My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

[TheCouzin780]

Re: My bizarre & seemingly unsolvable cruise control issues...hoping for new ideas.

I almost feel like a master auto mechanic would more likely have the equipment needed than the dealer, no?

I'll ask about this.

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The Dealership should have a picoscope for electrical diag.

 

[Don in Lodi]

Cool. 30 years doing this chit and I'd never heard of the company Picoscope. Nor have I heard that it's morphed into a generic term for a lab/oscilloscope. Like a battery tender made by Battery Tender. The prices don't look bad for a basic two channel scope. In the same range as a hi end Fluke meter.

 

[mebgardner]

If you want to scare yourself, learn about the cyber hacks that can be done to your car.

Do I want to know?

 

[Jeff Milleman]

I changed my front tire the other day and it said on the speed sensor ring not to get by a Magnet... I am sure the factory boys can ck that when you take it in , that was today ??? keep us posted.

 

[mebgardner]

I admire the Yamaha engineering staff building in remote sensing and simulation capability.

But...

... being a 40+ year SW engineering professional in the embedded systems realm, I know something about simulations.

Since we're talking about a position and rate sensing system, then the remote sim, and the embedded system, have a dependency on the rate of data being supplied from the sim to the remote system (your cycle).

It kinda limits the fidelity of the results *or* it limits the type of tests that can be reliably performed (obtaining results with enough fidelity to be "believeable".)

That, and the idea of "how does one remotely simulate a data input, to sim a remote sensor, that is magnetically generated?" e: Its a electrical input from a magnetic sensor? You can sim the electrical input sampling, past the A/D converter, but you can not sim the actual electrical input, or the actual sensor output, either of those "real world" things. You also cannot sim the electrical harness.

You can electronically "fake" all the signal inputs at the digital side, but not really at the analog side. Unless they (Yamaha) put in analog signals from an external analog signal generating system, attached to the remote sim controller, during the test.

With this note, I'm attempting to "calibrate" your expectations. Now, you can ask questions during the test, if you're present, and gain some understanding of what's being tested, and how.

 

[sigeye]

It's time for an update! OK, so here is how things went down...

Yesterday 08/08, the engineer and the dealership performed the remote evaluation of the circuits, relays, switches, etc. through the diagnostic tool on the dealership WiFi. Unfortunately, everything checked out OK and they results were yet again inconclusive. As you can imagine, I was deeply saddened by this but honestly was not too surprised based on how bizarre this whole issue has been.

However, at around 5pm same day, Yamaha Motor Corp. called the Service Manager again and advised that they want to also have one of their 'lead' engineers in California take a look now (first was from Alabama and was more front line engineering). They asked to keep the bike overnight (to which I complied of course) so the lead engineer could evaluate the data logs with the dealership tomorrow.

So, at 11am today 08/09, the lead Yamaha engineer contacted the dealership and they all went over the data logs and my repair attempt history and parts purchased. This was easy because I only buy at this store (I'm very loyal) so they have record of all parts I've replaced to try and fix this. After studying more, the lead engineer also came up inconclusive but felt 'positive' that switches, relays, sensors, etc. are not the issue. So, here comes the awesome part... ::012::

The lead engineer asked the dealer to let me know that they (Yamaha) are going to 'goodwill' a brand new wiring harness + installation to me at no charge whatsoever. This is AMAZING because my bike is well out of warranty (I never purchased extended) and I have 44k miles on it now. I was in disbelief at how well they are taking care of me. The harness has been ordered today and I'll be bringing the motorcycle back sometime next week for the replacement. The engineer and the dealership feel very good about this resolving the issues, but the engineer still advised that this is the absolute best guess and likely cause...so it could in fact not fix it because we can't identify the root cause. However, I feel great about this effort and they advised that they will look into next options if the wiring harness in fact does not fix it still.

Can I get a 'hell yeah!' for Yamaha and the dealership!!?? What a fantastic manufacturer truly standing behind a fantastic motorcycle! ::022::

Here's to next week...

 

[Checkswrecks]

"Heck yes"
::022::


It's one thing that's kept me coming back to Yamaha. I've personally had and first-hand known too many bad stories about how situations have turned out with HD, BMW, and other makers.

 

[mebgardner]

Hell Yeah, and Amen!

 

[Cycledude]

Great to hear Yamaha is willing to do whatever it takes to get it working properly !!! You are working with a GREAT dealer !

 

[Xclimation]

Hell Yeah!

I'm not as expert as some of y'all. But just for my own curiosity and saving myself time in the future. Could one tell if the harness is the problem by checking and measuring continuity on each wire of the harness?

 

[Gigitt]

One you have th harness out you can then in wrap it and visually check for squashed, worn or splits that could be the cause of intermittent electrical signals that could be the cause.

After visually checking you then man handle each connector and check the wire is seated correctly.

Last you can the test each wire for continuity while moving the wires. This checks for micro cracks or breach inside the wire that can short a wire due to temperature knocked and even virbration.

Replacing the harness is good. It will let the techs test it.

 

[Nikolajsen]

Great service ::012::
I really hope for the best.
But I must say, that I am surprised that they think it is the harness, and not a switch, sensor, analog input.

But of course, it coulf be a plug somewhere, from one of the above... :-\

 

[Blind Squirrel]

I can see why you are so loyal to that dealer! ::008:: I wish they were all like that.

