Yeah, but we were somewhat familiar with petroleum fires. Oil well fires weren't all that uncommon. At least petroleum fires can be smothered.
Lithium-Ion batteries, EVs, and myth busting
- Thread starter Checkswrecks
- Start date
SilverBullet
Well-Known Member
Which is also the same mileage when they sell off their ICE vehicles. I went to the Hertz Used Sales website and searched inventory by highest mileage. 12 out of the top 20 were Tesla's and typically later model years than the ICE vehicles. So that tells me Tesla rentals were successful for them racking up paid rental miles much faster than their ICE fleet.
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Cycledude
Well-Known Member
Started my Tenere for the first time in a couple months yesterday, it started instantly ! Lots of below zero weather lately so I wanted to move Tenere to a different building without solar heat and remove the Lithium battery because they say Lithium batteries and cold weather don’t go well together. Brought the Lithium battery into the house until March or April when I plan to start using it again.
No harm on bringing it inside but Li-Ion won't be harmed in the cold if just sitting. I simply leave one terminal disconnected.
It can be harmed when you try to charge it, such as when the bike just started, and the temps are low 20s or less.
RCinNC
Well-Known Member
Checkswrecks, I've never used a Li-ion battery, but your comment made me curious. Do you mean that, when you first start the bike and the stator starts to charge the battery, the battery can be harmed if the temps are in the low 20s, or do you mean that the battery can be harmed if you put it on an actual Li-ion battery charger after you start the bike and the temps are in the low 20s?
Having now worked in this field for the last 11+ years, you would not believe the number of magical devices we see companies trying to sell to fire departments all over the world. The most successful "special" fire extinguishers are typically F-500EA encapsulating agents which are somewhat successful and are being used in some cities. The users also need training to know how to get it to the cells themselves.
BUT those can generally not be justified for the cost of something which maybe - possibly - perhaps - could be needed - some day, or taking up the space of other more used equipment on a fire truck. Lots of cooling water (also a form of smothering) is still the best way to put out Li-Ion battery fires.
Lead-acid batteries act as a resistor when charging, so they essentially self-limit.
Li-Ion cells are greedy little bastards that will suck up whatever they can get from a charger, so the charger (or an internal battery management system BMS) has to do the limiting. The way the charging works is lithium ions in oil (electrolyte) move through a porous plastic (like Gore-Tex) separator and embed in sponge-like surfaces (looks like a layer of flat black spray paint) on the surfaces of the aluminum or copper sheets (cathode-anode), depending on whether charging or discharging. Trying to force the ions to move too fast results in them plating over the surface of the spongy layer because the oil is not thin enough to let them embed in the layer. The plating is called dendrites (blue) and they are hard sharp little crusts that can build surprisingly fast to poke holes through the plastic separator and create a short in your expensive battery cells.
The oil viscosity increasingly becomes a problem the colder you get from freezing. Charge rate is expressed as the term "C" meaning how fast the cell can be charged, as shown below:
This shows that if you charge REALLY slow, you can charge to some extremely cold temps. Without regulation you can cut the battery life to just a few more charge cycles. The problem is that something needs to regulate that charge and it is not something motorcycle electrical systems are designed to do, since they are designed for lead acid being a resistor and limiting itself.
A good (meaning expensive) lithium charger or good battery with a built in BMS (again adding price) will have a temp sensor for regulating the charge, even from really cold temps. Buyer beware to make sure you know what you have.
Li-Ion cells are greedy little bastards that will suck up whatever they can get from a charger, so the charger (or an internal battery management system BMS) has to do the limiting. The way the charging works is lithium ions in oil (electrolyte) move through a porous plastic (like Gore-Tex) separator and embed in sponge-like surfaces (looks like a layer of flat black spray paint) on the surfaces of the aluminum or copper sheets (cathode-anode), depending on whether charging or discharging. Trying to force the ions to move too fast results in them plating over the surface of the spongy layer because the oil is not thin enough to let them embed in the layer. The plating is called dendrites (blue) and they are hard sharp little crusts that can build surprisingly fast to poke holes through the plastic separator and create a short in your expensive battery cells.
The oil viscosity increasingly becomes a problem the colder you get from freezing. Charge rate is expressed as the term "C" meaning how fast the cell can be charged, as shown below:
This shows that if you charge REALLY slow, you can charge to some extremely cold temps. Without regulation you can cut the battery life to just a few more charge cycles. The problem is that something needs to regulate that charge and it is not something motorcycle electrical systems are designed to do, since they are designed for lead acid being a resistor and limiting itself.
A good (meaning expensive) lithium charger or good battery with a built in BMS (again adding price) will have a temp sensor for regulating the charge, even from really cold temps. Buyer beware to make sure you know what you have.
Tenforeplay
Active Member
Good batteries I would think have a bms that will correct for temperature issues, hot or cold.
Over 36,000 gallons of water used for electric vehicle fire on I-65 (wsfa.com)
How many fire trucks does it take to put out a Tesla fire?
How many fire trucks does it take to put out a Tesla fire?
Again it depends on price.
