The Darkside.......

[groundhog]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

I've used them..............on a car where they should be.

 

[loftybob]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

I've used them..............on a car where they should be.

Good Boy

 

[RCinNC]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

I have logged up over 100,000 Km's using car tyres on my high performance, and touring bikes.

No troubles, no accidents, just massive grip, and no punctures.

My Triumphs are all insured with Shannons as having a car tyre fitted.






The only people that should be debating this, are the riders that have used them.

You should be ashamed of yourself. There's no room in this debate for real world testing and experiences.

There was a debate back in 2014 between Bill Nye and Ken Ham. The substance of the debate isn't relevant, but the question put to both of them was "What, if anything, would ever change your mind?". Ham answered "nothing", and Nye answered "evidence". That same principal seems to exist here.

 

[Judd]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

I'm glad you mentioned this.
I have mentioned before that a car tire on a motorcycle is a problem due to the flat square profile because when hitting uneven surfaces it will move you off your line.
lets say you are riding and there are some pot holes and some crap from the pot holes on the road near those pot holes. Hitting anything that is not either at the center of the tire or covering
the whole witch of the tire the bike will be pushed around. This was one of the very first things I noticed when I tried out a bike with a car tire.
It could be quite a mess going over debris encounters on the road or a few rocks on a curve.

Now I'm not saying that it alone will kill you instantly just because of that. What I am saying is that it is a question of tipping points (pun intended).
We all know that sometimes we make it through/past something ... only just. make it. A CT on a motorbike is at least in part is not tipping things in your favor.

Let me put my comment of the CT not being the best at off tarmac riding in context.

The extra tire width {on my DL the stock tire has a 150mm width, the CT was 205mm} was blatantly noticeable when riding rough off tarmac stuff which is why a stated roots, rocks and ruts. Please notice the "rough" part as most or the time, I'm not dong that sorta stuff and I don't think someone that would be doing that sorta stuff would be thinking about running a CT in the first place just as they wouldn't be thinking of running say,,,,, a ME880 MT right? As far as the pot hole example, the extra width issue was only as issue for my bike/CT issue at low speeds,,,,,, such as when riding in rocks, ruts and roots. The only time I noticed the issue on tarmac was when doing slow speed stuff and crossing pronounced and large surface irregularities such as when a road is being paved and there is a pronounced difference is tarmac heights between lanes or when rolling diagonally from the street to a much higher drive like when a driveway meets a road and the drive immediately gains elevation. These are all conditions in which you normally experience at slow speeds, slow enough that you are not counter steering the bike. In the example of the tarmac being paved and the lanes are different, if you hit the exact thing at speed, it isn't much different than a normal sized MT. As for as your pothole theory goes, I've hit many a large pot hole at speed and it wasn't enough of an issue to even notice.

 

[shrekonwheels]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

While Yellow Wolf might be an anomaly in so much as his speed on 129,,,,,, he is not an outlier at all when it comes to running a CT on a bike perfectly safely. Many, many people do it all the time, again,,,,, if you had an instance where a CT was the over riding cause of an accident,,,,, it would sweep the internet like a wild fire in Kalifornia. I've also noticed that most of the folks that tend to run a CT or at least try one are the more experienced riders.

A lot of people just don't have confidence in their abilities to ride much less to notice small changes and react to those changes. I can understand that completely because I was just like that many, many years ago when I was young and racing. I just "had to have" the "in tires". The tires the "fast guys" were running. There have been times when I couldn't run my preferred tires or the preferred I had on at the time were compromised due to wear or heat cycling and I was slower, not just a little bit slower,,,, a shit load slower. To the point of not making sense. Many, many people are like that because they ride with confidence in their equipment, not so much in their skills. Often, these folks don't have the ability to make mundane suspension changes much less hugely changing things up by swapping whole front ends or the like. The whole time I was racing, I was like that. I had to have the "in tire", I had to have the "experts" adjust my suspension for me and eventually, I grew the balls to make mundane damping and preload adjustments but I needed an expert to get me in the ball park. I did my best to start every race on newly scuffed tires,,,,,,,,, cost me a damned fortune for stupid plastic trophies.

I got hurt bad in a completely different accident {truck crash where I ended up with three fused vertabra, several cracked and damaged in addition. When the docs fixed my back, they stole my balls,,,,, when I came back, I was slow as hell. Never could get back to with-in a second of so of my pre wreck times. Completely lost my confidence and no matter what "in tires" I mounted, I couldn't replicate my times. I quit, quite riding completely for a few years then got back into it. Went right back to sportbikes and started doing trackdays immediately with in a month or two of starting back. Thing was, this time I was on a R1 and I just didn't have the money to waste on the "in tires" much less swapping them out all the timeso I started experimenting.

