Yamaha - YES Failure to Stand By the Product - Carbon Bildup Excuse

[Oliv]

On the french forum it has been made clear that driving systematically at low revs has to be avoided as this lead to carbon build up and valve blocking.
The recommendation is to run above 4k revs to avoid any issue or at least to drive from time to time above 4k during approximately 10km so as to "clean" then engine.
Running always at 2 to 3k revs leads to carbon issues with the valves.

 

[OldRider]

On the french forum it has been made clear that driving systematically at low revs has to be avoided as this lead to carbon build up and valve blocking.
The recommendation is to run above 4k revs to avoid any issue or at least to drive from time to time above 4k during approximately 10km so as to "clean" then engine.
Running always at 2 to 3k revs leads to carbon issues with the valves.

So that's what Grandpa was doing when he opened up the old Ford farm truck and said he was going to blow it out. !!!!

 

[amoller]

On the french forum it has been made clear that driving systematically at low revs has to be avoided as this lead to carbon build up and valve blocking.
The recommendation is to run above 4k revs to avoid any issue or at least to drive from time to time above 4k during approximately 10km so as to "clean" then engine.
Running always at 2 to 3k revs leads to carbon issues with the valves.

I can tell you that I have always liked to rev up the engine ... Still, at 70 MPH, the engine is around 3.5K... The reasoning implies that this would be a "speeding ticket" festival while riding on US highways should a rider be concerned about the engine staying above 4K. Or, never use 6th gear.

Still having as hard time accepting, in my view, this failure... Should not happen, I should not have to carry Ring Free on my tank bag, which is something not recommended on the owners manual and, as per the owner's manual, 37MPH on 6th gear is acceptable, I dont know even know at what RPM the engine will be but for sure around 2K....

 

[tomatocity]

I can tell you that I have always liked to rev up the engine ... Still, at 70 MPH, the engine is around 3.5K... The reasoning implies that this would be a "speeding ticket" festival while riding on US highways should a rider be concerned about the engine staying above 4K. Or, never use 6th gear.

Still having as hard time accepting, in my view, this failure... Should not happen, I should not have to carry Ring Free on my tank bag, which is something not recommended on the owners manual and, as per the owner's manual, 37MPH on 6th gear is acceptable, I dont know even know at what RPM the engine will be but for sure around 2K....

Agree !!!

 

[taskmaster86]

I can tell you that I have always liked to rev up the engine ... Still, at 70 MPH, the engine is around 3.5K... The reasoning implies that this would be a "speeding ticket" festival while riding on US highways should a rider be concerned about the engine staying above 4K. Or, never use 6th gear.

Still having as hard time accepting, in my view, this failure... Should not happen, I should not have to carry Ring Free on my tank bag, which is something not recommended on the owners manual and, as per the owner's manual, 37MPH on 6th gear is acceptable, I dont know even know at what RPM the engine will be but for sure around 2K....

::026::

I run a constant dose of TCW-3 in every vehicle I own, including my S-10. It greatly reduces carbon/soot build up and keeps everything clean and lubed as proven in my and many others testing. Using an occasional fuel system cleaner like techron or gumout may have prevented this problem also.

I will make sure to scope out my cylinder and keep an eye on things the next time I have my air filter out.

 

[greg the pole]

read the whole thread.

Shitty to read that Yamaha dicks people around with the YES coverage.
I imported my 2011 from Montana, so I had the bare bones 1 yr warranty.

5 yrs, and 75 (hard) k km later, the bike has been near faultless.

That said, I've been a cheapskate and pumped mostly crap 87 or 89 octane that has ethanol in it.
The bike is currently using half a liter of oil every 2500 km (Oil light comes on when cold right around 2500 km after oil change). Add half a liter, and i'm good for another 2500km.
I've been told the bike puffs blue under say a wheelie ::013:: but does not burn it under heavy acceleration.

So having said the above, and the issues that the others had (Tim, Original poster, EricV) what could it be?