 

[Andylaser]

Awesome result. ;D

 

[Crew Chief]

Hell Yeah!

I'm not as expert as some of y'all. But just for my own curiosity and saving myself time in the future. Could one tell if the harness is the problem by checking and measuring continuity on each wire of the harness?

No. Continuity is really a pretty low threshold. In essence it will only tell you if the circuit is an open or complete. The circuits are all obviously complete to the largest extent, because all of the systems work at some point in time. That doesn't mean there can't be an intermittent open or even an intermittent increase in resistance that causes the problem. You might could find such an issue while measuring continuity or resistance and manipulating the wires like someone else explained. In this case, there are a large number of circuits that come into play and you have to be able to spot what might be a really quick transient change. Doing all of that manipulation while the harness is mounted in the frame may or may not be realistic. FWIW continuity is pretty much a resistance check. A low resistance circuit will give us a continuity indication.

This is a really complex problem. When we tie this many sensors and components together, we are going to occasionally come across this type of problem. At a $100 bucks an hour and with high component costs, it doesn't take long to run into real money in order to repair what is in essence a convenience item.

Kudos to Yamaha for sponsoring the new harness. The cost of the harness is minimal to them, paying the dealer to install it is not. There are of course other PR costs involved with providing that harness. On the plus side they garner some kudos, but they may also set up an expectation from other people in similar situations.

It will be interesting to see if the harness solves the problem. We have seen several issues with the Tenere that seem to be tied to harness problems, and obviously the engineers think it's possible here. I haven't really seen a final determination on what any of those problems were. Bad crimps? Bad wire strips? Poor solder joints? Inquiring minds would like to know.

 

[Checkswrecks]

... I haven't really seen a final determination on what any of those problems were. Bad crimps? Bad wire strips? Poor solder joints? Inquiring minds would like to know.

My experience with Yamaha and the other manufacturers is that you'll never see a final determination. It sounds like the engineer is shot-gunning with a well-educated guess and hopefully, the harness will go to a forensic lab of Yamaha's, which will probably be in Japan. There are numerous reasons for the company to not tell what they find wrong with their product, and no good reasons. Very normal for any manufacturer of almost anything.


As you wrote, with the increase in sensors, continuity alone is not everything. We've had to work through the same no-fault-found (NFF) experiences in aviation and the amazing current wire testing technology is far beyond what anybody can do in a garage or dealership.

 

[sigeye]

We have seen several issues with the Tenere that seem to be tied to harness problems, and obviously the engineers think it's possible here. I haven't really seen a final determination on what any of those problems were. Bad crimps? Bad wire strips? Poor solder joints? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Out of curiosity, what other issues have folks seen related to the wiring harness?

 

[Checkswrecks]

There were a couple in Gen1 for hard starting and one was for a rough running high mileage bike, but it turned out to not help
Beyond those if there were more, do a search from the home page with the words
replace harness


And cross out the totally separate little headlight harness recall that we had for the first Gen1 bikes.

 

[WJBertrand]

Comments on laboriously testing the old harness once removed from the bike. One, Yamaha will most likely keep the old harness, preventing any disassembly and testing by the owner. Secondly, in the unlikely case one gets to keep the old harness, don't waste your time testing it until one finds out if the new harness actually fixes the problem.

If Yamaha is interested in the failure they may do some diagnostics on it, or more likely just toss it into the shredder.

 

[Gigitt]

OK... so I might have an answer to your problem.

I was looking at Heal-Tech Speedohealer to see if it can be added to the S10 Gen 2 bike - not available!

But I was reading the supplementary install guides for the Yamaha FJR1300 2013+ which can be found here:
https://www.healtech-electronics.com/docs/Supplementary%20Manuals/SH-U01_FJR1300AE_2013_en.pdf

In the guide it states the following:

The 2013 model year and newer FJR1300s (“Generation 3” or “G3”, “Gen3”) have “Yamaha Chip Controlled Throttle (“YCCT”), Traction Control System (“TCS”) and Cruise Control. These systems utilize speed readings from BOTH front and rear wheels. Therefore, for optimal operation, you may want to install TWO (2) SpeedoHealer units – one for Front and one for Rear wheel speed signals – and program both of them exactly the same.

and also states

There are known issues with the cruise control: It cancels at seemingly random times – on average about every 15 minutes, and when set to ‘Conversion Mode’ (switch from a km/h reading to MPH) the it does not work at all. HealTech says some users either don’t have these problems or solve it by installing a 2nd SH on Front wheel circuit, which I tried without success. I usually prefer the accurate speedo and just re-set the cruise when it drops out. I can quickly bypass the SHs anytime I want the cruise to function properly. The 2nd SH might make the TCS and ABS function better due to consistency in the front and rear wheel speed info sent to the ECU.

so this!

looks like we might be closer answer to your issues with this information.
I think it was mentioned earlier that the ABS sensors might be the culprit.
well Heal-Tech have seen similar issues when using one speedohealer on the FJR1300 2013+
Seems like the ECU or CC Unit spits the dummy when there is a slight mismatch seen between the 2 wheels for speed sensing - and not enough for traction control to kick in.

IF this is the case then, yes test your sensors.
I also wonder if any magnets have touched the sensor rings - this is a big NO NO. The service manual warns you about it.

So Though you would like to know.