My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

[sigeye]

2DaMax: I eyeballed mine very carefully while I had the assembly dis-assembled in my hand. All these lever switches are completely, well and truly, sealed components. I can not get a meter lead on the tails, at the switches, either.

The switch actions sounded a crisp, clear "snick snick" mechanical sound upon on/ off actuation. Looking at them, listening to them, you would think they're fine. Nope! One (brake lever brake circuit) exhibited "switch bounce", seen on a VOM.

Something worth mentioning is that I certainly had an intermittent 'sticking' issue with the actual brake light relay in the electrical tray. For anyone experiencing issues with any brake system switches, I highly encourage them to spend the little bit of $ and replace the relay too.

 

[mebgardner]

Something worth mentioning is that I certainly had an intermittent 'sticking' issue with the actual brake light relay in the electrical tray. For anyone experiencing issues with any brake system switches, I highly encourage them to spend the little bit of $ and replace the relay too.

Huh. Y'know, I saw this on my cycle as well, and did not put 2+2 together until reading your tip.

Here's what I saw / heard: My ear is next to the right side cover, and I have my eyes on the rear brake light. I have my hand on the brake lever, and I'm squeezing increasingly harder on the lever, "through" the two assembly switches (1st is CCC, 2nd is BLC). I can feel the switches, and hear the "snick" of the mechanical switch point (not necessarialy the electrical switch point).

1st switch point, nothing changes. 2nd switch point (the BLC switch), and intermittently the brake light relay chatters. That is, not every pull / release cycle causes a "chatter" cycle on the relay.

The switch lever pull that causes a chatter result (only those lever pulls in view, from here):

Sometimes, the cycle of relay chatter exhibits a "normal" brake light illumination cycle: Pull "on" Release "off". That is, the relay chatters, but the lamp illumination appears well behaved.

Sometimes though, the cycle of relay chatter exhibits an "abnormal" brake light illumination cycle: Pull "on" Release "still on". That is, the relay chatters, and the lamp illumination activates and remains on (according to CrewChief, the brake relay remains energized until the lever / switch is "pulled" in, then the relay circuit opens, and the relay de-energizes, resulting in a brake light illumination "on").

The next pull / release cycle on the lever would clear it, and from there on, be "normal" again until the next intermittent fault where the light "sticks" on.

I *thought* I was experiencing only intermittent switch "bounce" failure, and did not investigate further.

But, the test results indicate something else is also "sticking", as well.

Two primary things appear in the path: The relay, and the switch (again). However, I am certain I did *not* see any intermittent failure to open / close on the switch while ohming it. It bounced intermittently, yes, many times I could see that.

But I do not believe I saw any failure to open / close upon actuation (of that single switch). That occurred solidly, every time.

... which points to: a potential relay issue, as well.

So, what is it that led you to believe your brake light relay had failed at some point?


Edit:

Here's a point where debugging this becomes difficult. This failure mode does not point at just the single switch and / or brake light relay. It also points at any weak electrical contact point that can open the circuit. That is,, if a (another) switch is "weak', or has a poor connection, it can also intermittently open the circuit and leave the brake light illuminated. The symptom ("light remains on" because relay is not energized) might sequence in response with one switch, but since the connections through all the switches are in series, one of them could be "weakly" connected. Looking like / appearing like a failed relay...

 

[bob dirt]

Sigeye, I'm sure you are busy with your new family chores and the cruise control has taken a back seat. Just a heads up, several more of us have reported similar cruise problems in the last month, all with flashing Amber light and SET doesn't work, some with code 90 as well.
Most are 2016 non ES, but two 2014s like yours. No proven solution yet in any of the threads but mebgardner found an electrical 'bounce' in the front brake switch. I read that you replaced your switch twice but I'm wondering if there may be a batch of bad switches in the parts system. Maybe we need to swap switches with another bike that doesn't have a problem?