The bike pulls like a freight train (Full arrow exhaust, AC flash, CO is at errmmm...I forgot, but want to say 6) no PC or anything like that, OEM filters, and I'm anal about valves and maintenance (See my blog shamless plug here : https://thetenerist.wordpress.com/category/tenere/
And no I don't ride the bike at 1000 rpm...

I did try the shock treatment with the ring free, but noticed little difference. I have been running 92 octane (free of ethanol) for the last two k.

I was going to keep an eye on the oil consumption, if it got really shitty I was going to pull the head and do the following:

2014 head. Figured its marginally better, and I don't have to fix anything on the original head
new valves seals, springs, guides...the lot
new pistons and ring
new cam chain
2014 CCT (Maybe) as I have a manual CCT in it now
all new gaskets...OBVS!

Thoughts? Keep in mind that I'm a shade tree mechanic, so the above might very well be well out to lunch

 

[tomatocity]

Greg, looking forward to what you decide to do. Have you checked the stem side of the intake valves for carbon build-up? You did say you were riding the FJ-09 to California

 

[Kabish]

Really confused on how the manual can say 37mph in 6th and then they turn around and say "whelp sorry, you had the revs too low".... I'd almost bet that someone with money could take that one to court. If you are running your bike at manufactures specs and that causes failure then how would that not be covered...

With that said I ride my S10 like a grandpaw on a Sunday night stroll in his convertible with the top down. I used to hold onto 3rd gear longer in the rev range (around 4k RPMs) until I started to get 36MPG on gas... I changed that and putt around in 4th gear at around 2.5 RPMs (35ish mph) and my MPGs went back closer to 40MPG.. I dunno how some of you get constant 45+MPG to a tank... I'd kill to get that good of gas millage. Over 16 fill ups I'm getting a average of 40.006MPG with my lowest being 36.770MPG... I only have 2500 miles on her though which I've read MPG gets better as I get more miles.

 

[tomatocity]

The YES rep had said no to me then I dropped the 'shifting speeds' is on him and he agreed to the disassembly costs. After that the dealership reported that the cause was of the damage was the CCT. Complete rebuild from the crank up and the head sent to a local machine shop. Zero dollars to me... accept for the Clutch Basket.

What it comes down to is the dealership. Sounds like a dealership is trying to make some money.

 

[greg the pole]

Greg, looking forward to what you decide to do. Have you checked the stem side of the intake valves for carbon build-up? You did say you were riding the FJ-09 to California

I have not taken the air box and TBs off in a while. Only do it to do the valves.
California is on hold for August. My buddy is still going. I'm hoping to make it down by end of september on the FJ

 

[tomatocity]

I have not taken the air box and TBs off in a while. Only do it to do the valves.
California is on hold for August. My buddy is still going. I'm hoping to make it down by end of september on the FJ

Can you see the stem side of the intake valves by opening the TB butterflies?

Bummer on your August CA Trip but September might be better (cooler) weather.

I am headed to the Eastern Sierra to tour the Owen's Valley Radio Observatory on Monday. The high temp will be 103ish. After the tour I am headed to the Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest Visitor Center at 10,000 ft el, as in cool weather.

 

[Rasher]

Interesting if low rpm's do cause carbon buildup, especially when this is in theory in the piss weak closed loop area, would have thought running in this lean condition alone would mean not enough fuel going in to allow buildup.

Agree that running above 4k all the time is not an option for most, in all of Europe this is more than a little above the national speed limit (excluding motorways) and most countries the speed limit is between 56 and 62mph - i.e. under 3500rpm.

I would also have expected carbon build-up to have to be extremely excessive before it caused enough damage to stop a bike running reasonably well :question:

 

[Kurgan]

I am under the belief that raising the CO setting enriches the fuel mix. Too rich a mix can cause carbon to build up in any engine.
Earlier in this forum, a member posted that his dealer sync'd his throttle bodies and raised his CO to 6 to eliminate a lean stumble.
I believe I read where others have tried 10, 20, 30 settings. Not sure what their out come was but it's conceivable it could cause a carbon problem. YMMV.

