normally closed. As I move the brake lever back and forth I can hear the micro-switch click on and off, and my needle swings freely and uninterrupted between zero and infinity. I repeated this dozens of times, moving the lever quickly and slowly, no fault found.
Testing the brake light switch, probes in the green/white and green/yellow wire terminals. The switch is normally closed but I noticed the needle didn't zero, stayed at 9 ohms. I touched the probes together and the needle zeroed so there is obviously resistance across this switch when closed. As I move the brake lever back and forth quickly the needle swings freely between 9 and infinity, but when moving the lever slowly the needle would bounce a couple times on its way down to 9. Moving the lever very slowly I could stop the needle at varying resistances between 9 and infinity, almost as if it were a potentiometer. This should confirm a faulty switch.
But.... if it is faulty I don't understand how this would set code 90, as all this weird brake light switch behavior is happening after the cruise switch is open.
Another observation..... I removed the brake light relay just to check the connections, it and the harness are fitted inside a holder to mount it to the bike, the holder has plastic clips to hold the relay and harness in place. All four plastic clips broke off when I tried to spring them open, I'm wondering if this assembly has been overheated to the point of making the plastic brittle.
I welcome comments. ;D

Garry:

IMO, You're not done yet with checking things out on your cycle.

You should also be looking at the clutch side switch-pack.

Since the primary debug is your CCC, you still have those clutch side switches to look at. Keep Going

 

[mebgardner]

Does anyone want to attempt to find a solid state replacement for the BLC relay?

I'm thinking that the *possible* early failure mode of the switches may be related to supporting a relatively high current path through multiple switch points / contacts?

I say "relatively, because I assume the BLC relay does not draw much more than 300-500 ma of current. That would be the extreme upper end of what I would expect for a single relay. But, we've got indications that it's hot, and I think we know it's "always on" / always energized.

So, I have in view the make / break instantaneous current of a coil de-energizing / re-energizing, on each pull of a brake lever / pedal. ie: Often.

"Old School" switches would have no problem. But, these are "modern" micro switches, handling the same current.

The make / break current associated with a coil is many many times larger than the steady state current.

Maybe we have premature switch failure from too high current through many switch contact points?

I now wish I had kept my switch assembly that I gave to the shop for warranty exchange.

I hope I'm not too soon on this point, but there is also the potential for recall / TSB, due to a safety critical system (the BLC) failing, with the failure mode resulting in "brake light on constantly", or "brake light failure to illuminate", or maybe both (intermittent and changing mode upon cycling a lever and / or pedal).

I sure wish I could have kept that switch... You folks may consider keeping your defective parts for examination in controlled conditions.

 

[scott123007]

I am curiously watching this thread to see how this all turns out, but I suspect that if these relays are as potentially over burdened as you suggest, the failure rate on these switches would be a lot higher than just a few? There are thousands of Tenere's out there and there is not a huge variance in how much the brakes are operated between one bike and another.
Having said that, I would suspect, that if every Tenere that a customer installed a flashing brake light on suffered this problem, you would be on to something.
Kudo's for your effort, though, you have way more diligence than I. ::012::

 

[Checkswrecks]

If you have a brake light switch that is actually faulty, file a report with NHTSA at https://www.safercar.gov It's the one thing that both the Govt and manufacturers watch closely, and can lead to a recall.


For non-essentials like the cruise itself not engaging, I wouldn't bother even though you can file a report.

 

[mebgardner]

I am curiously watching this thread to see how this all turns out, but I suspect that if these relays are as potentially over burdened as you suggest, the failure rate on these switches would be a lot higher than just a few? There are thousands of Tenere's out there and there is not a huge variance in how much the brakes are operated between one bike and another.
Having said that, I would suspect, that if every Tenere that a customer installed a flashing brake light on suffered this problem, you would be on to something.
Kudo's for your effort, though, you have way more diligence than I. ::012::

There's merit in what you write.

I can not tell how widespread the *potential* issue might be, I don't think every Tenere owner is represented or a member of the forum.

There could also be a "cut in" issue, with say a new source of switches. It's possible...

I'm going to clarify something you wrote, if I may please.

This:
"Having said that, I would suspect, that if every Tenere that a customer installed a flashing brake light on suffered this problem, you would be on to something."

I think I understand you have the output circuit of the BLC relay in view here. I clarify there's nothing wrong in the output circuit, but I did understand you're talking about inserting an aftermarket "flasher" into it. IMO, that would not affect the behavior, or the potential failure mode in view here.

It's the input circuit, the relay "energizing path", in view here. They are separate circuits.

Still your point of a relatively small sample complaining, is valid.

 

[mebgardner]

If you have a brake light switch that is actually faulty, file a report with NHTSA at https://www.safercar.gov It's the one thing that both the Govt and manufacturers watch closely, and can lead to a recall.


For non-essentials like the cruise itself not engaging, I wouldn't bother even though you can file a report.

[Questions Retracted ]

Thanks, Checks!

 

[mebgardner]

Dealer Service Dept: Switch ETA unknown, request in process.

That's all I know this morning.

