Hard start has me thinking

[JackN]

Today I pulled my S10 out of the garage to enjoy a rare November bonus day of warm temps and sunshine here in New England. Unfortunately, today was also the day that my bike once again decided to go through another "hard start" scenario. I took me nearly an hour just to get the damn bike running. This is probably the fourth time this has happened to me in a year and a half. It was extremely frustrating to be dealing with this knowing that today was likely the last day of warm weather that we'll see for awhile in this part of the country.
I traded in my Multistrada for the Yamaha last year because I was getting tired of dealing with the "character" that sometimes comes with European bike ownership. The thing is, although my Ducati did need several trips to the dealer to handle various warranty issues, it never refused to start or left me stranded.
Even before this last hard starting episode, recently I have really been missing the Multi. As good a bike as the S10 is, it just doesn't deliver the kind of riding experience that the Ducati offers. I'm pretty surprised to be saying this, but I'm seriously considering selling the Yamaha to buy another Multistrada. I'm not going to rush into anything, and I plan to try and address the hard starting situation with my dealer before doing anything, but unless I can find a conclusive solution to this issue, I think it's time for a new motorcycle.

 

[markjenn]

How have you been addressing a "hard start" to date? My observation is that if the flooding condition is recognized early, it is fairly easy to solve, but if you persist in trying to do a closed-throttle start for very long, you can get it in a pretty deep hole that's very hard to climb out of, especially with a bike that has a less-than-fresh battery and/or worn plugs. I've had four occurrences in three years and my protocol is that if the bike doesn't start normally within five seconds of closed throttle cranking, I immediately go WOT where it always starts within another 5-10 seconds of cranking.

If you can't find a workaround, I would be moving on too. If you truly require a "conclusive solution", I think you'll be selling as this is something that has been going on for three years with a lot of people looking at it with no solution or definitive answer on the horizon. Yamaha hasn't even acknowledged the problem exists. The dealers are generally clueless.

- Mark

 

[JackN]

I haven't found the WOT method to be very effective for me. Even after an extensive amount of cranking, nothing seems to change. Not to mention that connecting jumper cables to my truck is necessary to prevent killing my S10 battery.
During this latest episode, pulling the EFI system fuse was what did the trick. Even after doing that it still took a lot of cranking to get the thing running. Had I been on the road without a power source to run jumper cables to, I would have been screwed.

 

[EricV]

There are a couple of points to remember when the hard start issue hits you.

First, SHUT OFF THE KEY. Yes, because your lights are on and you're sucking down the battery voltage. Don't just keep cranking. Key off, then try again with WOT or at least half throttle. As has been said, do this right away, not after repeated cranking attempts.

Second, depending on how much fuel has gotten in on top of the pistons, you're washing down the cylinder walls and have lost compression. It will be extremely difficult to get enough compression to fire the bike if you continue to add fuel. Either let it sit for a while, or pull the injection fuse, crank until it pops, then re-install the fuse and try again. Remember step ONE, shut the key off between attempts.

I have had this a few times. Yes, it's frustrating. Twice, I knew exactly what I did to cause the problem. Fired up the bike to test a farkle addition and shut it down before full warm up. The third time, I was on a long trip and the bike was being parked outside. Woke up to rain that had been coming down all night, temps in the low 40s. Pulled the cover off, fired the bike up, packed the last bits, hopped on and dropped it into gear.... crap, stalled it because the side stand was down. Didn't want to fire, AND I was a dumb ass and forgot step ONE, shut the key off. I shut off the bike and had a really fun time pushing a fully loaded bike up hill in a gravel parking lot to the hwy. We were on top of a pass, so I walked down in each direction, trying to see which way had the best slope. Dreading the possibility that it wouldn't fire, then I'd be on a busy hwy in the rain with a dead bike.

By the time I walked back to the bike, it had sat for a bit, so I tried one more time. Guess what? With the sitting, and the key off, so starting w/o headlights on, it came to life. I was really careful not to kill it before it warmed up after that.

 

[offcamber]

I can't say I have had the issue where I couldn't get to start after 2or three tries.....But my method is like what most do if it doesn't fire in the first few seconds, I stop ...open it up half way and crank it...if it sputters I just stay on the throttle till it fires. I have about 12k Miles on mine with the only maintance being oil changes.

Seems some bikes have it worse than others...

 

[EricV]

Seems some bikes have it worse than others...

Perhaps. I believe it's not the bike, but the owners and what we do in our routines that sets things up for a hard start. This issue first comes up after someone washes the bike, fires it up briefly to run it back into the garage, then shuts it off. That typically creates this thread on forums for other Yamaha products too. Learning what not to do goes a long way in avoiding a hard start. As learning what to do and when, makes it less of an issue if it does happen.

 

[JackN]

Perhaps. I believe it's not the bike, but the owners and what we do in our routines that sets things up for a hard start.

