Valve ticking on S10 anyone?

[tc9988]

There could be a myriad of reasons, but the most likely is that you may be confusing "transmission" noise with "primary" drive noise.

The BMW doesn't have a a gear-driven primary like your Yamaha. In fact, it has no primary gear at all, as the clutch mounts on the end the crankshaft in much the same way as it does in a car. Then output shaft on the clutch is the mainshaft of the transmission, driving then the gears on the countershaft.

OTOH, the Super Tenere has nothing more than a small primary gear on the end of the crankshaft. This gear drives the driven gear on the back of the clutch basket, and hence the mainshaft of the transmission, which in turn, through the various ratios in the 'box drives the countershaft.

Most people confuse "transmission" noise with what is actually "primary" noise. The primary drive noise on the Super Tenere is caused by the whirring of the straight-cut (and non-split drive) primary gears, and this noise can be considerable to someone who is used to an engine/gearbox set-up where no primary gear drive exists - like on you BMW.

I hope this helps, but if not some simple Google searching of engines and gearboxes disassembled will quickly let you see the fundamental differences I'm talking about. Look, this is all pretty basic and simple "Motorcycle Mechanics 101" stuff, and these days folks are lucky. There is tons and tons of resources out there on the internet that you can access to learn about these simple bits and pieces of motorcycling. Back when I was learning the wrenching trade, decades ago, we had nothing but books, service manuals, etc.... That and I torn down a lot of different engines over the years. These days you can sometimes learn things in literally minutes that took us months to grasp "back in the day."

Dallara





~

I had considerably more noise from my primary than the dozen or so other ST's I listened to. There was also a chirping noise after engaging the clutch taking off in first gear. My clutch basket was changed under warranty. Still noisy at idle but the chirp is gone.

5th and 6th gear have a loud whine. I can hear it with a full face helmet and ear plugs.

The air cooled BMW engine is quieter and so is the transmission. That's just my observation. I have no interest in getting into a discussion about which motorcycle is better but I will say my 1150GS has 85000 trouble free miles. 70000 were put on by me and I have done nothing but change the fluids, replace the alternator belt , adjust the valves and change tires.

The harley davidson electra glide 6 speed transmission has a straight cut first gear and the rest are helical cut. Until I think 2010 5th gear was still straight cut and changed after customers complained about gear whine.n

 

[Dallara]

I had considerably more noise from my primary than the dozen or so other ST's I listened to. There was also a chirping noise after engaging the clutch taking off in first gear. My clutch basket was changed under warranty. Still noisy at idle but the chirp is gone.

5th and 6th gear have a loud whine. I can hear it with a full face helmet and ear plugs.

The air cooled BMW engine is quieter and so is the transmission. That's just my observation. I have no interest in getting into a discussion about which motorcycle is better but I will say my 1150GS has 85000 trouble free miles. 70000 were put on by me and I have done nothing but change the fluids, replace the alternator belt , adjust the valves and change tires.

The harley davidson electra glide 6 speed transmission has a straight cut first gear and the rest are helical cut. Until I think 2010 5th gear was still straight cut and changed after customers complained about gear whine.n

As I said in a previous reply... There could be a *MYRIAD* of reasons why either one transmission is louder than the other, or that you perceive it that way. As you noted, there are often differences even between two individual examples of the exact same motorcycle model - i.e. you thought your S-10 had more gear noise than other S-10's. There are so many factors involved it's hard to pinpoint the exact reason. I was only trying to offer up what could be one of the more obvious reason.

Geared primary drives are usually the biggest contributors of noise on a lot of today's modern motorcycles. Much more so that the individual gearsets inside the gearbox. That's one reason you see split-gears on primaries as well as helical-cut gears, even when the gearsets in the gearbox are all straight-cut.

Yes, the later H-D's have helical gearsets, but they also have sliding dog-rings. The gearsets may be quieter, but the gearboxes have a higher parts count, are more complex, and are not as narrow as they could be if they were straight-cut gearsets. They are also heavier than they could be, and there is still the issue of varying side-thrust and power loss (straight-cut gears are more efficient than helical-cut gears). And as I also mentioned, gear lever effort and throw (travel) usually are greater with helical gearsets with sliding dog-rings. Needless to say, lightweight has never been a priority with H-D, nor minimal parts count, nor power loss, nor shift lever travel and effort, etc., etc. However, getting all they can in the engine quiet is... Why? Because numerous regulatory agencies worldwide have noise limits on motorcycles now, and it's very hard to make an air-cooled engine quiet enough to pass those noise regs because of fin-ringing, especially with an H-D and its upright cylinder jugs...