 

[WJBertrand]

I find myself wondering why anyone (Yamaha especially) would use a normally open relay and then power it constantly? There are normally closed, or 5-terminal switch-over relays for this purpose.

 

[mebgardner]

I find myself wondering why anyone (Yamaha especially) would use a normally open relay and then power it constantly? There are normally closed, or 5-terminal switch-over relays for this purpose.

Yes. But, this is anecdotal info to me, this being constantly energized. So, mebbe it's wrong? Anyone want to confirm it for us?

 

[EricV]

Yes. But, this is anecdotal info to me, this being constantly energized. So, mebbe it's wrong? Anyone want to confirm it for us?

I took the similar switch apart and tested it to determine how it was set up when I was going to use the '13 FJR left switch housing, (which contains CC switches), as the switch control for adding a Rostra CC to my '12 Super Ten. Everything is run by momentarily breaking the ground circuit to signal the ECU. I had to wire it in reverse to get it to play with the Rostra unit which was wanting a 12v signal, not an interruption of 12v. And use latching relays to make the momentary switch work like an on/off switch.

In other words, yes it really is a constantly energized hot mess. It simplifies the wiring if you're using all momentary switches to control things and just breaking the circuit to signal the ECU to make a change.

 

[gv550]

Garry:

IMO, You're not done yet with checking things out on your cycle.

You should also be looking at the clutch side switch-pack.

Since the primary debug is your CCC, you still have those clutch side switches to look at. Keep Going

I checked the clutch side switches,
Start interlock is normally open and wires are green/yellow and green/white, the wires measure infinite resistance open and zero closed. No bounce, a nice clean off/on all the time.
The cruise cancel switch is normally closed, brown and yellow/black wires, they measure zero resistance closed and infinite open. No bounce, a nice clean off/on all the time.
I have the relay removed, it is labelled OMRON G8HN-1C4T-DJ 12VDC. It is a sealed unit and I'm not about to try open it up as my bike is going to the dealer Friday for the new brake switch and harness and I want the bike to look stock and un-molested. I do confirm the relay is powered whenever the ignition is ON.

 

[mebgardner]

OK, good work, thanks guys.

"OMRON G8HN-1C4T-DJ 12VDC"

So, we're looking for a solid state replacement, if we can find one?

 

[mebgardner]

When I read that the relay was a "sealed unit", I had hopes that it was a potted module, and already solid state.

It's not.

It's a "simple plastic seal", which is OK... and it has a diode type surge suppressor built in, good.

Easily read Spec is located here:

http://omronfs.omron.com/en_US/ecb/products/pdf/en-g8hn.pdf

 

[gv550]

An interesting note about the relay, it has 5 spade terminals but only 4 of those terminals are used. There is no wire in the harness connected to terminal 5, but I expect there is a diode inside the relay to complete the circuit.

 

[mebgardner]

An interesting note about the relay, it has 5 spade terminals but only 4 of those terminals are used. There is no wire in the harness connected to terminal 5, but I expect there is a diode inside the relay to complete the circuit.

I believe you, but it's unexpected info. The data sheet clearly indicates the 5-blade relay shows the relay pins 3-5 making contact when the relay is energized, and 3-4 when de-energized.

What you've just described, is a relay that operates energized until released by breaking energizing circuit (opening one of the input circuit switches), and that it is *normally open* when energized (3-5, with 5 unused). De-energizing it mates the 3-4 pins, both pins in use.

That makes no sense on the surface of it. The output circuit is held "open" (unused) in normal operation, until de-energized. It's normally energized. It's de-energized by opening an normally closed input switch (the handlebar micro switches, and the rear brake pedal slider).

The relay completes the output circuit 3-4 when the levers or pedal is pressed (opening the input circuit)...

That's just bonkers complicated. We call this "inverse logic", or "negated logic" in the software world.


Edit:

So, this is all OK, as this is describing "good" system behavior. It's me, talking my way to understanding how the thing works: Pull the lever, Open the switch, Light the light. In that context, it's simple to understand.

 

[Crew Chief]

I haven't been getting notifications for this thread for some reason. I'm glad to see that EricV has verified that the relay is constantly powered. Its good to have confirmation from a competent mechanic who has actual hands on with this bike. I'm also glad that people are finding more common symptoms such as the relay chatter. I was surprised by the amount of responses and I've only done a quick read, but my initial impression is that the relay is a symptom and not the problem. I'm concerned that there is resistance across the switch when it's closed. I don't know how much resistance you'd have to insert into the circuit to chatter the relay, but I definitely think it could do that. Consider the relay I said I fixed a while back by adding a larger wire. It did not have enough current to energize. In this case that resistance would be reducing the current. I have not had time to digest all of this, but I am becoming a bit more concerned because this has implications for the ABS system too. The BLC has a branch that goes to the ABS ECM. I'm guessing that when it loses voltage it arms, but I don't know for certain. It may just mean the system is armed unnecessarily, but....??? It rates more consideration. On the other hand if the relay is failing and it is chattering because of an internal problem, the voltage fluctuation could conceivably cause a problem the ECU doesn't like and so it sets the error code. Whether it is one of the switches or the relay, I do think you guys have narrowed it down and are in the right area. I haven't seen this relay but I think y'all are describing a common Bosch type. They are not expensive so getting one from outside of Yamaha's parts system can't hurt.