Absolutely spot on, it's easy to cause problems when individual owners (and some dealers) start playing with fuel mixture settings "randomly". Does Yamaha have a driveability TSB telling dealers to raise it to a certain level? If not, it's 100% guess work unless the bike has been tested with a dyno that has an exhaust gas analyzer to establish a baseline number and then see what happens with small changes.

What is the S10 CO level as delivered? Raising it to 6 appears pretty aggressive (I recall a few bikes I owned that the sweet spot was 3.0 - 3.5, stock being 1.5). Individuals randomly trying 10, 20, 30 seems really out of the ballpark.

 

[greg the pole]

Can you see the stem side of the intake valves by opening the TB butterflies?

Bummer on your August CA Trip but September might be better (cooler) weather.

I am headed to the Eastern Sierra to tour the Owen's Valley Radio Observatory on Monday. The high temp will be 103ish. After the tour I am headed to the Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest Visitor Center at 10,000 ft el, as in cool weather.

meh...I'm busy in the summer (read: Lazy )
I might have a peek at the valves this winter...if I nudge 80km. Might be a good time to do the valve check.

Not overly worried about the trip. It's complicated at work. Last bits of work left, and then I'm out to pasture.
Might sneak away for a few days on the Fudge9 to BC...the coast is calling

 

[silvergoose]

::009:: This tale of pain continues to chew over the YES failure.

As I have said before I donot have a dog in the fight, but I must ask a few questions.

Amoller, bought the bike with 16K miles and in good shape, service done on a regular basis.

The OP started his bike and it ran for a few seconds and stopped with a "metal to metal" sound. no mention of more attempts at starting the bike, as I recall.

First thought CCT, if so it is covered by YES.

The bike is taken to the dealer for an exam. Yes rep called results excessive carbon buildup, not a Yamaha problem.
Yamaha agrees to pay for parts labor will be owner's headache.

OP states the bike ran great on a recent 4500 mile trip with 1041 miles covered in 19 hours.

Bike shop reports says the valves froze. valves bent, photos show carbon buildup on piston tops.
The carbon on the piston top appears to me as oil residue.

After some time passes and the level of frustration the OP calls Yamaha and is told the dealer has not filed a warranty request.

The next time I read the post the work is done the bill is paid. At the bottom of the work order the compression and leak down results are listed: Low compression #1 around 50 PSI leak down tests show a loss of 80% of the pressure. Yes, I realize these numbers are before any work is done. That brings me to this point: I understand the findings of low compression/leak down tests, what baffles me is that the Dealer said the valves were bent, then they are not, but the valves needed to be and were lapped. It is my understanding that the valves were frozen, read as damage to the valve guides/valve stem, but no further mention of the valve train damage. Next the valves were bent how, where and where are the damaged parts. I understand if Yamaha paid for the parts, the parts must be returned to Yamaha, but the OP said no warranty claim had been filed. No photo showing the position of the timing chain has been presented, remember the note of bent valves, no apparent photos of valves striking the piston top(s).

Then we are told that the OP has changed the CO settings, why?

This outline has more twists and turns than the BRP.

So far it appears to me that the YES program is clear and that the OP bears some responsibility for the damage,IMO.

 

[Kevhunts]

Something is rotten in Denmark! .....Sorry Denmark!

 

[Bryce]

::009:: This tale of pain continues to chew over the YES failure.

As I have said before I donot have a dog in the fight, but I must ask a few questions.

Amoller, bought the bike with 16K miles and in good shape, service done on a regular basis.

The OP started his bike and it ran for a few seconds and stopped with a "metal to metal" sound. no mention of more attempts at starting the bike, as I recall.

First thought CCT, if so it is covered by YES.

The bike is taken to the dealer for an exam. Yes rep called results excessive carbon buildup, not a Yamaha problem.
Yamaha agrees to pay for parts labor will be owner's headache.

OP states the bike ran great on a recent 4500 mile trip with 1041 miles covered in 19 hours.

