Re: Very hard starting today
if it was a snake......
if it was a snake......HARD START
- Thread starter Dirt_Dad
- Start date
Philistine
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Re: Very hard starting today
yes I bleeding ;D which page out of the 41 pages?
yes I bleeding ;D which page out of the 41 pages?
Re: Very hard starting today
Just for the record...
The Super Tenere has a "tip over" sensor to tell it if the bike has fallen over so it can shut down the fuel pump, ignition system, etc. for safety reasons. This is very common with most all fuel injected bikes these days. With bikes that have such a "tip over" sensor/switch it is very important to cycle the key ignition switch all the way off and then back to on to fully reset this type sensor/switch. Quite often the bike simply will *NOT* re-start when you pick it up because the fuel pump nor ignition will neither one be operational, though all the lights, etc. will.
So remember, if you fall over, re-cycle the key switch before trying to re-start the engine and you will save yourself a lot of cranking, frustration, etc.
Just FYI...
I'd start at page 1... Just like anyone else would have to in order to find the answer for you... ::025::
Dallara
~
bob dirt said:
Just for the record...
The Super Tenere has a "tip over" sensor to tell it if the bike has fallen over so it can shut down the fuel pump, ignition system, etc. for safety reasons. This is very common with most all fuel injected bikes these days. With bikes that have such a "tip over" sensor/switch it is very important to cycle the key ignition switch all the way off and then back to on to fully reset this type sensor/switch. Quite often the bike simply will *NOT* re-start when you pick it up because the fuel pump nor ignition will neither one be operational, though all the lights, etc. will.
So remember, if you fall over, re-cycle the key switch before trying to re-start the engine and you will save yourself a lot of cranking, frustration, etc.
Just FYI...
Philistine said:
I'd start at page 1... Just like anyone else would have to in order to find the answer for you... ::025::
Dallara
~
Philistine
Member
Re: Very hard starting today
Thank you kind sir ::008::
Thank you kind sir ::008::
bob dirt
Member
Re: Very hard starting today
thanks for the info...I had the key turned off as my left leg was exiting the bike...I'm just glad I could pick the pig up being almost in the middle of nowhere and on slippery ground.Dallara said:Just for the record...
The Super Tenere has a "tip over" sensor to tell it if the bike has fallen over so it can shut down the fuel pump, ignition system, etc. for safety reasons. This is very common with most all fuel injected bikes these days. With bikes that have such a "tip over" sensor/switch it is very important to cycle the key ignition switch all the way off and then back to on to fully reset this type sensor/switch. Quite often the bike simply will *NOT* re-start when you pick it up because the fuel pump nor ignition will neither one be operational, though all the lights, etc. will.
So remember, if you fall over, re-cycle the key switch before trying to re-start the engine and you will save yourself a lot of cranking, frustration, etc.
Just FYI...
I'd start at page 1... Just like anyone else would have to in order to find the answer for you... ::025::
Dallara
~
Re: Very hard starting today
Notice that in this photo my S10 headlights are on.
What you don't know is that the engine is not running. So how can my headlights be on?
Yep, that tip-over sensor shut her down. And in my haste to pick her (the Tenere) back up, I had forgotten to turn the key off.
I also missed an important Tenere nap photo. For that, I am eternally ashamed. (Was riding 2-up and let this switchback catch me off guard with my inside foot not being able to touch the ground when I stopped to "pick a line")
My lovely wife enjoyed the heck out of my being humbled. She says it looks good on me. Lol
So it wasn't an official Hard Start. Instead it was a Tip-over sensor reset issue.
Oh, and we made it to the top. FANTASTIC machine that can get you to FANTASTIC places and views.
Notice that in this photo my S10 headlights are on.
What you don't know is that the engine is not running. So how can my headlights be on?
Yep, that tip-over sensor shut her down. And in my haste to pick her (the Tenere) back up, I had forgotten to turn the key off.
I also missed an important Tenere nap photo. For that, I am eternally ashamed. (Was riding 2-up and let this switchback catch me off guard with my inside foot not being able to touch the ground when I stopped to "pick a line")
My lovely wife enjoyed the heck out of my being humbled. She says it looks good on me. Lol
So it wasn't an official Hard Start. Instead it was a Tip-over sensor reset issue.
Oh, and we made it to the top. FANTASTIC machine that can get you to FANTASTIC places and views.
Re: Very hard starting today
Okay, warning that this topic is more than 120 days old. My turn to rejuvenate it and add to it as it gave me the solution when I did a search. Missed PNWSuperbeast's Tech Day because of a non-start. Never happened before. Always fired up after a few turns.