You guys determinately have something to push Yamaha with now and if they don't respond quickly, I would do the NTSB thing as Checks suggests. With the brake light and possibly the ABS being involved there are safety considerations. Good work y'all.

 

[2daMax]

2DaMax:

"On another note, for the heck of it, I have 4X 22,000uF Capacitors placed in parallel to the battery on the S10. Better throttle response. From a better DC-like source, perhaps? I dunno but I'll take better."

When you say "better", how would you describe "better"? Whats better?

Better is what I felt with a little better response in the 2500 to 3500 rpm range when accelerating. Without it, I felt that that was a flat line power response. This RPM range is my frequently used power band when commuting. I doubt there is any HP improvements at all but some little extra improvements at low revs.

Bought from Aliexpress with Free Shipping. Low cost experiment. Years earlier I placed a 10,000uF cap to my car and felt the same "better" in the low revs. Got it off from a PC power supply that broke down.

 

[mebgardner]

I haven't been getting notifications for this thread for some reason. I'm glad to see that EricV has verified that the relay is constantly powered. Its good to have confirmation from a competent mechanic who has actual hands on with this bike. I'm also glad that people are finding more common symptoms such as the relay chatter. I was surprised by the amount of responses and I've only done a quick read, but my initial impression is that the relay is a symptom and not the problem. I'm concerned that there is resistance across the switch when it's closed. I don't know how much resistance you'd have to insert into the circuit to chatter the relay, but I definitely think it could do that. Consider the relay I said I fixed a while back by adding a larger wire. It did not have enough current to energize. In this case that resistance would be reducing the current. I have not had time to digest all of this, but I am becoming a bit more concerned because this has implications for the ABS system too. The BLC has a branch that goes to the ABS ECM. I'm guessing that when it loses voltage it arms, but I don't know for certain. It may just mean the system is armed unnecessarily, but....??? It rates more consideration. On the other hand if the relay is failing and it is chattering because of an internal problem, the voltage fluctuation could conceivably cause a problem the ECU doesn't like and so it sets the error code. Whether it is one of the switches or the relay, I do think you guys have narrowed it down and are in the right area. I haven't seen this relay but I think y'all are describing a common Bosch type. They are not expensive so getting one from outside of Yamaha's parts system can't hurt.


You guys determinately have something to push Yamaha with now and if they don't respond quickly, I would do the NTSB thing as Checks suggests. With the brake light and possibly the ABS being involved there are safety considerations. Good work y'all.

CrewChief:

I had switched my focus over to this thread, and I apologize for stranding you on the one I started, that's my fault. I'm sorry...

I will write a pointer on that other thread, pointing over here, for future folks.

So, this:

"BLC has a branch that goes to the ABS ECM. I'm guessing that when it loses voltage it arms, but I don't know for certain. It may just mean the system is armed unnecessarily, but....??? It rates more consideration. On the other hand if the relay is failing and it is chattering because of an internal problem, the voltage fluctuation could conceivably cause a problem the ECU doesn't like and so it sets the error code."

We have been looking for an electrical link between the BLC and CCC. I think you've nailed it. That is, there's the mechanical linkage between them (BLC and CCC switches in the same packages, on the handlebar, and the rear brake pedal), but we did not have a direct electrical link between them to assert a CCC flashing amber upon "attempt to enable" the CC. So, Nice Work, Thanks!

This is probably the two system's linkage mechanism that Garry is looking for, attempting to solve the CCC flashing amber, and refusal to engage CCC.

Since the linkage appears to exist, we can stop for the time being and wait for the BLC switches to be replaced.


"...I've only done a quick read, but my initial impression is that the relay is a symptom and not the problem."

I agree with your thought here. I'm leery of opening a sealed relay to investigate, I would likely break it. Garry broke his relay plastic case tabs, just getting it unmounted from it's cradle.

I also believe, from looking at the relay specs, that it (edit: Does Not) get too hot from internal electrical heat, from being on full-time. If the brittle plastic is symptomatic of something, it might be it's mounted position on the cycle. Maybe... Internal heat? I doubt it. I'll calculate the wattage when on, and post back later.


" I'm guessing that when it loses voltage it arms, but I don't know for certain. It may just mean the system is armed unnecessarily, but....??? It rates more consideration."

Ok, last point for now: This would be why I would be very reluctant to put any additional large capacitors into this system, yet. The rise / fall times with a 1000-10,000 uF cap would be substantially longer than stock, even with a 12VDC lamp across it. Let's say you did this (put in an extra cap), and the trigger time extended even 50 msec (.05 sec) on the ABS signal to the ECU. Well, how many teeth rotation of the ABS sensor is that? One "tooth" (hole in sensor wheel)? Two? Any delay represents a mismatch between the actual wheel rotation sensor signal, and the (potential) ABS system disconnect signal.

You want that? I don't think I do, even a little. Anyway, done for now. I'll be back later with relay "in use" wattage.