Being a former HVAC contractor here in the desert, I have had several (100's) instances of defective parts that were either new out of the box or just short life spans. Things are not made like they were in the old days. Engineers set the specs and manufacturers make the parts to barely meet them with no over building. I would bet on bad switches ...just my 2 cents

 

[Gigitt]

A chattering relay means
1) the activation circuit is weak. That is the low power or earth signal controlled by the switch is producing a poor connection. I think out brake and clutch switches are earthed so that pulling on the lever you ground the switch. Check earth points.

OR

2) the relay is actually flaulty.

you said sometime the brake light stays on when releasing the lever. You have to test this by checking that the lever signal is not closed when brake light stays on. A weak or sticking relay can cause your brakelight to stay on also.

Pull the relay and see if you can open it up check inside. Because it is mechanical inside they can also be faulty.

 

[gv550]

I've also experienced the chattering relay sound. Working in my garage at night with the garage light off, my ear above the relay, my eyes on the amber cruise light, pulling on the front brake lever. I can pull and release the brake lever several times, the brake light illuminates the garage whenever it comes on, the relay clicks and sometimes chatters, and eventually the cruise light begins to flash. Go into diagnostics and code 90 is always there after the light flashes, clear it and do the same experiment with the rear brake pedal. It seems to take longer, likely 20-30 brake applications , the relay clicks or chatters and the cruise light will eventually flash and sure enough code 90 is stored.
I've had the rear brake switch apart, no micro-switches in there, just 2 large set of metal contacts and a sliding metal strip, nothing to bounce around in there.
I've had the front brake switch apart and held a micro-switch in each hand, I can press and release the cruise cancel switch dozens of times on its own, of course no relay sounds and no brake light...... and the cruise light has always stayed on solid. If I hold the cruise cancel switch in, I can press and release the brake light switch numerous times, the relay clicks and the light comes on and goes off as it should. If I release the cruise switch and press the brake light switch the amber light flashes at the same time the relay clicks. I then go in and clear the code, press the cruise switch then the light switch the relay clicks and the light comes on, release the cruise switch and the amber light flashes with no noise from the relay.

 

[mebgardner]

I've also experienced the chattering relay sound. Working in my garage at night with the garage light off, my ear above the relay, my eyes on the amber cruise light, pulling on the front brake lever. I can pull and release the brake lever several times, the brake light illuminates the garage whenever it comes on, the relay clicks and sometimes chatters, and eventually the cruise light begins to flash. Go into diagnostics and code 90 is always there after the light flashes, clear it and do the same experiment with the rear brake pedal. It seems to take longer, likely 20-30 brake applications , the relay clicks or chatters and the cruise light will eventually flash and sure enough code 90 is stored.
I've had the rear brake switch apart, no micro-switches in there, just 2 large set of metal contacts and a sliding metal strip, nothing to bounce around in there.
I've had the front brake switch apart and held a micro-switch in each hand, I can press and release the cruise cancel switch dozens of times on its own, of course no relay sounds and no brake light...... and the cruise light has always stayed on solid. If I hold the cruise cancel switch in, I can press and release the brake light switch numerous times, the relay clicks and the light comes on and goes off as it should. If I release the cruise switch and press the brake light switch the amber light flashes at the same time the relay clicks. I then go in and clear the code, press the cruise switch then the light switch the relay clicks and the light comes on, release the cruise switch and the amber light flashes with no noise from the relay.

Ok, I'll take this a little at a time:

"I can pull and release the brake lever several times, the brake light illuminates the garage whenever it comes on, the relay clicks and sometimes chatters, and eventually the cruise light begins to flash."

This may now indicate a switch exhibiting bounce. If you suspect this is true, you should try isolating that switch and do an ohmmeter test of it, using a VOM.

"... and do the same experiment with the rear brake pedal. It seems to take longer, likely 20-30 brake applications , the relay clicks or chatters and the cruise light will eventually flash and sure enough code 90 is stored."

You've correctly stated there are no micro switches in the rear brake circuit, just two "sliders", with robust copper nubs and tracks. You've been in there, so did you do a light burnish of the copper surfaces? I used a very light hand using a mini flat file, to remove a coating of tarnish. That, and a subsequent dry wipe with brake cleaner solvent to remove the OEM grease that was on the slides.