Prime cause was a battery drain, which lead to flooding after I trickle-charged it with the battery tender and tried repeatedly to start it. Here's the sequence of events:
1) I didn't put my battery tender on the bike through the winter because I usually do at least 50 miles every couple of weeks (used it on the emergency generator instead). No problem with the trusty ST up until now (second winter of ownership).
2) I got the bike ready to go to Mike's the night before, including putting my Garmin Montana in the charging mount - but turned off - just the "charging screen" was on in it's dimmed screen mode (showing the battery level indicator).
3) The next morning, I was prepared to go catch the ferry to the peninsula and the ST was dead. Wouldn't even turn over.
4) Put the battery tender on for an hour. After that, it turned over but didn't "catch" (very few fires, if any). Did it for another "hour": same thing, plus now the strong smell of fuel indicating it was flooded. My son suggested that I put it on the center stand, put it in gear, and tried to turn the back wheel to clear the cylinders (found out that a 1200cc bike isn't the same as the old 250 DT1 at our cabin!).
5) Repeated this charge for an hour and repeat again several times until I gave up and decided to leave it until the next morning for the battery tender to fully charge and the fuel to get out of the cylinders.
5) Next morning, I tried it again. A few "firings" but didn't catch and the flooding smell was still there.
6) Went to the forum and searched this topic.
7) Tried WOT. A few firings, but didn't catch
8 ) Pulled the EFI fuse. Turned it over a few times (beats trying to move the back wheel in 1st gear!). It caught and then died (burning off the excess fuel?). Put the fuse in ... and it fired right up!!!! Let it warm up. Turned it off. Tried it in an hour. No problem!!!! Thanks, forum!
Anyway, two battery charging questions, if anyone has an idea:
I) Does anyone know approximately how long it takes I ride time to fully charge a battery (I know this is open-ended, but say from 1/2 depleted)? Is there any rule of thumb on this? I would have thought that riding 50 miles every two weeks would have been enough. Have heard that just idling isn't enough. Is this true?
II) Can a fully-charged GPS in charging mode really deplete a motorcycle battery overnight? I am thinking that it shouldn't and that my battery wasn't fully charged by my occasional winter rides.
As others have said, nice to have done this in my garage so that if it ever is an issue on a forest road .... that EFI fuse trick is great!
Okay, warning that this topic is more than 120 days old. My turn to rejuvenate it and add to it as it gave me the solution when I did a search. Missed PNWSuperbeast's Tech Day because of a non-start. Never happened before. Always fired up after a few turns.
Prime cause was a battery drain, which lead to flooding after I trickle-charged it with the battery tender and tried repeatedly to start it. Here's the sequence of events:
1) I didn't put my battery tender on the bike through the winter because I usually do at least 50 miles every couple of weeks (used it on the emergency generator instead). No problem with the trusty ST up until now (second winter of ownership).
2) I got the bike ready to go to Mike's the night before, including putting my Garmin Montana in the charging mount - but turned off - just the "charging screen" was on in it's dimmed screen mode (showing the battery level indicator).
3) The next morning, I was prepared to go catch the ferry to the peninsula and the ST was dead. Wouldn't even turn over.
4) Put the battery tender on for an hour. After that, it turned over but didn't "catch" (very few fires, if any). Did it for another "hour": same thing, plus now the strong smell of fuel indicating it was flooded. My son suggested that I put it on the center stand, put it in gear, and tried to turn the back wheel to clear the cylinders (found out that a 1200cc bike isn't the same as the old 250 DT1 at our cabin!).
5) Repeated this charge for an hour and repeat again several times until I gave up and decided to leave it until the next morning for the battery tender to fully charge and the fuel to get out of the cylinders.
5) Next morning, I tried it again. A few "firings" but didn't catch and the flooding smell was still there.
6) Went to the forum and searched this topic.
7) Tried WOT. A few firings, but didn't catch
8 ) Pulled the EFI fuse. Turned it over a few times (beats trying to move the back wheel in 1st gear!). It caught and then died (burning off the excess fuel?). Put the fuse in ... and it fired right up!!!! Let it warm up. Turned it off. Tried it in an hour. No problem!!!! Thanks, forum!
Anyway, two battery charging questions, if anyone has an idea:
I) Does anyone know approximately how long it takes I ride time to fully charge a battery (I know this is open-ended, but say from 1/2 depleted)? Is there any rule of thumb on this? I would have thought that riding 50 miles every two weeks would have been enough. Have heard that just idling isn't enough. Is this true?
II) Can a fully-charged GPS in charging mode really deplete a motorcycle battery overnight? I am thinking that it shouldn't and that my battery wasn't fully charged by my occasional winter rides.
