CycleWorld comparo Feb issue ... FYI

[Tremor38]

Re: Re: CycleWorld comparo Feb issue ... FYI

Cycle World has long been the fluffy, short-sweet sort of mag. I remember talking to David Edwards a long time ago when Cycle was disbanded (by the same publishers as CW).... he said the publishers had no interest in having CW print long, in-depth articles like Cycle used to run. Since then, things have gotten more and more abbreviated, to the point they don't even do individual road-tests much anymore; mostly they do the 2x2, 3x3, 4x4 etc. mini-comparison tests. Breadth, not depth, has been the mantra at CW for some time.

That's why I would take CW's pronouncement that the S10 is the best in the dirt and the GS the best on the street with a grain of salt as it runs 180-deg to what three or four other publications have said. In reality, they're probably about the same with strengths and weaknesses that, depending on any particularly rider's proclivities, tilt the final judgment one way or the other.

If you want in-depth, then you get the British mags, but they have their drawbacks too. I read CW mostly for the fine photography.

- Mark

You are completely ignoring the aspect that Cycle World used testers that have serious dirt credentials, and this wasn't their first exposure to the S10. Then, you mention tarmac biased British rags as somehow being more objective. Never mind that the Cycle World review mirrors what almost any ex GS rider who now rides a tenere says about how they compare in the dirt...and Ryan Dudek obviously is clueless.

But let's just broadsword in passing judgement because it's CW.

 

[markjenn]

Re: Re: CycleWorld comparo Feb issue ... FYI

You are completely ignoring the aspect that Cycle World used testers that have serious dirt credentials, and this wasn't their first exposure to the S10. Then, you mention tarmac biased British rags as somehow being more objective.

Don't misquote me to make your point. I mentioned the british mags in passing only to say that they did more in-depth analysis and have huge page counts compared to CW and said nothing about whether they liked/dislked the S10 on the street or in the dirt. I honestly don't know what the British mags have said about the dirt prowess of the S10. I made no comment whatsoever about whether they were more "objective".

The other two comprehensive comparison tests that have involved the the GS and S10 were the MCN test and the Motorcycle USA shootout. In both of these tests, they said the GS is the better dirt bike and the S10 the better street bike.

Mostly I see people discounting tests that don't fit their preconceptions and accepting tests that do.

- Mark

 

[tc9988]

Re: Re: CycleWorld comparo Feb issue ... FYI

Don't misquote me to make your point. I mentioned the british mags in passing only to say that they did more in-depth analysis and have huge page counts compared to CW and said nothing about whether they liked/dislked the S10 on the street or in the dirt. I honestly don't know what the British mags have said about the dirt prowess of the S10. I made no comment whatsoever about whether they were more "objective".

The other two comprehensive comparison tests that have involved the the GS and S10 were the MCN test and the Motorcycle USA shootout. In both of these tests, they said the GS is the better dirt bike and the S10 the better street bike.

Mostly I see people discounting tests that don't fit their preconceptions and accepting tests that do.

- Mark

Isn't MCN a british mag :question:

 

[markjenn]

Re: Re: CycleWorld comparo Feb issue ... FYI

Isn't MCN a british mag :question:

There may be a point of confusion here. I was referring to "Motorcycle Consumer News" - the USA based, no advertising, Consumer Reports style magazine with David Searle as the editor. However, there is a British publication called "Motorcycle News" that has both web and print versions that is sometimes called MCN. They're big deal is publishing very early web video eports of new bikes and news "scoops" about new models, which mostly turn out wrong. The only British bike magazine I read fairly regularly is "Bike" which is pretty good, although like most the British bike publications, a bit eccentric. Bike puts more in a single issue than CW publishes in half a year.

- Mark

 

[tc9988]

Re: Re: CycleWorld comparo Feb issue ... FYI

There may be a point of confusion here. I was referring to "Motorcycle Consumer News" - the USA based, no advertising, Consumer Reports style magazine with David Searle as the editor. However, there is a British publication called "Motorcycle News" that has both web and print versions that is sometimes called MCN. They're big deal is publishing very early web video eports of new bikes and news "scoops" about new models, which mostly turn out wrong. The only British bike magazine I read fairly regularly is "Bike" which is pretty good, although like most the British bike publications, a bit eccentric. Bike puts more in a single issue than CW publishes in half a year.

- Mark

ahh, Motorcycle Consumer News, ::008::

 

[markjenn]

Re: Re: CycleWorld comparo Feb issue ... FYI

ahh, Motorcycle Consumer News, ::008::

My apologies for the confusion.

