HARD START

flonic

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come back with a yamaha service information:
the problem of starting difficult with a predilection when the motorcycle is parked in the sun is due to a hose / pipe that takes the pressure of the gases formed in the tank (it is a constructive artifact for the Euro 4 models). when switching on and activating the start button, these gases would be included in the supply circuit at the same time as the gas supply from the gas pump.
hence the drowning of the engine with gasoline. the problem is that they did not give the solution.
 

EricV

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If the hose/pipe is external, could you perhaps insulate it to reduce the effects?

Sounds like an even better reason to use the stop switch. Less time between when the gases are released and you hit the start button.
 

Clawdog60

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come back with a yamaha service information:
the problem of starting difficult with a predilection when the motorcycle is parked in the sun is due to a hose / pipe that takes the pressure of the gases formed in the tank (it is a constructive artifact for the Euro 4 models). when switching on and activating the start button, these gases would be included in the supply circuit at the same time as the gas supply from the gas pump.
hence the drowning of the engine with gasoline. the problem is that they did not give the solution.
That was good for a laugh.
 

flonic

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If the hose/pipe is external, could you perhaps insulate it to reduce the effects?

Sounds like an even better reason to use the stop switch. Less time between when the gases are released and you hit the start button.
that was the discrete solution of yamaha (discreet, right?).
 

Tenman

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After my last warm engine hard start a few years ago. I came home and cycled my key 20 times and she fired right up. The other day I was adjusting my headlight and killed it a few times without the kill switch and it coughed a time or two but started without much difficulty. This really is weird.
 
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Does the Scorpion Li battery not require a regulator designed to charge it? I have read that if you use a Lithium battery, the regulator has to be changed out for one that will correctly charge that battery.
 

WJBertrand

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Does the Scorpion Li battery not require a regulator designed to charge it? I have read that if you use a Lithium battery, the regulator has to be changed out for one that will correctly charge that battery.
They recommend a special charger, but I’ve never heard of and none of the information material around my Scorpion Li battery refers to or even mentions a special regulator for a modern bike. Some older bikes with electro mechanical regulators can evidently overcharge though.

Where did you read this?


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That’s why I don’t use those batteries. Charging them is sketchy without a 300 dollar charger. So special regulator is likely but not available
This was true but is quickly changing. Companies are installing electronics in the case of the battery to regulate charging internally so that more bike can be fitted. I saw somewhere not long ago battery tender has released a charger that would do lead acid, agm and LI batteries for around $100 but I have not looked into that as of yet.
 

Checkswrecks

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Does the Scorpion Li battery not require a regulator designed to charge it? I have read that if you use a Lithium battery, the regulator has to be changed out for one that will correctly charge that battery.
All of the half-decent LiFePo4 batteries now on the market have a built-in battery management card so as long as your charging system is not putting out voltage which is too high they are generally plug and play. The following notes are from Shorai and I highlighted a couple of lines and added some thoughts:

Notes:
  • All Shorai Batteries require charging out of the box prior to use. [For THIS you DO need a charger meant for lithium batteries. See their last bullet below.]
  • It is extremely important that you use only the appropriate battery for your bike. A battery with incorrect amperage may damage the battery and your bike. [Pretty easy to check with the manufacturer or use the search here to see what has worked for others.]
  • Shorai Batteries require a charging system output of 13.1 Volts or higher at idle and must not exceed 15.2 volts at maximum output. [This is SUPER important because excessive charge with a BMS flaw absolutely can lead to burning down the bike and garage it is in.]
  • Shorai Batteries may not be a drop in replacement for all bikes, some modification to battery box, terminals etc may be necessary. [Usually some wood or foam to take up unused space in the box.]
  • Shorai recommends NOT using a charger or tender if it has a desulfation mode which cannot be turned off. Shorai has confirmed that the Battery Tender brand does NOT have a desulfation mode and are OK for use with Shorai LFX batteries. However the best possible charger/tender for the Shorai LFX is the Shorai SHO-BMS01 Battery Management System.
fwiw - I still recommend the Size 14 AGM battery for the Tenere and not lithiums, with reasons I've gone into before.
 

Checkswrecks

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WJBertrand

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I think I paid $35 for mine on Amazon to charge the KTM's lithium battery.

http://products.batterytender.com/Automotive/PN-021-0199-DL-WH.html
Yup, this is the one I have. Only $29.95 in my case. I think Shorai is one of the only manufacturers that still do not claim to have an internal BMS (battery management system) and therefore require use of their special charger to balance and manage charging externally. I've had the Scorpion LiFePO4 battery (with integral BMS) in my Tenere for almost a year now. No issues whatsoever. This included 3+ weeks just leaving it parked, not connected to a charger at all, while I was out of the country. The bike started immediately as though I'd ridden it just yesterday. In fact the only time I've used the charger is when I first received the battery because Scorpion ships them only 30% charged.