As others have said, nice to have done this in my garage so that if it ever is an issue on a forest road .... that EFI fuse trick is great!
Koinz
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Re: Very hard starting today
I had an older gps without its own battery and was left on and it definetely killed my battery overnight. It was also connected straight to the battery, not through the ignition switch. Since then I put my gps on the switched circuit.
I killed my battery last summer by putting the kickstand down while in gear and forgetting to turn off the ignition. I boosted the bike from another rider and road it for a couple of hours and it was fine on the next solo start. I still have the original battery.Salmon Sam said:
I had an older gps without its own battery and was left on and it definetely killed my battery overnight. It was also connected straight to the battery, not through the ignition switch. Since then I put my gps on the switched circuit.
Dirt_Dad
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Re: Very hard starting today
Much to my shock and surprise my wife created an identical hard to start issue with her 2012 Mazda CX9. It had been parked outside overnight in 20 degree temps. The next morning she started it long enough to pull it into the garage then shut it down. Two days later...hard to start. When started it ran like it was flooded. She was very concerned. Once she described it to me, I knew exactly what was happening.
So my thought this is unique to the Tenere is not accurate. Apparently it can happen in other fuel injected engines under similar conditions. Never had seen it before in any of my other cars. Including the 3 other Mazda cars we've owned over the years.
Much to my shock and surprise my wife created an identical hard to start issue with her 2012 Mazda CX9. It had been parked outside overnight in 20 degree temps. The next morning she started it long enough to pull it into the garage then shut it down. Two days later...hard to start. When started it ran like it was flooded. She was very concerned. Once she described it to me, I knew exactly what was happening.
So my thought this is unique to the Tenere is not accurate. Apparently it can happen in other fuel injected engines under similar conditions. Never had seen it before in any of my other cars. Including the 3 other Mazda cars we've owned over the years.
Re: Very hard starting today
Once my battery is even the least bit suspect, I jump it off. Hard start conditions can not stand up to a strong healthy WOT starter. I wish a motorcycle battery had the oompa of a truck battery. This beast just loves having a full shot of 14volts and more cca than it can consume.
I ain't waitin on a trickle when it's time to roll.
Once my battery is even the least bit suspect, I jump it off. Hard start conditions can not stand up to a strong healthy WOT starter. I wish a motorcycle battery had the oompa of a truck battery. This beast just loves having a full shot of 14volts and more cca than it can consume.
I ain't waitin on a trickle when it's time to roll.
Re: Very hard starting today
Amen, brother!!
snakebitten said:
Amen, brother!!
Travex
Lost is my destination.
Re: Very hard starting today
::026::
::026::
EricV
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Re: Very hard starting today
II- Yes, a fully charged GPS is still in the cradle and will draw bike power first, and overnight, oh yeah, dead as a door nail by morning. At idle, you're only getting about break even voltage. You need to be seeing 14V or better to actually charge the battery and that's not happening under 2500 to 3k. I forget exactly where it steps up. I have a Datel Voltmeter on mine and it shows well below 14V when at idle. But once you start riding, it bumps quickly up to 14.2V.
I would suggest a good maintenance charger. I prefer the Optimate 3 which also has a desulfate routine that will run, if needed, and has kept my batteries healthy for many years. My previous bike, a Yamaha FJR, was still running a healthy oem battery after 9 years. The Super Ten is already on it's second battery as I killed the first one by leaving an accessory plugged in, that was turned off, but still drawing "dark current". Over a week the battery was so dead that it wouldn't take a charge. Got a replacement and changed the wiring on the farkle so it was on switched power and completely off when the key was off, no more problem.
I - It takes about 20 minutes of riding above 3k rpms to re-charge a battery to full, just from a normal start discharge. So from 1/2 depleted, at least a couple of hours.Salmon Sam said:
II- Yes, a fully charged GPS is still in the cradle and will draw bike power first, and overnight, oh yeah, dead as a door nail by morning. At idle, you're only getting about break even voltage. You need to be seeing 14V or better to actually charge the battery and that's not happening under 2500 to 3k. I forget exactly where it steps up. I have a Datel Voltmeter on mine and it shows well below 14V when at idle. But once you start riding, it bumps quickly up to 14.2V.
I would suggest a good maintenance charger. I prefer the Optimate 3 which also has a desulfate routine that will run, if needed, and has kept my batteries healthy for many years. My previous bike, a Yamaha FJR, was still running a healthy oem battery after 9 years. The Super Ten is already on it's second battery as I killed the first one by leaving an accessory plugged in, that was turned off, but still drawing "dark current". Over a week the battery was so dead that it wouldn't take a charge. Got a replacement and changed the wiring on the farkle so it was on switched power and completely off when the key was off, no more problem.