- Mark

 

[GrahamD]

Re: Re: CycleWorld comparo Feb issue ... FYI

Isn't MCN a british mag :question:

Give Mark a break. The man has some taste.

Seriously though, I have yet to see MCN do anything much apart from a few lanes and back roads.
On the other hand, that kind of riding may be an appropriate test for the general populace over there, I don't know.

It's just a highly limited test set for what I would be looking for. I am never going to be a Ryan Dudeck but at least I want to know how the bike performs in nasty situations, if I find myself actually finding I can do it on this bike.

 

[protondecay123]

I was a little suspect of the Motorcycle USA review. They actually rated the Multistrada better in the dirt than the SuperTen as well. I've got a buddy in Kentucky with one and he says that it's difficult to stand up on the pegs because of the handlebars. I don't know if its better or not, but these reviews hold little similarity in comparison to purchasing and living with a bike for years. MCN (USA) is one of two bike magazines that I subscribe. The other is Roadrunner. I did have a subscription to Bike and enjoyed the magazine in general. The type of riding there is more street based and they have a very different selection of models, so I let it lapse.

 

[mcook]

You guys might be interested to know that we have similar discussions all the time. As in how can XXX magazine/website say YYY bike is better than ZZZ?

What we did, and I hope I articulated well in the story, was put these bikes to much more of a dirt test than is probably warranted based on how the bikes really get used. From what I've read here, this group is unusual in its use of the Super T, but the market research I see (and discussions I've had with people like Jim Hyde from RawHyde Adventures) says that only a small percentage of any adventure model ever goes off road. But the street/touring aspects are relatively easy to learn. It's the serious off-road use that really separates and helps define these bikes. We also have the advantage of constantly swapping bikes among the three riders so we can all try the same roads/trails on the same day; and all of us have different degrees of off-road prowess from Dudek (a god) to me (a clod). Before the group ride, I put 500-800 miles on each of the bikes, concentrating on the Super T and the KTM, as I already have a ton of GS seat time. By the time we got to the dirt, we all had a pretty good idea of how the bikes worked on road, including a day riding a combination of fast, smooth roads and barely paved "roads." This is a long-winded way of saying that despite the brevity of the printed story, there was a lot of testing time put into the effort.

As for the "cutting room floor" idea, it's something we've begun to do in bits and pieces. I also did a Yamaha FZ8 project bike that had to be crammed into 3 pages. We're posting that story to the web this week, and I took the opportunity to expand the story a bit and fill in some of the details (particularly of the luggage) that had to be left out to make the whole thing fit. Unfortunately, as a contributing editor (read: freelancer) who gets paid by the printed page, I have to be careful about giving away too much work!

Marc

 

[GrahamD]

Hey Marc,
Just a bit of customer feedback.

I hope you make a bit from that Zinio mob, because you got a sale that you wouldn't have normally had it only been a dead tree version. ::008::

Glad it was available online. In Australia it's hard to find and requires many hours of stuffing around just to find a copy.

I liked it, I'll buy again. Keep up the proper tests applicable to the bikes and comments on the pro and cons.

I'm not really a win/loose kind of guy as each bike has it's own strengths and weaknesses, especially in the ADV segment.
I look for evaluation on specifics of the bikes. That does require more than a page but I find it commendable that you take people along with great expertise in the area of interest.

A range of nad sizes is a good thing on a test. That way I can get an idea where I slot in to the picture at least.

Cheers
Graham

 

[markjenn]

What we did, and I hope I articulated well in the story, was put these bikes to much more of a dirt test than is probably warranted based on how the bikes really get used. From what I've read here, this group is unusual in its use of the Super T, but the market research I see (and discussions I've had with people like Jim Hyde from RawHyde Adventures) says that only a small percentage of any adventure model ever goes off road. But the street/touring aspects are relatively easy to learn. It's the serious off-road use that really separates and helps define these bikes. We also have the advantage of constantly swapping bikes among the three riders so we can all try the same roads/trails on the same day; and all of us have different degrees of off-road prowess from Dudek (a god) to me (a clod). Before the group ride, I put 500-800 miles on each of the bikes, concentrating on the Super T and the KTM, as I already have a ton of GS seat time. By the time we got to the dirt, we all had a pretty good idea of how the bikes worked on road, including a day riding a combination of fast, smooth roads and barely paved "roads." This is a long-winded way of saying that despite the brevity of the printed story, there was a lot of testing time put into the effort.

Appreciate your giving us these "behind the scenes" comments Marc. It really helps put things in prespective. I agree with your comments about the bike's usage patterns. In the end, what these bikes are about is all-around versatility and the ability to span the widest range of terrain and rider skills. Absolute performance in the corners of the envelope, either street or dirt, is not that important. It's not what these bikes are about.