We're now also looking for "weak" contact surfaces. A copper surface coated with tarnish, qualifies for that description.

"If I release the cruise switch and press the brake light switch the amber light flashes at the same time the relay clicks. I then go in and clear the code, press the cruise switch then the light switch the relay clicks and the light comes on, release the cruise switch and the amber light flashes with no noise from the relay."

I believe this is correct system behavior. The CCC switch released (#1 not pressed in) before the BLC switch (#2 pressed in), would be a failure mode type of switch sequence. Fault code and flashing amber CC light, would be the expected result.

Reset sequence (start over), press CCC then BLC and relay clicks and (rear brake) light illuminates: This is expected and typical switch sequence. Release CCC (#1 switch) with a fault code and flashing amber CC light, would be an expected result.

So, all I sum from this is: A switch exhibiting possible "bounce" behavior (deduced from relay chattering), and possibly a failing relay, or conductor path in the relay de-energize circuit.

In other words, same symptoms as me

 

[mebgardner]

A chattering relay means
1) the activation circuit is weak. That is the low power or earth signal controlled by the switch is producing a poor connection. I think out brake and clutch switches are earthed so that pulling on the lever you ground the switch. Check earth points.

OR

2) the relay is actually flaulty.

you said sometime the brake light stays on when releasing the lever. You have to test this by checking that the lever signal is not closed when brake light stays on. A weak or sticking relay can cause your brakelight to stay on also.

Pull the relay and see if you can open it up check inside. Because it is mechanical inside they can also be faulty.

This is close, but CrewChief did a "deep dive" on the operation of the energizer paths of the brake light relay, and discovered: The relay is "always energized". Pressing the front brake lever, or rear brake pedal, de-energizes the relay path.

It's not as you've described, but it's not intuitive either.

When you "engage" / press either of these levers, you're "breaking" the ground path, not "making" it.

Yes, the relay itself still presents a possible problem. I'm waiting for Sigeye to check in, to tell us how he confirmed the relay replacement.

Your suggestions for checking the relay itself, are good ones. It's clear to me I will have to do this, since my cycle has the problem. It will have to wait until I get my front lever brake switch assembly back (a new, replacement one).

 

[gv550]

Yes, I cleaned the rear switch contacts and assembled it with dielectric grease.
I understand how a bouncing micro-switch can cause the relay to chatter, but nothing I do with the front brake light switch causes the cruise light to flash, only incorrectly sequencing the cruise switch causes the cruise light to flash and set code 90.
I can get the relay to chatter only with the switches mounted to the handlebar and operating the brake lever, I've never noticed the chatter when operating the light switch on it's own.
And why can I make the cruise light flash (and code 90 set) by operating the rear brake pedal, surely the front switch isn't bouncing then?
Did you find the bounce in the light switch or cruise switch?
I do have an old analog VOM from my high school days, supposed to rain all day tomorrow so maybe i'll poke around with it.

 

[mebgardner]

Yes, I cleaned the rear switch contacts and assembled it with dielectric grease.
I understand how a bouncing micro-switch can cause the relay to chatter, but nothing I do with the front brake light switch causes the cruise light to flash, only incorrectly sequencing the cruise switch causes the cruise light to flash and set code 90.
I can get the relay to chatter only with the switches mounted to the handlebar and operating the brake lever, I've never noticed the chatter when operating the light switch on it's own.
And why can I make the cruise light flash (and code 90 set) by operating the rear brake pedal, surely the front switch isn't bouncing then?
Did you find the bounce in the light switch or cruise switch?
I do have an old analog VOM from my high school days, supposed to rain all day tomorrow so maybe i'll poke around with it.

"... nothing I do with the front brake light switch causes the cruise light to flash, only incorrectly sequencing the cruise switch causes the cruise light to flash and set code 90."