With the lead acid OEM battery, starting would be very slow after just sitting 2-3 days without being ridden and I was using the charger/maintainer regularly. The low self discharge rate of these Li batteries means you will rarely need the charger, it's a bit of a mindset change actually.
 
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All of the half-decent LiFePo4 batteries now on the market have a built-in battery management card so as long as your charging system is not putting out voltage which is too high they are generally plug and play. The following notes are from Shorai and I highlighted a couple of lines and added some thoughts:

Notes:
  • All Shorai Batteries require charging out of the box prior to use. [For THIS you DO need a charger meant for lithium batteries. See their last bullet below.]
  • It is extremely important that you use only the appropriate battery for your bike. A battery with incorrect amperage may damage the battery and your bike. [Pretty easy to check with the manufacturer or use the search here to see what has worked for others.]
  • Shorai Batteries require a charging system output of 13.1 Volts or higher at idle and must not exceed 15.2 volts at maximum output. [This is SUPER important because excessive charge with a BMS flaw absolutely can lead to burning down the bike and garage it is in.]
  • Shorai Batteries may not be a drop in replacement for all bikes, some modification to battery box, terminals etc may be necessary. [Usually some wood or foam to take up unused space in the box.]
  • Shorai recommends NOT using a charger or tender if it has a desulfation mode which cannot be turned off. Shorai has confirmed that the Battery Tender brand does NOT have a desulfation mode and are OK for use with Shorai LFX batteries. However the best possible charger/tender for the Shorai LFX is the Shorai SHO-BMS01 Battery Management System.
fwiw - I still recommend the Size 14 AGM battery for the Tenere and not lithiums, with reasons I've gone into before.
Thank you. This is good information. I had considered Lithium, but this bike is so electrically fickle, that I am staying with the AGM for now.
 
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They recommend a special charger, but I’ve never heard of and none of the information material around my Scorpion Li battery refers to or even mentions a special regulator for a modern bike. Some older bikes with electro mechanical regulators can evidently overcharge though.

Where did you read this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I am having a code 19 issue that is NOT the side stand. I've been checking many issues and still continue to do so. One of my riding buddies suggested a shot alternator. I was also looking at changing over to a Lithium battery. One thing led to another. So while I was looking at other resources for stators, I also ran across Lithium compatible Regulators. Then I began researching that. I tend to rabbit trail across ideas until I find an answer. At this point, I've decided that possible corrosion in my wiring connections could be the culprit. But at the very least, I must elimnate this possibility first before I start digging into the more major electrical components. I've had a major electrical malfunction before on an older analog bike and it was obvious where the melt downs were located. Thank you for your guidance.
 

Clawdog60

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I could possibly be persuaded to a lithium if BMS is built in to balance cell charging. Any battery tender should be able to work then with the BMS. I assume BMS is labeled on the packaging or battery itself.
 

Clawdog60

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That’s why I don’t use those batteries. Charging them is sketchy without a 300 dollar charger. So special regulator is likely but not available
BMS should remedy this then. No special regulator should be needed. This is the first that I have even been aware of an internal balanced charging circuit. Another component with potential to fail. ?
 
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BMS should remedy this then. No special regulator should be needed. This is the first that I have even been aware of an internal balanced charging circuit. Another component with potential to fail. ?
Yep just like a CCT or a brake light switch. BMS is not new tech, don't see there being much issue there
 

Checkswrecks

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I could possibly be persuaded to a lithium if BMS is built in to balance cell charging. Any battery tender should be able to work then with the BMS. I assume BMS is labeled on the packaging or battery itself.
This is NOT the case. You absolutely do not want a tender or other charger that has a sulfidation circuit.

The packaging or battery very well may not be marked as to whether there is an internal BMS but the mfg website will usually say.
 
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Battery internal BMS not new? I have a 17 ktm that came with a lithium battery. I’m pretty sure it had no BMS no special regulator and was a piece of junk from the start.
I said the tech is not new been using BMS chargers in RC cars for 10+ years been using LI type batteries for 15. The Moto market is only the newest one to the table this tech isn't new.

Also you need to make sure your tender is compatible with whatever type battery your running. A AGM battery has a lower full charge voltage than a lead acid. And depending on the amount of cells and the mAH capacity and the C rating of the cells can make a difference of charging voltage and amperge of any Li battery.
 
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