I find the GS vs. S10 comparisons fascinating because we have two bikes designed to almost identical requirements with extremely similar spec, but with completely different technical approaches to meeting that spec (tlelever vs. fork, horizontal/longitudinal flat twin vs. upright/transverse parallel twin, air-cooled vs. liquid-cooled, single-sided swingarm with paralever vs. two-sided swingarm without paralever, belt-drive dry alternator vs. wet stator, etc.). It's like the bikes are designed on different planets. It's not surprising that different reviewers are coming to different conclusions.

One conclusion that is consistent across reviewers is that both bikes are simply fantastic machines.

- Mark

 

[20valves]

Great input Marc. I think the off-road skills are also what define and divide the owner group here as well. I thought the test was a good read and a fair assessment, the accompanying video and the very useful side bar stories were great additions. I think we all WANT to go off road, some of us are just a little further along that curve than others. I did appreciate the fact that the bikes were put on the same tires in the CW test since tires make a large difference in the off road performance of the bikes.

Anyway, good info in there and I'm still excited to play with my new super matches, even if it's not life or death in the middle of nowhere.

 

[kgfire]

Marc, I thought the review was right on, mainly because I've owned all three of the bikes tested, just not all at once! The video of the bikes in action offroad was amazing because what you guys did with them is WAY beyond what most riders will ever do. It's great to know that in the right hands these things can do some pretty amazing things.

 

[protondecay123]

Did enjoy the multimedia aspect of the review. The Feb issue of Cycle World is the first issue of that magazine that I've purchased in a decade. The other "adventure" articles were good as well. I was pleasantly surprised and that issue was above my expectations.

 

[houndman]

When I recieved the Cycle World issue and read what it had to say about the ST, there was one in my garage the next day,(just 3 days ago) I traded a Harley and a KTM 530 for it, so far it is a pleasure to ride on the street, and I am basically a beginner on dirt still but there is now no road I cant go on right from my garage. That article was the deal breaker for me. I hope I am right. Malcolm Smith was brought up a few times during this thread, from a letter he wrote Cycle World, I have been in his shop in Riverside, Ca. on a regular basis and there he usually is, working the store! That guy is as humble as can be, he walks like beat up old man, but gets on a dirt bike and participates all the time in the sport, wether at charity rides or races, or just play riding, I saw him with a blue 4 wheel drive pick up at an intersection one day, I was right next to him, he had a KTM 400 in the back with ramps and all the usual stuff that any one has. I asked him how the riding was, he said "the dirt was really good,you should get out and see for your self". It was after a good rain. Man that dude rode with Steve McQueen! Is a pioneer in the American offroad world. I have no excuses now as a 42 year old guy seeing Malcolm still beat practically anyone around. Time to ride man!

 

[protondecay123]

When I recieved the Cycle World issue and read what it had to say about the ST, there was one in my garage the next day,(just 3 days ago) I traded a Harley and a KTM 530 for it, so far it is a pleasure to ride on the street, and I am basically a beginner on dirt still but there is now no road I cant go on right from my garage. That article was the deal breaker for me. I hope I am right. Malcolm Smith was brought up a few times during this thread, from a letter he wrote Cycle World, I have been in his shop in Riverside, Ca. on a regular basis and there he usually is, working the store! That guy is as humble as can be, he walks like beat up old man, but gets on a dirt bike and participates all the time in the sport, wether at charity rides or races, or just play riding, I saw him with a blue 4 wheel drive pick up at an intersection one day, I was right next to him, he had a KTM 400 in the back with ramps and all the usual stuff that any one has. I asked him how the riding was, he said "the dirt was really good,you should get out and see for your self". It was after a good rain. Man that dude rode with Steve McQueen! Is a pioneer in the American offroad world. I have no excuses now as a 42 year old guy seeing Malcolm still beat practically anyone around. Time to ride man!

I hope that you are as happy as I am with the bike. ::026::

 

[Tremor38]

I found the very honest off-road evaluations refreshing. Instead of slurping on the the BMW emblem with adjectives like 'legendary' and 'Proven swingarm.' No pre-conceived notions there. They called it as it was..front end pogo-sticking around off-road enough to where riding aggressively took an 'incredible leap of faith.' The Beemers engine was rated as best of the bunch which is no surprise and I agree with that...as long as the power restriction is not removed from the S10 ECU. > The quicker steering BMW also probably feel a bit more sport bike-like.

KTM? What can you say? Neither the S10 nor BMW can touch it off-road, but I also agree that the S10 is more dirt worthy than the Beemer.