I generally didn't experiment too much with the front but I would try all manner of stuff on the rear. During a few years of track day experimentation I learned to adapt to less than perfect tires, especially on the rear. So what, your rear is a super hard endurance slick, just don't feed in as much throttle on the exits. So what that the tire you have out back was too soft, you over heated it and you are laying darkies outta every corner to the point of chunking big chunks off it, slow it down a couple of notches, maybe even come in early,,,, adapt and learn.

Saying that, I have tried all sorta combos on the track, the road and off tarmac that supposedly won't work but did. Sometimes the combos sucked, most times they were acceptable as long as you noted the limitations, at times the combo worked better than you woulda ever imagined. If you don't have the confidence and self control to experiment, don't. I just wish that those that don't wouldn't stretch the bubble gum with stories of the sky falling, nuns dying and kittens being maimed all because one supposed dumbass has the audacity to experiment. That crap about being worried one of those dumbass darksiders will run into the worry wart when their experiment inevitably goes haywire is just that,,,, crap.

When I first saw people running CTs, I thought they were crazy too. I just didn't feel the need to ridicule them, cross post on different forums and make up reasons of "public safety" as to why they were crazy. I just noted they were running them, asked a few questions and went along my way.

A car tire has its use, which is to help carry extra weight which no current motorcycle tire is able to do. It also has a use on a bike for Sidecars.
It should not be used for regular riding to simply "Extend the life of the tire cause I am a cheap bastard" anymore than someone should run their tires until they are bald, or use Knobbies on a street track or a Dunlop Qualifier on the dirt. Simply because it can be done, does not mean it should.
A CT Will have inherently poorer handling characteristics over a motorcycle tire, simply do to the profile. While some inexperienced people, or even those who grow used to them may not notice the deficient handling, it does not mean it is not there it absolutely is.
I am not in the camp that thinks the Nazis intentionally tried to sabotage the Russians by leaving motorcycles fitted with car tires hoping for instant sabatoge, but rather a voice who only hopes people will understand what the abilities, or lack of are with whatever equipment they so choose.

As to peoples abilities and the CT being used where it should not. We all at some point have bad habits or simply ignorance and somehow we manage to get along just fine.
An example could be that crusty old Harley rider who has no Idea what counter steering is, uses only his rear brake, and somehow thinks that tailgating too close is the way to get a vehicle out of his way which weighs two tons more and rides drunk. He may indeed make it to a ripe old age, however the odds are against him.

Thus why we all should do our best and understand our abilities, and our limitations, which is my only stance.

BTW, 15 years I was one of those Riders who did not know what counter steering was other than to correct a slide. I thought it was funny to ride with only one arm while fighting my bikes gyroscopic effect and dragging my pegs/tailpipes on my cruise laughing at how scared the bimbo was riding behind me. It simply was youth, and gross ignorance which I will avoid now in my later years as I have a understanding of how lucky I indeed was during that time frame and I expanded my knowledge to increase my odds while riding.

My Mother was one of those closed minded people who knew all, and you could not tell her how to properly drive. She would be killed in an automobile accident which cause is still unkown.
Today is the anniversary of that death, what I do know of that accident, is had she listened to myself, and my father (Both professional drivers at one time or another) she would have more than likely been able to mitigate said carnage.

SO I ask the reader to only keep an open mind, and truly consider and understand the risks they are taking, nothing more.

[Quote; Chekcswrecks]
I agree that dragging parts is not advisable. But I'm also aware, as you seem to be, that for some types of motorcycle it is very common and actually hard to not do. It's also why floorboard, foot pegs, and some other parts are (or should be) hinged. [/quote]
Pfftt, just ride like an old man, slow as hell.

Which I seem to be doing lately, I caught myself cruising along at 20 in a 25, mother of god what is going on?

 

[2112]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

There's no room in this debate for real world testing and experiences.