I get how you could arrive at this conclusion. Two things:

a) You're likely looking for an intermittent failure mode. Incorrectly sequencing the switches manually, is a manual non-intermittent failure mode... *but* the resultant system behavior points the way about the intermittent failure you're looking for. That is, if you can find a manual way to sequence the system in the manner you're experiencing, then *perhaps* the intermittent will be found in that circuit, doing the same thing.
b) These two circuits, the CCC and the BLC, are interconnected. Have another look at the "other" thread, the one I started. CrewChief has done some preliminary work for us to tell us *how* they're interconnected. I have not discussed that idea at all in this thread, attempting to keep it as simple as possible as we discuss the symptoms and diagnosis one-thing-at-a-time.

Those two idea alone, make this difficult to figure out remotely via dialog, but let's us hang in there.

So, do the meter thing, and let us know how it goes for you.

"And why can I make the cruise light flash (and code 90 set) by operating the rear brake pedal, surely the front switch isn't bouncing then?"

It's not just the switches I have in view. It's potentially a "weak" (de)energizer circuit on the relay, or possibly the relay itself.

"Did you find the bounce in the light switch or cruise switch?"

The brake (BLC) switch, in the front brake lever assembly. The "2nd", or rearmost, switch.

 

[mebgardner]

I had another look at something previously written.

This : "I then go in and clear the code, press the cruise switch then the light switch the relay clicks and the light comes on, release the cruise switch and the amber light flashes with no noise from the relay."


I'm going on an assumption, that there is *no* relay in the CCC circuit. Is that true? I don't know.

You're not hearing a relay when the "fault" manually appears, sooo... does that confirm there's no relay, or is that symptomatic of your cycle's problem?

I don't know, but I'm asking...

 

[sigeye]

Re: My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

Funny thing about my relay replacement... Was that I didn't put near the amount of troubleshooting in that I'm sure some would have.

During troubleshooting early on, I found that the relay would chatter and stick when squeezing the front brake lever. What worried me most was the thought of my rear brake light being wacky while I'm commuting to and from work, in traffic.

While I was testing it during the above, I found that the rear brake light would intermittently stay in brake mode (bright). Sometimes that lasted for less than a second and sometimes it lasted for a few or longer. Either way, I saw it as a safety hazard and replaced the brake light relay and front brake switch at the same time with new OEM parts.

I didn't care to test further because any cause for concern was enough to justify not trusting the components.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[2daMax]

Have a read on this article on chatter and bounce in relays.

https://www.appliancedesign.com/articles/91388-switches-relays-cut-the-chatter

Bounce - caused by the impact of the mechanical swinging switch. Solve with a right R-C circuit (kind of like slowing down the applied voltage to the relay). Too much juice.

Chatter - caused by insufficient drive voltage/current to the relay. Too little juice.

From the description of the issues mentioned here, it seems to be chatter due to the multiple oscillations observed. Maybe a 220 or 330uF Capacitor placed in parallel to the actuation pins may help the under powered condition. Just thinking .....

Sorry, I have a Gen 1 and no access to a Gen 2.

 

[Gigitt]

This is close, but CrewChief did a "deep dive" on the operation of the energizer paths of the brake light relay, and discovered: The relay is "always energized". Pressing the front brake lever, or rear brake pedal, de-energizes the relay path.

It's not as you've described, but it's not intuitive either.

When you "engage" / press either of these levers, you're "breaking" the ground path, not "making" it.

Yes, the relay itself still presents a possible problem. I'm waiting for Sigeye to check in, to tell us how he confirmed the relay replacement.

Your suggestions for checking the relay itself, are good ones. It's clear to me I will have to do this, since my cycle has the problem. It will have to wait until I get my front lever brake switch assembly back (a new, replacement one).

OK this does not matter which way or how it works.

A relay is a mechanical switch that is controlled by a low voltage 'action' (on or off voltage) to turn on or off a high voltage source.

Because the relay is mechanical it can fail.
What can fail...
1) the induction coil can overheat/short out so it has less strength to pull against the contact spring - less strength = chatter.
2) the contact spring can fall off or weaken so that it will not fully return or open the contact points = chatter, wierd or inconsistant results some time on etc.
3) the contact points can be dirty and there is micro welding at the contact points happening due to arcing in the gap before points close so that on release that tiny weld has to be broken by The strength of the return spring = holding relay open longer after switch/lever is released.