And before you say I'm Harley bashing remember that I currently own one, and love it!

Tons of other issues enter this perceived (and sometimes measured) "gear noise" issue. The thickness of the cases for instance. The Super Tenere's primary gears are behind a relatively thin cast side cover. A thin cover is more likely to resonate, and therefore "ring" a bit on its own. Being thin it also transmits more of the straight-cut primary gear whine than a thicker case cover would. Contrast the BMW with this, which uses a thicker, gearbox-only casing, loaded from the end. It's walls are thicker, and the entire case bolts up solid to the engine cases. This alone could be the difference in gear noise you perceive between the two... Or it could be a combination of that and the lack of primary gears in the BMW... Or it could be simply that your ears are more sensitive in some of the sound frequencies that the Yamaha is particularly noisy.

Actually I don't have a dog in this fight. I ride both with and without earplugs (though usually with) and I don't find the Super Tenere's noises the least bit objectionable, nor exceptionally loud. If anything I think it's quieter now with over 26,000 miles on it than it was when new. OTOH, I thought my R1150 Beemer sounded like some sort of agricultural implement, with tons of shifting *CLUNK*, etc. However, that part of the Beemer never bothered me. Motorcycles are inherently *NOISY*. They're not Lincoln Town Cars, and I probably wouldn't like 'em if they were. Even a Gold Wing is noisy compared to the cabin of my Cadillac CTS-V, but I don't ride motorcycles to seek a quiet, serene cockpit. I don't like loud exhaust systems these days, but I love the mechanical thrashing, clattering, ticking, clicking, whirring, etc. of a good motorcycle engine. Probably why the tractor-sounding engine in the Beemers didn't bother me, nor the clunking and thunking of my H-D, or the dry-clutch rattling of the Ducati's I've owned, or the ringing and dinging of the two-strokes I've owned, etc., etc. To me that's all part of the allure of a motorcycle...

I am genuinely sorry you find the noises your Super Ten makes, and that you find it objectionable compared to your BMW. I honestly hope somehow you get it cured to your satisfaction.

Remember I got into this discussion pointing out that strength had nothing to do with why Yamaha used straight-cut gears in the S-10 instead of helical-cuts. You asked me if I could tell you why I thought your Beemer tranny was quieter than your S-10's, and I offered you a possibility or two. I wasn't trying to get into a "debate" with you... Simply trying to offer a possible answer to your question.

And this in a thread about valve ticking...

Dallara




~

 

[markjenn]

The R1200GS has had a helical-gear transmission since at least the 2005 R1200GS and will continue to have one on the new bike:

Old R1200GS Gertrag tranny:

New R1200GS tranny:

- Mark

 

[Dallara]

The R1200GS has had a helical-gear transmission since at least the 2005 R1200GS and will continue to have one on the new bike:

Old R1200GS Gertrag tranny:

New R1200GS tranny:

- Mark

Didn't know that, Mark. Thanks!

My experience with BMW's, other than to ride one belonging to somebody else from time to time, stopped with the "Oilhead" 1150's.

Looking at the diagrams you posted you can clearly see how BMW is dealing with the side-thrust issue. I'm actually surprised they've gone with the helical gearsets, but maybe they had to with the air-cooled "Hexhead" 1200 to clear ever-tightening noise regs. Makes sense to keep it for the new "Water Boxer" as it will allow them latitude with noise in other areas. Besides, Getrag makes good stuff. It's not surprising they would use them to design and build that gearbox.

As for having the increased parts count and expense by using helicals - i.e. dog-rings (which they used even with straight-cut gearsets back in the "Airhead" days), etc. - well, we all know BMW has never minded their bikes being overly complex, nor excessively expensive. ::025::

Then again, BMW has always built their motorcycles with more of a car-like engine and drivetrain.

Cool diagrams. Again, my thanks!

Dallara



~

 

[tc9988]

As I said in a previous reply... There could be a *MYRIAD* of reasons why either one transmission is louder than the other, or that you perceive it that way. As you noted, there are often differences even between two individual examples of the exact same motorcycle model - i.e. you thought your S-10 had more gear noise than other S-10's. There are so many factors involved it's hard to pinpoint the exact reason. I was only trying to offer up what could be one of the more obvious reason.

Geared primary drives are usually the biggest contributors of noise on a lot of today's modern motorcycles. Much more so that the individual gearsets inside the gearbox. That's one reason you see split-gears on primaries as well as helical-cut gears, even when the gearsets in the gearbox are all straight-cut.