::026:: this is the most sensible post of this thread - so far ::012::

 

[Judd]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

A car tire has its use, which is to help carry extra weight which no current motorcycle tire is able to do. It also has a use on a bike for Sidecars.
It should not be used for regular riding to simply "Extend the life of the tire cause I am a cheap bastard" anymore than someone should run their tires until they are bald, or use Knobbies on a street track or a Dunlop Qualifier on the dirt. Simply because it can be done, does not mean it should.
A CT Will have inherently poorer handling characteristics over a motorcycle tire, simply do to the profile. While some inexperienced people, or even those who grow used to them may not notice the deficient handling, it does not mean it is not there it absolutely is.
<snipped for brevity since my post is so danged long>

So,,,, if a CT has a use on big bikes that carry a lot of weight and I am to assume it's safe in your opinion {you are the one that stated "A car tire has it's use"} carrying all that extra weight, why would it be so terribly wrong to use in in an application that doesn't fit your "has it's place"? There are other reasons to use a CT other than your two scenarios which according to your own post are- "bike and shit weighs a shitload" and "I'm a cheap bastard". For your information, I and many others did not try the CT because of your assumed "cheap bastard" reason, I tried it because I was going on a trip to Ecuador two up and loaded up like a som-bitch and there was not a single MT that would remotely fit my wheel that would last much more than 8K mile. The closest MT at the time that would come close to say,,, 8K miles when used in that application would have been a ME880. I have run ME880s and they suck, the CT is better in every application excepting low speed rough stuff. And yes, I know there places to buy a MT along the way. It's a PITA, I have been caught out more than once paying out the nose for a tire I really didn't even want in the 1st place simply because it was it was the only option short of getting shit shipped in or renting a truck/car and trailer. I hate procuring tires on the road so much, I generally carry a spare rear, since I was carrying my wife back there, that wasn't an option.

Again, you are making a lot of assumptions with- "A CT Will have inherently poorer handling characteristics over a motorcycle tire, simply do to the profile". Again, once the right CT/motorcycle/pressure combination in certain applications, it's really one of if not the best choices and the handling while not as good as some MT choices, may in fact be better than other MT tire combos. If I or someone else mentioned they were gonna try a ME880 or maybe a Michelin Commander on their Wee Strom, you and many in the peanut gallery wouldn't be freaking out so much. That wouldn't be based on data gathered due to experience, it's based on an opinion based on nothing more than conjecture. I can tell you right here and now with complete honesty that I would much rather run the Shinko 705 front/CT rear combo than a set of POS ME880s and how many people on this very forum run ME880s on a regular basis???? There isn't pages of posts calling them stupid, idiots or say,,,,, cheap bastards. Secondly,,,, have you actually tried running a CT? If so, did you just pop in some air, take it for a spin, proclaim it sucked then changed it out? Or did you "ride someone else's bike" for 10 miles with the sheer audacity of doing such a thing constantly in your mind, constantly your head to the point where no matter how it felt and or performed,,,,, you woulda stated that it sucked because you had already made your mind up?????

Again,,,, I rode one for 13K miles and beat the shit outta it. I am no Rossi, I am not even no Schwantz,,,,,, I am however pretty derned quick for a 48yr old man whose had major reconstructive surgery. I am however a naturally curious person with an open mind willing to try things that might benefit me. I am also highly suspicious of the sheeple mentality that makes people think they and only they know the answer even if they haven't a clue of WTF they are talking about because they don't have the constitution {lack of balls}, the confidence of skill or experience to experiment. Even in the face of overwhelming anecdotal evidence showing that it works and works well in some applications, not so well in other. With the internet being what it is, having the ability to find a fart in a windstorm,,,,,, I have heard of no instance of a single catastrophic failure or being the predominant cause of a wreck they still shrill on and on about "catastrophic failures,,,, or handling characteristics that stack up to a root cause failure. I and other are no more a "cheap bastards" than some are sackless, splineless, safetycrats with no skills,,,, scared to death to do anything some "expert" says will cause the sky to fall and contribute to global warming and the eventual downfall of mankind they make up arguments and debate points even though they are talkin outta their rumps.

I nor others have never once stated unequivocally that a CT is the end all for rear tire choice. We have said it has it's pluses and minuses, applications where the CT works and works well and applications where it either works so-so or not at all. No where have we stated that everydamnedbody needs to go out and run a CT. Yet the people who ridicule will often be so polarized they refuse to admit it works and works well in certain applications.

 

[squarebore]

Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

After reading all the threads, I have concluded there is only one reason you would put a CT on a two wheeled motorcycle, to save money.

If they last longer it is to save money.

They don't handle better.

They may handle worse.

Do what you like, but I've seen no evidence to suggest I would ever try it. If I can't afford the best tyres available, I can't afford to ride.

 

[Judd]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

Well, you have been proven wrong in your conclusion then. ::021:: ::025::

 

[loftybob]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

After reading all the threads, I have concluded there is only one reason you would put a CT on a two wheeled motorcycle, to save money.

If they last longer it is to save money.

They don't handle better.

They may handle worse.

Do what you like, but I've seen no evidence to suggest I would ever try it. If I can't afford the best tyres available, I can't afford to ride.