Re: Very hard starting today
Great info, Erik. Wonder if I should replace my 2 year-old battery before the summer high country riding?
I have learned my lesson, Snakebitten. Will keep it on the tender and jump start it with the car battery if it ever leaves me stranded again. I read that you can do this as long as you don't have the car running. Anyone have an opinion on that?
I live on a steep hill and was considering jumping the ST. Have done it with smaller dirt bikes a million times, but never this big a bore. Didn't try it because I didn't want to get stuck at the bottom of this hill in case it didn't work. Anyone ever done a rolling jump start of an ST before?
Great info, Erik. Wonder if I should replace my 2 year-old battery before the summer high country riding?
I have learned my lesson, Snakebitten. Will keep it on the tender and jump start it with the car battery if it ever leaves me stranded again. I read that you can do this as long as you don't have the car running. Anyone have an opinion on that?
I live on a steep hill and was considering jumping the ST. Have done it with smaller dirt bikes a million times, but never this big a bore. Didn't try it because I didn't want to get stuck at the bottom of this hill in case it didn't work. Anyone ever done a rolling jump start of an ST before?
EricV
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Re: Very hard starting today
I have not done a rolling start with the ST, but when I owned the FJR, I did it several times, for the same reason as you experienced with the ST. Worked fine, but it does take a long hill for it to stutter and stumble and come to life. IIRC, I used 2nd gear. Just remember all the details, like the kill switch.
I wouldn't replace the battery unless it tests bad or you notice obvious issues. There is no problem jumping from a car, running or not. The bike's draw is never going to exceed what the car puts out. The car is not going to feed the bike any more than it can take. (that's a short and simple answer). Likely you'd never really have a reason to have the car running while jumping a bike though.Salmon Sam said:
I have not done a rolling start with the ST, but when I owned the FJR, I did it several times, for the same reason as you experienced with the ST. Worked fine, but it does take a long hill for it to stutter and stumble and come to life. IIRC, I used 2nd gear. Just remember all the details, like the kill switch.
Re: Very hard starting today
I've tried a push start with a dead battery. (left grip warmers on while I was eating a meal) It acted like it might light. But after 3 attempts, I needed cpr more than the bike did.
And as for jumping, I have jumped it with a Diesel truck running. It has 2 800cca batteries! So I don't think it causes problems.
By the way, I didn't even clamp the positive cable to the Tenere. I just touched the battery post and hit the start button. The bike doesn't need near as much as the car-truck has to offer.
I've tried a push start with a dead battery. (left grip warmers on while I was eating a meal) It acted like it might light. But after 3 attempts, I needed cpr more than the bike did.
And as for jumping, I have jumped it with a Diesel truck running. It has 2 800cca batteries! So I don't think it causes problems.
By the way, I didn't even clamp the positive cable to the Tenere. I just touched the battery post and hit the start button. The bike doesn't need near as much as the car-truck has to offer.
Re: Very hard starting today
Okay.
To continue this: Can you (or should you) jump start through an SAE plug or is it too light duty? And if you can, and you plug in some jumper clamps to connect with the donor battery, how do you keep track of positive (red) and negative (negative) circuits through the SAE plug (flip them?)?
This "Techno-tard" appreciates the remedial lessons so that I can: ::021::
Okay.
To continue this: Can you (or should you) jump start through an SAE plug or is it too light duty? And if you can, and you plug in some jumper clamps to connect with the donor battery, how do you keep track of positive (red) and negative (negative) circuits through the SAE plug (flip them?)?
This "Techno-tard" appreciates the remedial lessons so that I can: ::021::
EricV
Riding, farkling, riding...
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Re: Very hard starting today
If you want to set up a connection for jump starting, you need heavier gauge wire and a connector that is rated for higher amperage. I do know people that have done this on bikes and carry a cable with the other end of the plug on one end and battery clips on the other.
This Guy (Eddie), can make you up a set of 8 or 10 Ga jumper cables with heavy duty SAE connectors for a reasonable price.
Eddie posted this to the LDRider list a while back. He probably won't mind me posting it here.
[quote]I've been making these super heavy duty SAE jumper cables for friends of
mine. I have two extras, uncut. They are 8 gauge and 14ft long. Cut them to
the desired length for the battery side, just long enough to stick out of
the bike and add some battery lugs. Add a set of 50 amp alligator clips to
the other side and voila.
