"Uncrashable" cornering ABS 2014 KTM 1190

[loop]

This video is compelling. Anyone know how real it is, or if it
is likely to be seen on the ST or other Yamaha bikes anytime
soon?

KTM's Uncrashable Bike: New Bosch ABS | News | Motorcyclenews.com

 

[greg the pole]

it's real.
ktm have updated their abs programming for the 1190. Apparently they worked together with bosch to optimize it.
Brakes on the st are first rate, not sure why you would need to put the binders on that hard mid corner. It goes against everything that we're told when learning to ride bikes.

 

[markjenn]

There are tens of reasons why you might want to put the brakes on hard mid-corner - cornering speed misjudgment, road debris, critters, someone stopped in the middle of the road, whatever.

KTM/Bosch are pitching this as a revolution, but I think it is more evolutionary. ABS systems, from the very first, have been able to prevent loss-of-control accidents while cornering, but the chances the ABS system would release the brakes enough to regain traction before you crashed went down rapidly as lean angle increased. What KTM/Bosch are doing now is incorporating a lean angle sensor into the picture which gives the system a much more hair-trigger response to any sign of wheel locking while leaned over. I doubt it would allow you to have the bike scraping a peg and then hammer the brakes, but I'm sure it opens up the envelope much further.

Incorporating lean angle sensors (and soon pitch and yaw sensors) into braking and traction control systems of bikes is the next big thing. The S10 doesn't have it (yet) so we're not cutting edge. That being said, the S10 has VERY good brakes and a VERY good ABS system. The KTM/Bosch system is a genuine advance, but it carries, as these things always do, the usual burdens of cost, complexity, and to some, loss of mastery of the machine.

- Mark

 

[squarebore]

Re: "Uncrashable" cornering ABS 2014 KTM 1190

Bring it on. I have no mastery and can use all the new trickery available. I have had to brake hard in a corner and the s10 brakes are excellent. If they can be made better, then awesome.

 

[loop]

There are tens of reasons why you might want to put the brakes on hard mid-corner - cornering speed misjudgment, road debris, critters, someone stopped in the middle of the road, whatever.

Squirrel!

 

[creggur]

Re: "Uncrashable" cornering ABS 2014 KTM 1190

I was one of those, "I don't need no ABS on my bike, I want to be in complete control" guys until the Tenere saved my ass from a boneheaded reaction in an emergency situation.

I still relegated myself to some parking lot practice afterward because no amount of technology will overcome too much stupid - I was lucky that my stupid threshold was within the bike's ability to save me.

Now, I'm all for better!

 

[offcamber]

I'd like to see how it works on a slippery surface...like wet road. I have found the biggest obstacles in corners are wet leaves....about as slippery as ice. I am guessing in those situations this new ABS might help but not by much. I am all for improving the system but riders still need to have some skills.

 

[greg the pole]

I'm all for improved tech. I think both the tc and abs system on the tenere is first rate.
That said, the basics, and skill still has to be with the rider, can't rely entirely on tech.

 

[Dirt_Dad]

Cool. Nice to see technology moving forward, but yes, basic skills will always be required. I'm a big fan of ABS. I'm good...it's better.


On a side note, that KTM looks so much like a VStrom to me. Throws me every time I see it.

 

[wfopete]

What the 1190 needs is "Vertical Control" for the enjoyment of keeping the front end in the air without the nasty side effects.

 

[GrahamD]

What the 1190 needs is "Vertical Control" for the enjoyment of keeping the front end in the air without the nasty side effects.

I'm sure that will happen at some point when they run out of sensible things to add to next years model. It will be disguised as a safety feature and the reviewers will do the responsible thing and test it thoroughly to make sure it works. ::024::

All ADV bikes from that point on will have short wheelbases and a high COG.

 

[Checkswrecks]

I'd like to see how it works on a slippery surface...like wet road. I have found the biggest obstacles in corners are wet leaves....about as slippery as ice. I am guessing in those situations this new ABS might help but not by much. I am all for improving the system but riders still need to have some skills.

Wet roads and loss of contact are separate issues. Even the best systems could not keep up if the tire is loosing contact at a fast enough frequency between sand particles or leaves on the pavement.

We need to remember that ABS and traction control types of systems relate to fore-aft forces. In a corner, leaves, sand, dust, etc are actual loss of contact with the pavement combined with lateral/sideways forces. This is a different situation, in that what you are hoping for is before the gravity and physics have time to function and you fall, that the tire finds enough actual pavement to find something to re-establish friction upon.


And then the system needs the time (fractions of a second) to able to modulate the power or braking to keep that friction. Since there are probably many grains of sand on the pavement, or many leaves, this whole thing happens over and over REALLY fast.


If during one of those establish/lose/re-establish cycles the bike goes far enough sideways or up the sidewall(s) to on the roll axis around the bikes' fore-aft centerline, you get beyond the math limits in the software and the system won't help you.