You forgot about the ability to pull wheel stands in the wet, superior braking performances, and did I mention the grip, the grip, ohh my Lordy, the grip.

 

[bigbob]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

I can't believe this discussion goes on for 4 pages. The only place for car tires on a motorcycle is if it doesn't have to lean, like when there is a sidecar fitted. Otherwise, there is a really big clue in the phrase "car tires" - notice the first word?

DC where are you? Do not recall an update for a while.

 

[dcstrom]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

You forgot about the ability to pull wheel stands in the wet, superior braking performances, and did I mention the grip, the grip, ohh my Lordy, the grip.

This reinforces my suspicion - people who are advocating car tires for use on a solo motorcycle don't really know how to ride, so are not the best judge of tire performance. How do I know? "superior braking performances" Are you running a car tire on the front? If not you won't get much improvement in braking performance from a car tire on the rear - proper use of front brake means that due to weight transfer most of the braking occurs through the front tire, rear has little to do with it. Only if you are one of those riders who don't touch the front brake cos you're scared of flippin' it, would you think you get more braking from a CT on the rear.

And Lordy, the grip... is only when you're upright, which implies that you don't really lean the bike very much in a corner, which implies... I'm sorry, but you don't know how to ride. Also, if for some reason you were talented enough to lean the bike a long way on a car tire, you really aren't going to get much grip because car tires are a completely different rubber compound... cheaper, harder, and not meant for motorcycles. Funny that!

I should add that I'm only talking about "normal" motorcycles here (since we are on the Super Tenere forum), not cruisers, choppers, drag bikes or anything along those lines. Never ridden one, no desire to, and the dynamics are such that I consider them dangerous even with the recommended tires. (As an aside... riding a KLR in Colorado mountains one time, a group of cruisers were holding me up... they all piled into a corner way too fast - and about 30mph slower than I wanted to go - and the corner tightened up, they all ran out of ground clearance and got spat off. Five of them. I spent the next hour helping them pick up the pieces.)

 

[dcstrom]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

DC where are you? Do not recall an update for a while.

Yep, still here! Armenia now, just spent a month in Iran. Will post a 100,000 mile update on the Super Tenere soon!

 

[shrekonwheels]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

I guess I find it interesting that those darksiders are mentioning ct brands, tread design or compounds, as if all CT tires are created equal.

 

[groundhog]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

This reinforces my suspicion - people who are advocating car tires for use on a solo motorcycle don't really know how to ride, so are not the best judge of tire performance. How do I know? "superior braking performances" Are you running a car tire on the front? If not you won't get much improvement in braking performance from a car tire on the rear - proper use of front brake means that due to weight transfer most of the braking occurs through the front tire, rear has little to do with it. Only if you are one of those riders who don't touch the front brake cos you're scared of flippin' it, would you think you get more braking from a CT on the rear.

And Lordy, the grip... is only when you're upright, which implies that you don't really lean the bike very much in a corner, which implies... I'm sorry, but you don't know how to ride. Also, if for some reason you were talented enough to lean the bike a long way on a car tire, you really aren't going to get much grip because car tires are a completely different rubber compound... cheaper, harder, and not meant for motorcycles. Funny that!

I should add that I'm only talking about "normal" motorcycles here (since we are on the Super Tenere forum), not cruisers, choppers, drag bikes or anything along those lines. Never ridden one, no desire to, and the dynamics are such that I consider them dangerous even with the recommended tires. (As an aside... riding a KLR in Colorado mountains one time, a group of cruisers were holding me up... they all piled into a corner way too fast - and about 30mph slower than I wanted to go - and the corner tightened up, they all ran out of ground clearance and got spat off. Five of them. I spent the next hour helping them pick up the pieces.)

::026:: Well said. That sums it all up perfectly !!

 

[Judd]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

This reinforces my suspicion - people who are advocating car tires for use on a solo motorcycle don't really know how to ride, so are not the best judge of tire performance. How do I know? "superior braking performances" Are you running a car tire on the front? If not you won't get much improvement in braking performance from a car tire on the rear - proper use of front brake means that due to weight transfer most of the braking occurs through the front tire, rear has little to do with it. Only if you are one of those riders who don't touch the front brake cos you're scared of flippin' it, would you think you get more braking from a CT on the rear.

And Lordy, the grip... is only when you're upright, which implies that you don't really lean the bike very much in a corner, which implies... I'm sorry, but you don't know how to ride. Also, if for some reason you were talented enough to lean the bike a long way on a car tire, you really aren't going to get much grip because car tires are a completely different rubber compound... cheaper, harder, and not meant for motorcycles. Funny that!