This is something that most motorcycle battery makers are unfortunately sly about. They will say their LiB is good to negative whatever, BUT what they don't point out that is only sitting there. Trying to find their permissible charging environment is something most don't make easy to find.
Shorai has no internal BMS but does go above the cheapies in stating:
| Avoid storage at temperatures below 0F/-18C or above 90F/32C whenever possible. Any charging during storage should be performed at temperatures above freezing, for best results. |
RCinNC
Well-Known Member
Do they make Li-ion batteries for motorcycles that don't have an integral BMS? Are they advertised as such? It sounds like, without one, you could get your bike started on a very cold morning with a Li-ion battery with a less than full charge, and subsequently damage the battery as you start riding and the stator begins charging the battery. Am I interpreting that correctly?
My cordless tool batteries have the same warning. Which is why I bring/store them inside the house. From May to October, 90° is the usual. Can't bring the bike inside. (without getting in trouble) Which is why I stick with the "old fashioned" batteries in it.
RC - You've got it right.
There are definitely LiB with internal BMS, but whether they limit cold charging is a different animal so stay with the reputable makers and make sure first.
Will Prowse is a YT guy who tests a lot of batteries (most bigger than we use) and it's astounding how many have a BMS but either have no cold charge limiting or non-functioning temp sensors.
There are definitely LiB with internal BMS, but whether they limit cold charging is a different animal so stay with the reputable makers and make sure first.
Will Prowse is a YT guy who tests a lot of batteries (most bigger than we use) and it's astounding how many have a BMS but either have no cold charge limiting or non-functioning temp sensors.
IF the fire department arrives before the plastic parts of the car catch fire (ICE or EV) which is not too common any more, then the answer is just a few hundred gallons. That's less than one tanker. Remember that ICE or EV, roughly 40% of cars are now plastic!
The link is unfortunately all too common and using so much water comes from the car already being fully involved or a lack of training.
Shameless plug - I do EV firefighter training and you can find me at www.HowItBroke.com
Trophyrider
New Member
Thanks all you guys, I opted to buy a 14S battery and will fit it in a few days and let you know the outcome.
Good move!
You should be working on an onboard fire extinguisher system for EVs! The battery and charger technology is not good enough yet to get the public to accept them. Combine that with the dealers that won't sell or service them. Half the Ford dealers in the US have opted out of selling EVs, same for the Buick dealers. Word is that GM gave them a choice to sell EVs or accept a buyout. I worked on industrial electric vehicles for more than 10 years and always thought an electric car would be great for running around town. That is until I saw the aftermath of fire caused by an internally shorted battery. Granted this was a 48v lead acid battery that weighed 4,000 lbs. very different than the Lithium Ion ones in today's EVs. The battery turned into a giant Roman candle. Fire department had to use some sort of foam to extinguish it. Vehicle was a total loss along with half the warehouse.
I hope someday EVs do become practical alternatives. As of today, I see way too many issues like high cost/low resale, limited range especially in hot or cold weather, high insurance rates, charging issues, lack of dealer support and especially battery replacement cost. The only advantage I see would be the tax credits.
I hope someday EVs do become practical alternatives. As of today, I see way too many issues like high cost/low resale, limited range especially in hot or cold weather, high insurance rates, charging issues, lack of dealer support and especially battery replacement cost. The only advantage I see would be the tax credits.
In commercial aviation, practically all manufacturers use lithium, the same as in airforces aircraft. Surely this is the result of rigorous tests that led manufacturers to opt for this type of battery. The problem of fires in lithium batteries must be related to the regular/poor batteries quality , or the charging system, or the electrical systems they power.
I'm afraid if they have an instant combustion….In my house, there are lithium batteries in every corner, charging and ready to be used….
That's what I did. And I just went to Batteries plus and paid about $90 instead of what a Yuasa is going for. But I don't ride in real cold or real secluded areas.
I still sometimes get to work with my old partner and we've been pushing each of the manufacturers for a fire department connection since 2017. Absolute total resistance from all the manufacturers, as it adds cost and decreases the battery/energy density of the complete pack, which means less range. NHTSA insists that design is totally up to the manufacturers as long as they meet certain crash and electric safety criteria.
The Renault Zoe is an older EU design that had a tear-away under the rear seat to let firefighters fill & flood the battery. There are a number of test videos where they put those out in less than a minute. Unfortunately it's not made anymore. The newest designs have zero room for such things or the spaces between the cells are filled with foam.
A huge part of this is the markets this dealers are serving. GMC dealers generally sell Buicks as a side line and outside of urban areas don't sell enough to justify the cost of servicing their EVs so gave up those. Pretty much same for the Ford dealers outside of more urban areas, such as the East Coast, because the Lightning is a great (and expensive) suburban vehicle but sure doesn't cut it for life on a farm.
While sales have slowed they are still solid, especially again where people can justify them with home charging and reasonable commuting lengths.
Been irritating to hear people go on about dead EVs in the winter. Norway is a lot colder than here and has a LOT more EVs yet has no issues because they don't freak out and do read the owners manual.