Sand and leaves also cause the front tire to lose the torsional grip that the front tire needs to have, so the handlebars can suddenly feel totally loose for fractions of a second. Your natural reaction will be slower than that fraction, so you either make wrong inputs or just get behind time-wise, in what aviation calls PIO for pilot induced oscillations. Again, you're screwed.


So I typed the above, did a really simple Google search for an image of the roll axis, and came across this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics
The good pertinent stuff starts about halfway down the page.

 

[Koinz]

There are tens of reasons why you might want to put the brakes on hard mid-corner - cornering speed misjudgment, road debris, critters, someone stopped in the middle of the road, whatever.

+1 - Lost my Vstrom in a hard braking situation (going up a hill on a blind right sweeping turn). The guys I was riding with decided to stop at the top (dumb asses). Road was gravel covered and I went sliding. Of course the Vstrom 1k had no abs so I didn't have a chance on that one.

 

[scott123007]

I guess I'm still living 1970s motorcycling. I don't want ABS, side stand safety switches, traction control, combined brakes. They can keep all of it, or offer it as optional. I'd rather not have the ABS ect on the Tenere, but we get it, so I got it, but rather wish I didn't.

Your attitude is what has made Harley Davidson so innovative. LOL

 

[BaldKnob]

Your attitude is what has made Harley Davidson so innovative. LOL

Hee, Hee! That, ^^^, is some funny sH!+

I love that Yamaha decided to put ABS on the S10 as standard equipment and engineered it to work as well as it does. Straight line braking performance is outstanding even before the ABS kicks in but it is limited to the bike being "vertical". Once leaned over, rider skill and experience are required to save your bacon and Bosch's new ABS is the next logical step to assist in those specific situations.

Soon, all road going motorcycles will have some form of ABS and the "People" will say, '... how did We live without it?' The result will be safer machines and newbies dependant on ABS.

 

[squarebore]

Re: "Uncrashable" cornering ABS 2014 KTM 1190

That must be the allure of ABS, the newbe thing. As a rider of near 50yrs I find it intrusive in everyday riding and feel it detracts from my braking. Surely I can't be the only one that brakes, hits a couple of ripples in the road and feel the ABS kick on/off extending brake distance X feet. Well X feet may not matter most the time, but X feet can be right in the middle of an intersection, or a collision. I don't get it really, but I got it and live with it OK. At least the Tenere has a decent ABS system.

You may be in the very small 1% of riders who can brake better without ABS. Most of us can't.

 

[BaldKnob]

Re: "Uncrashable" cornering ABS 2014 KTM 1190

You may be in the very small 1% of riders who can brake better without ABS. Most of us can't.

Even CycleWorld's professional test riders cannot "consistently" outbrake the ABS shod machine on the street or dirt.

 

[Chequeneglia]

There are tens of reasons why you might want to put the brakes on hard mid-corner - cornering speed misjudgment, road debris, critters, someone stopped in the middle of the road, whatever.

KTM/Bosch are pitching this as a revolution, but I think it is more evolutionary. ABS systems, from the very first, have been able to prevent loss-of-control accidents while cornering, but the chances the ABS system would release the brakes enough to regain traction before you crashed went down rapidly as lean angle increased. What KTM/Bosch are doing now is incorporating a lean angle sensor into the picture which gives the system a much more hair-trigger response to any sign of wheel locking while leaned over. I doubt it would allow you to have the bike scraping a peg and then hammer the brakes, but I'm sure it opens up the envelope much further.

Incorporating lean angle sensors (and soon pitch and yaw sensors) into braking and traction control systems of bikes is the next big thing. The S10 doesn't have it (yet) so we're not cutting edge. That being said, the S10 has VERY good brakes and a VERY good ABS system. The KTM/Bosch system is a genuine advance, but it carries, as these things always do, the usual burdens of cost, complexity, and to some, loss of mastery of the machine.

- Mark

::026::

 

[offcamber]

That must be the allure of ABS, the newbe thing. As a rider of near 50yrs I find it intrusive in everyday riding and feel it detracts from my braking. Surely I can't be the only one that brakes, hits a couple of ripples in the road and feel the ABS kick on/off extending brake distance X feet. Well X feet may not matter most the time, but X feet can be right in the middle of an intersection, or a collision. I don't get it really, but I got it and live with it OK. At least the Tenere has a decent ABS system.

This is the same tired argument that happened when ABS was introduced on automobiles. Its not about stopping in less distance, its about keeping control by mitigating wheel lock. Yes there will be instances where ABS may do more harm than good but like with seat belts the odds are far in your favor that they will save your life rather than cause it to be ended.
The Yamaha ABS system IMO works flawlessly. I can't say when I have braked hard on any surface that I felt the bike went further than it should have. This includes loose gravel over hard pack, which I'm on every time I ride. I know the ABS on this bike saved my skin a few times. For the record I am far from a newb rider.

KTMs systems seems the natural next step for ABS/TC on bikes.

 

[Chequeneglia]

KTMs systems seems the natural next step for ABS/TC on bikes.

Yeah!... it will be a boring future, but it´s true...