I should add that I'm only talking about "normal" motorcycles here (since we are on the Super Tenere forum), not cruisers, choppers, drag bikes or anything along those lines. Never ridden one, no desire to, and the dynamics are such that I consider them dangerous even with the recommended tires. (As an aside... riding a KLR in Colorado mountains one time, a group of cruisers were holding me up... they all piled into a corner way too fast - and about 30mph slower than I wanted to go - and the corner tightened up, they all ran out of ground clearance and got spat off. Five of them. I spent the next hour helping them pick up the pieces.)

Actually, the rear braking is improved alot. So much so that I started using the rear brake alot more when I put the CT on my DL650. Still use the front primarily, just the added CT gives increased traction that can be taken advantage of sometimes.

Yes, hard to beleive and if you don't believe, I really don't give a rat's rump but CT gave more grip while leaning over. Matter of fact, when I replaced the rear CT with my normal 705, I nearly busted my rump a time or two untill I grew accoustomed to the MT's lack of traction as compared to the CT I was using.

The last time I did any track stuff was about 5-6yrs ago. At the time I was running a 99R1 with a pipe, penske shock and AK20 valving in the forks. I am a Advanced/Expert level track day rider and was turning low to middlin 1:05s at Tally, around 1:37s at Road Atlanta and that's the slowest I've been as I'm getting older and I had a pretty bad accident years ago which required pretty exstensive back sugeries. When they fixed my back, they stole my balls so yea, I used to be alot faster when I was racing D Production, D Superbike and Formula2. Basically could vie for 1st-5th place in any race I was running back then so your suspecion is dead wrong.

Anyone want to check out my abilities, come by N. Ga.... shoot me a PM and we'll meet up. Just like talking out your rump and making assumption on CTs' handling and performance when you have never once ran one, you shouldn't make comments when you don't really know the person/people you are generalizing and marginalizing.

 

[Judd]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

I guess I find it interesting that those darksiders are mentioning ct brands, tread design or compounds, as if all CT tires are created equal.

No, they are not created equal and I have specifically noted that in other posts if you care to do a search but you can only get to so much when idiots are talking outta their asses on a subject they personally have no experience in. Do some searching on the subject and you will find whole forums and threads of specific bikes and what CT work well on them in actual, real world experiences. I find it interesting that some idiots think that any MT has to be better than any CT no matter the applicaton. If I had a choice of popping a ME880 out back or a CT like the one I had on my DL,,,, I'd pick the CT anyday. You wouldn't, because you haven't the set, skills or ability to do a little experimentation on your own. Expert says not to, "yes sir,,,,, I sho don't wants to get hurt cause da experts say I would fo sho."

 

[shrekonwheels]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

No, they are not created equal and I have specifically noted that in other posts if you care to do a search but you can only get to so much when idiots are talking outta their asses on a subject they personally have no experience in. Do some searching on the subject and you will find whole forums and threads of specific bikes and what CT work well on them in actual, real world experiences. I find it interesting that some idiots think that any MT has to be better than any CT no matter the applicaton. If I had a choice of popping a ME880 out back or a CT like the one I had on my DL,,,, I'd pick the CT anyday. You wouldn't, because you haven't the set, skills or ability to do a little experimentation on your own. Expert says not to, "yes sir,,,,, I sho don't wants to get hurt cause da experts say I would fo sho."

Currently Working as a Maintenance tech, SO I plumb, Operate Heavy Equipment, which I also repair, Weld, Fab, hell I even trap and live trap Animals.

My Background is primarily heavy equipment, operating, wrenching, Fabing. Dad was a Boiler Maker/Welder when I was a kid so I grew up burning metal.

Cool you got to put a CT on a bike though ::012::

Unless you want to show us your massive ability on the track again with a CT in an actual race, ya know cause tires burn out and what an advantage you would have with all that acceleration and stopping power you would have, you probably aught to quit insulting.

 

[SilverBullet]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

I have a death wish. I want to go ride The Tail of the Dragon.
I have a full Rumbux set.
Need to install a Fenda Extenda, Heindau K60 on front, CT on rear and dive into the turns at 3X speed. Lol

Actually being the curious type I would have already tried a CT but universally acclaimed by all users how bad they track on rough, rutted and uneven off road dirt/rocks. Since that is what I like to ride whenever possible I wont be trying one.

_

 

[OldRider]

Re: Car Tires - What people think are the negatives or want to debate

Damn place is starting to look more like the GL1800 forum every day. I keep waiting for 211Chuck to show up.