Yes a relay can be energized on start up and when you flick the switch (press the brake lever) you break the circuit and the relay turns off... this can be a safety feature for the cruise control in case of electrical faults the cruise will be canceled - i dont know if this is how it work on the S10.

I dont like always on or energised mechanical relays.... they consume energy, generate heat and unless they are built twice as big as normal relays would not last as long. I would assume an electronic relay would be used in this case.

 

[mebgardner]

I would assume an electronic relay would be used in this case.

Sadly, this is a bad assumption in this case.

 

[mebgardner]

Either way, I saw it as a safety hazard and replaced the brake light relay and front brake switch at the same time with new OEM parts.

OK, understood. Thank You!

 

[mebgardner]

Garry:

So, although you and I have the same symptoms overall, I do note we are investigating different systems.

I'm focused on the BLC, and you're focused on the CCC.

I've previously stated the two system interact, and I still believe that, but I am not so sure about the electrical interaction. Said a different way, they may be mechanically linked via common assemblies (two switches per side) on the handlebar, but not electrically linked (NTSB / USDOT might insist on that, I don't know).

Anyway, I investigated the BLC because I heard a relay chatter, and I saw anomalous brake light behavior. A faulty switch discovered and then 2+2 equals me replacing a switch assembly and awaiting further debugging after the new part is inserted (I do not have it yet). I will likely open the relay and look at it, if I can get it open without damage (I've done this before to different various machines, not this one).

You, on the other hand, (I think) have no relay to hear chatter in response to *what might be* a faulty switch in either handlebar lever. That is, there are two switches, one on either side, that are "in" the CC circuit, I think in series. Either of those *could* exhibit the same type of failure mode I'm seeing with the BLC, but they *could* be failing "silently". There's no direct correlation, because there no external "noise" from a relay.

So, my .02 for those of us experiencing CCC issues, with (perhaps) no related BLC issues. To those folks (and you, Garry), I suggest you look at the handlebar switches, both sides, with a VOM.

 

[mebgardner]

From the description of the issues mentioned here, it seems to be chatter due to the multiple oscillations observed. Maybe a 220 or 330uF Capacitor placed in parallel to the actuation pins may help the under powered condition. Just thinking .....

You should have heard the *uproar* when I suggested that sort of fix to an aircraft safety critical computer system, on the power IO. Oh Boy, you'd think I lit the world on fire!

It's a good suggestion, I'm mullin' it. I don't normally like to change OEM systems in that manner.

 

[gv550]

I dusted off my analog VOM, this is an old unit that I built from a kit in high school electric class, 47 years ago! I mention this because it's quality, accuracy and reliability are obviously suspect so keep that in mind as I report my findings.
My brake switch assembly is mounted on the handlebar and I'm activating it by pulling and releasing the front brake lever.
I unplugged the brake switch harness and my VOM probes are inserted into the terminal end of the harness. VOM scale set at Rx10, and the needle swings from infinity to zero when I touch the probes.
Testing the cruise switch, probes in the yellow/black and yellow/white wire terminals. The switch is normally closed. As I move the brake lever back and forth I can hear the micro-switch click on and off, and my needle swings freely and uninterrupted between zero and infinity. I repeated this dozens of times, moving the lever quickly and slowly, no fault found.
Testing the brake light switch, probes in the green/white and green/yellow wire terminals. The switch is normally closed but I noticed the needle didn't zero, stayed at 9 ohms. I touched the probes together and the needle zeroed so there is obviously resistance across this switch when closed. As I move the brake lever back and forth quickly the needle swings freely between 9 and infinity, but when moving the lever slowly the needle would bounce a couple times on its way down to 9. Moving the lever very slowly I could stop the needle at varying resistances between 9 and infinity, almost as if it were a potentiometer. This should confirm a faulty switch.
But.... if it is faulty I don't understand how this would set code 90, as all this weird brake light switch behavior is happening after the cruise switch is open.
Another observation..... I removed the brake light relay just to check the connections, it and the harness are fitted inside a holder to mount it to the bike, the holder has plastic clips to hold the relay and harness in place. All four plastic clips broke off when I tried to spring them open, I'm wondering if this assembly has been overheated to the point of making the plastic brittle.
I welcome comments. ;D