Bike shop reports says the valves froze. valves bent, photos show carbon buildup on piston tops.
The carbon on the piston top appears to me as oil residue.

After some time passes and the level of frustration the OP calls Yamaha and is told the dealer has not filed a warranty request.

The next time I read the post the work is done the bill is paid. At the bottom of the work order the compression and leak down results are listed: Low compression #1 around 50 PSI leak down tests show a loss of 80% of the pressure. Yes, I realize these numbers are before any work is done. That brings me to this point: I understand the findings of low compression/leak down tests, what baffles me is that the Dealer said the valves were bent, then they are not, but the valves needed to be and were lapped. It is my understanding that the valves were frozen, read as damage to the valve guides/valve stem, but no further mention of the valve train damage. Next the valves were bent how, where and where are the damaged parts. I understand if Yamaha paid for the parts, the parts must be returned to Yamaha, but the OP said no warranty claim had been filed. No photo showing the position of the timing chain has been presented, remember the note of bent valves, no apparent photos of valves striking the piston top(s).

Then we are told that the OP has changed the CO settings, why?

This outline has more twists and turns than the BRP.

So far it appears to me that the YES program is clear and that the OP bears some responsibility for the damage,IMO.

Andre (amoller) didn't state he had mucked with the CO, it was TomatoCity that said he had

I did but don't know what I set it to. Is carbon build-up a result of higher CO settings?

Andre and I were on that trip together (the 4000+ to TX/NM and back). nothing out of the ordinary with his bike on the trip. In fact, it was my bike with an issue.. I got a new Wate Pump (YES covered it) when we returned because of a small oil leak out of the weep home.

 

[amoller]

::009:: This tale of pain continues to chew over the YES failure.

As I have said before I donot have a dog in the fight, but I must ask a few questions.

Amoller, bought the bike with 16K miles and in good shape, service done on a regular basis.

The OP started his bike and it ran for a few seconds and stopped with a "metal to metal" sound. no mention of more attempts at starting the bike, as I recall.

First thought CCT, if so it is covered by YES.

The bike is taken to the dealer for an exam. Yes rep called results excessive carbon buildup, not a Yamaha problem.
Yamaha agrees to pay for parts labor will be owner's headache.

OP states the bike ran great on a recent 4500 mile trip with 1041 miles covered in 19 hours.

Bike shop reports says the valves froze. valves bent, photos show carbon buildup on piston tops.
The carbon on the piston top appears to me as oil residue.

After some time passes and the level of frustration the OP calls Yamaha and is told the dealer has not filed a warranty request.

The next time I read the post the work is done the bill is paid. At the bottom of the work order the compression and leak down results are listed: Low compression #1 around 50 PSI leak down tests show a loss of 80% of the pressure. Yes, I realize these numbers are before any work is done. That brings me to this point: I understand the findings of low compression/leak down tests, what baffles me is that the Dealer said the valves were bent, then they are not, but the valves needed to be and were lapped. It is my understanding that the valves were frozen, read as damage to the valve guides/valve stem, but no further mention of the valve train damage. Next the valves were bent how, where and where are the damaged parts. I understand if Yamaha paid for the parts, the parts must be returned to Yamaha, but the OP said no warranty claim had been filed. No photo showing the position of the timing chain has been presented, remember the note of bent valves, no apparent photos of valves striking the piston top(s).

Then we are told that the OP has changed the CO settings, why?

This outline has more twists and turns than the BRP.

So far it appears to me that the YES program is clear and that the OP bears some responsibility for the damage,IMO.

Do you work fgor Yamaha ? It appears to be the case... Sorry for the sarcasam but please read my comments before you make uninformed remarks

 

[Tenman]

That is a sad story. If this had happened to me. You would never see me on a s10 again. Sounds like your dealer gave you the shaft to me. Maybe because you were too nice of a guy. It really chaps my ass to read it.

 

[amoller]

While I enjoyed and often miss the S10, I had to let it go... I am still disappointed that Yamaha did not support its product by not challenging the dealer. I strongly recomend anyone not to buy the YES product