I also have 2 or 3 sets of 10 gauge SAE connectors. These sets are slick,
one cable is about a foot long with battery lugs, this is what mounts to
the bike, the other cable is also about a foot long and the end has a set
of crimp connectors. In order to turn them into jumper cables you just pick
up a set of cheap mini or motorcycle jumper cables, remove the alligator
clamps form one end and crimp them onto this.
If you have a bike whose battery in tough to get to then these are really
neat.
Of course they also work well for your battery tender, heated gear
connection (with adapter), tire pump, e.t.c.
$40 for the 8 gauge 14ft cables
$20 for the 10 gauge 2 piece set.
[/quote]
If you want to roll your own, just get some of [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOR74201-Mini-Quick-Disconnect-Battery-Set-/151211305914]THESE[/url] and some 50 amp alligator clips and go for it.
No. You can trickle charge or use a maintenance charger via a small wire gauge SAE plug connection, but not jump start. Jump start is a big current draw and will melt small gauge wire insulation and do Bad Things™ quickly. They do make heavy duty SAE connectors for 8 and 10 Ga wire that could be used this way.Salmon Sam said:
If you want to set up a connection for jump starting, you need heavier gauge wire and a connector that is rated for higher amperage. I do know people that have done this on bikes and carry a cable with the other end of the plug on one end and battery clips on the other.
This Guy (Eddie), can make you up a set of 8 or 10 Ga jumper cables with heavy duty SAE connectors for a reasonable price.
Eddie posted this to the LDRider list a while back. He probably won't mind me posting it here.
[quote]I've been making these super heavy duty SAE jumper cables for friends of
mine. I have two extras, uncut. They are 8 gauge and 14ft long. Cut them to
the desired length for the battery side, just long enough to stick out of
the bike and add some battery lugs. Add a set of 50 amp alligator clips to
the other side and voila.
I also have 2 or 3 sets of 10 gauge SAE connectors. These sets are slick,
one cable is about a foot long with battery lugs, this is what mounts to
the bike, the other cable is also about a foot long and the end has a set
of crimp connectors. In order to turn them into jumper cables you just pick
up a set of cheap mini or motorcycle jumper cables, remove the alligator
clamps form one end and crimp them onto this.
If you have a bike whose battery in tough to get to then these are really
neat.
Of course they also work well for your battery tender, heated gear
connection (with adapter), tire pump, e.t.c.
$40 for the 8 gauge 14ft cables
$20 for the 10 gauge 2 piece set.
[/quote]
If you want to roll your own, just get some of [url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOR74201-Mini-Quick-Disconnect-Battery-Set-/151211305914]THESE[/url] and some 50 amp alligator clips and go for it.
Re: Very hard starting today
Thanks, Eric. The ST battery is pretty simple to get to, though. They make the cowling pretty easy to move with 4 hex screw twists. Sounds like just a motorcycle jumper cable would be fine. Don't expect this to be needed to often (if ever again!). Will carry though to help out others (Beemers, KTM's, etc) ::025::
Thanks, Eric. The ST battery is pretty simple to get to, though. They make the cowling pretty easy to move with 4 hex screw twists. Sounds like just a motorcycle jumper cable would be fine. Don't expect this to be needed to often (if ever again!). Will carry though to help out others (Beemers, KTM's, etc) ::025::
whisperquiet
Well-Known Member
Re: Very hard starting today
For the first time, I had the hard start problem after 21,500 miles on a 2012 S10 (sold last Feb/2013)) and 13,500 miles on my current 2013 S10.
The scenario: I installed the recall wiring harness on my 2013 S10, started the bike up for 10-15 seconds to verify the headlights were working after installing the new harness, and the next day the bike would not start.
I tried the WOT procedure to no avail and was ready to let the bike sit and ride my TRUSTY stone age KLR when I disabled the clutch safety switch (via an installed on/off switch) and the bike started instantly!! I don't kow if the clutch bypass influenced anything, but the bike started.
I normally never, ever, never, ever start a bike I won't be riding and the S10 got me when I violated this personal rule this one time..................YMMV
For the first time, I had the hard start problem after 21,500 miles on a 2012 S10 (sold last Feb/2013)) and 13,500 miles on my current 2013 S10.
The scenario: I installed the recall wiring harness on my 2013 S10, started the bike up for 10-15 seconds to verify the headlights were working after installing the new harness, and the next day the bike would not start.
I tried the WOT procedure to no avail and was ready to let the bike sit and ride my TRUSTY stone age KLR when I disabled the clutch safety switch (via an installed on/off switch) and the bike started instantly!! I don't kow if the clutch bypass influenced anything, but the bike started.
I normally never, ever, never, ever start a bike I won't be riding and the S10 got me when I violated this personal rule this one time..................YMMV