Yes, the later H-D's have helical gearsets, but they also have sliding dog-rings. The gearsets may be quieter, but the gearboxes have a higher parts count, are more complex, and are not as narrow as they could be if they were straight-cut gearsets. They are also heavier than they could be, and there is still the issue of varying side-thrust and power loss (straight-cut gears are more efficient than helical-cut gears). And as I also mentioned, gear lever effort and throw (travel) usually are greater with helical gearsets with sliding dog-rings. Needless to say, lightweight has never been a priority with H-D, nor minimal parts count, nor power loss, nor shift lever travel and effort, etc., etc. However, getting all they can in the engine quiet is... Why? Because numerous regulatory agencies worldwide have noise limits on motorcycles now, and it's very hard to make an air-cooled engine quiet enough to pass those noise regs because of fin-ringing, especially with an H-D and its upright cylinder jugs...

And before you say I'm Harley bashing remember that I currently own one, and love it!

Tons of other issues enter this perceived (and sometimes measured) "gear noise" issue. The thickness of the cases for instance. The Super Tenere's primary gears are behind a relatively thin cast side cover. A thin cover is more likely to resonate, and therefore "ring" a bit on its own. Being thin it also transmits more of the straight-cut primary gear whine than a thicker case cover would. Contrast the BMW with this, which uses a thicker, gearbox-only casing, loaded from the end. It's walls are thicker, and the entire case bolts up solid to the engine cases. This alone could be the difference in gear noise you perceive between the two... Or it could be a combination of that and the lack of primary gears in the BMW... Or it could be simply that your ears are more sensitive in some of the sound frequencies that the Yamaha is particularly noisy.

Actually I don't have a dog in this fight. I ride both with and without earplugs (though usually with) and I don't find the Super Tenere's noises the least bit objectionable, nor exceptionally loud. If anything I think it's quieter now with over 26,000 miles on it than it was when new. OTOH, I thought my R1150 Beemer sounded like some sort of agricultural implement, with tons of shifting *CLUNK*, etc. However, that part of the Beemer never bothered me. Motorcycles are inherently *NOISY*. They're not Lincoln Town Cars, and I probably wouldn't like 'em if they were. Even a Gold Wing is noisy compared to the cabin of my Cadillac CTS-V, but I don't ride motorcycles to seek a quiet, serene cockpit. I don't like loud exhaust systems these days, but I love the mechanical thrashing, clattering, ticking, clicking, whirring, etc. of a good motorcycle engine. Probably why the tractor-sounding engine in the Beemers didn't bother me, nor the clucking and thunking of my H-D, or the dry-clutch rattling of the Ducati's I've owned, or the ringing and dinging of the two-strokes I've owned, etc., etc. To me that's all part of the allure of a motorcycle...

I am genuinely sorry you find the noises your Super Ten makes, and that you find it objectionable compared to your BMW. I honestly hope somehow you get it cured to your satisfaction.

Remember I got into this discussion pointing out that strength had nothing to do with why Yamaha used straight-cut gears in the S-10 instead of helical-cuts. You asked me if I could tell you why I thought your Beemer tranny was quieter than your S-10's, and I offered you a possibility or two. I wasn't trying to get into a "debate" with you... Simply trying to offer a possible answer to your question.

And this in a thread about valve ticking...

Dallara






~

Thanks for the informative and useful info.

 

[RED CAT]

To steal a BMW phrase. "They all do that!" ::001::

 

[Camshft]

My 1967 Buick LeSabre - 400 4bbl ticks sometimes, then I woof on it and the tick is gone [along with some high octane additive]. My 1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer - 360 4bbl, ticks sometimes, then I woof on it and then the tick is gone. My 2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee - 5.7L Hemi ticks sometimes, then I woof on it, and the tick is gone. My 1999 Yamaha VMax ticks sometimes......then I woof on it, smile and the tick is gone. My Tenere ticks when cold, warm no tick.

Things tick.

 

[snakebitten]

Dallara,

First, you are truly a gear head. (Pun intended and as a compliment) Mechanical function must be in your DNA. It's certainly something you must have spent your life absorbing.

I learn a lot here. In just 1 thread I know more about grease than I learned in my previous 54 years.

 

[Camshft]

Me 'n' Rem tick a bit wehn we spend quality time together....

 

[NittanyXT]

So long as you don't start tocking too ;D

 

[DryRider]

I managed some boat dealerships over the years and a line we used was pretty priceless about certain noises...Get over it...it will sound like that, for the rest of your life