 

[mebgardner]

I dusted off my analog VOM, this is an old unit that I built from a kit in high school electric class, 47 years ago! I mention this because it's quality, accuracy and reliability are obviously suspect so keep that in mind as I report my findings.
My brake switch assembly is mounted on the handlebar and I'm activating it by pulling and releasing the front brake lever.
I unplugged the brake switch harness and my VOM probes are inserted into the terminal end of the harness. VOM scale set at Rx10, and the needle swings from infinity to zero when I touch the probes.
Testing the cruise switch, probes in the yellow/black and yellow/white wire terminals. The switch is normally closed. As I move the brake lever back and forth I can hear the micro-switch click on and off, and my needle swings freely and uninterrupted between zero and infinity. I repeated this dozens of times, moving the lever quickly and slowly, no fault found.
Testing the brake light switch, probes in the green/white and green/yellow wire terminals. The switch is normally closed but I noticed the needle didn't zero, stayed at 9 ohms. I touched the probes together and the needle zeroed so there is obviously resistance across this switch when closed. As I move the brake lever back and forth quickly the needle swings freely between 9 and infinity, but when moving the lever slowly the needle would bounce a couple times on its way down to 9. Moving the lever very slowly I could stop the needle at varying resistances between 9 and infinity, almost as if it were a potentiometer. This should confirm a faulty switch.
But.... if it is faulty I don't understand how this would set code 90, as all this weird brake light switch behavior is happening after the cruise switch is open.
Another observation..... I removed the brake light relay just to check the connections, it and the harness are fitted inside a holder to mount it to the bike, the holder has plastic clips to hold the relay and harness in place. All four plastic clips broke off when I tried to spring them open, I'm wondering if this assembly has been overheated to the point of making the plastic brittle.
I welcome comments. ;D

Garry:

I'm pretty certain your brake switch is done. You'll buy the entire assembly, it's not possible to get just a switch. Oh Well.

The 9 ohm impedance, that's curious but definitely bad. Remember, we're looking for "weak" paths to the relay, and that's weak (offers less current to the energized relay path).

Brittle plastic huh? OK. So, the relay is out of the cycle. When you open it, you're looking for putting the energizer path (the coil) across a fair battery. I say "fair", because you don't really want to test with a new, great battery. You're looking for a weak pull when energized with just an "OK" battery, looking for a reason for it to chatter. If it does not pull "clean", then you found that too.

But, really, I think you've found your problem in the switch.

Brittle plastic: signs of overheating... from an "always on / energized" relay.

Not Good, Gentlemen.

 

[2daMax]

You should have heard the *uproar* when I suggested that sort of fix to an aircraft safety critical computer system, on the power IO. Oh Boy, you'd think I lit the world on fire!

It's a good suggestion, I'm mullin' it. I don't normally like to change OEM systems in that manner.

It's kind of reminded of something on my ex Versys. I installed a analogue Coolant temperature gauge and found that at idling, the needle fluctuates, possibly due to the R&R not giving out a good DC power. I placed a 330uF capacitor (didn't do a calculation, just what I had) across the terminals of the Gauge and viola......the needle stopped fluctuating.

OK, now that I recall that the R&R is not giving a clean DC source, there are still some ripples in there in the power source, so perhaps this is causing the chatter in the relays? My observations (on the Versys) is that at idling RPM, the ripple effect is greater than when it is above the idling. If the issue occurs mostly when the Revs are low, then this could be a potential source of the problem. (And the fix is some Capacitor in the circuit in parallel).

Wish I have a Gen 2 to test out the theory.

On another note, for the heck of it, I have 4X 22,000uF Capacitors placed in parallel to the battery on the S10. Better throttle response. From a better DC-like source, perhaps? I dunno but I'll take better.