In this case I had taken the bike for a short tour. I had trailered the bike to VA, rode @ 600 miles over two days. Weather turned to shit so we ended the ride early, loaded it back up and trailered the bike home to CT. I rolled the bike off the trailer, started it up and ran it to get it up the gravel driveway. It sat in the garage for 9 days plugged into it's tender. When I tried to start it, it almost fired but didn't. That's when the fun began.
I suppose the fact that I only ran the bike for a minute or two as I unloaded from my trailer is the cause of this round's frustration. But seriously, if you can't start the damn thing and run it for just a few minutes to move it around for fear of it not starting again, something is definitely wrong.

 

[Z06]

Perhaps. I believe it's not the bike, but the owners and what we do in our routines that sets things up for a hard start. This issue first comes up after someone washes the bike, fires it up briefly to run it back into the garage, then shuts it off. That typically creates this thread on forums for other Yamaha products too. Learning what not to do goes a long way in avoiding a hard start. As learning what to do and when, makes it less of an issue if it does happen.

I have a dozen or so hard starts in 69000 miles. Never after shutting off before warm and restarting. And I have done this many times. Also have no problem cycling key on and off when working on bike. No problem when sitting in rain or after washing bike.
Mine occur after bike has been sitting for four or five days or longer. It's something besides operator error. None of my other bikes have done this with same operator.

 

[Dogdaze]

Maybe it's a S10 thing? I have owned bikes since I was able to, at least 35 years, and have never experienced this ( and not yet on the S10, but only having owned it 3 months doesn't count), with carb'd or injected bikes. I have a straight through VZ1600 that sucks fuel when cold, and has never ever flooded so that I cannot start it within 2 seconds of hitting the button, it runs so rich when cold that I cannot run it in the garage 'cos of the fumes. But It has not had an issue even electrical farkling and ignition on off for hours.

 

[cosmic]

^^ I couldn't agree more.

 

[fredz43]

I suppose the fact that I only ran the bike for a minute or two as I unloaded from my trailer is the cause of this round's frustration. But seriously, if you can't start the damn thing and run it for just a few minutes to move it around for fear of it not starting again, something is definitely wrong.

That scenario will normally cause this problem, Jack, and we have learned not to do the "short run when cold" thing. I have been told by FJR owners that this has happened to them also, so I suppose it is a Yamaha thing. Didn't have this with 3 fuel injected ST1300's nor with the many fuel injected cars I have had, but the S10's are subject to it. I learned after 1 occurrence in 40,000 miles of owning 2 S10's, so I don't do that anymore. Reminds me of the old joke on the Hee Haw tv program where the guy tells the doctor "Doc, it hurts when I do that" and the doctor says "well then, don't do that". ;D

 

[JackN]

Obviously there is an issue with this bike and Yamaha has to know about it even if they aren't willing to acknowledge it. It's extremely frustrating to me when a manufacturer won't address a known issue. When it comes right down to it, this really isn't a huge deal, but for me it is a very annoying one. I purchased this motorcycle because I was looking forward to the "Japanese reliability" I hoped it would provide.
A friend of mine says that he only buys motorcycles that "stir his soul". That notion does not describe my feeling toward the S10. I like this bike but I don't love it. I'm not intending to be critical of the bike or anyone else who owns one, but for me the bike is just "OK". I guess my decision is whether or not I like it enough to deal with this annoyance. I just wish it was riding season so I could get out on the road with the bike, instead of being stuck inside dwelling on whether or not to keep it.

 

[markjenn]

Obviously there is an issue with this bike and Yamaha has to know about it even if they aren't willing to acknowledge it. It's extremely frustrating to me when a manufacturer won't address a known issue. When it comes right down to it, this really isn't a huge deal, but for me it is a very annoying one. I purchased this motorcycle because I was looking forward to the "Japanese reliability" I hoped it would provide.
A friend of mine says that he only buys motorcycles that "stir his soul". That notion does not describe my feeling toward the S10. I like this bike but I don't love it. I'm not intending to be critical of the bike or anyone else who owns one, but for me the bike is just "OK". I guess my decision is whether or not I like it enough to deal with this annoyance. I just wish it was riding season so I could get out on the road with the bike, instead of being stuck inside dwelling on whether or not to keep it.

I understand your frustration, but I'd try and take a larger view. All bikes have glitches, even very reliable Yamahas. This is an annoying one, but if you can work around it, like most of us have, it isn't usually much of an issue. Like I said, I've had it happen four times, but only once in the last two years, and it has never been anything other than a minor annoyance. I've taken my S10 on tens of long multi-day trips and it always starts without the slightest issue. The only time I've had the problem is in my garage. But people's experiences do seem to vary a lot and if yours can't be worked around, I certainly would go get something else. That's why I asked what your experience was with how long you tried starting with the standard procedure. If simply going WOT a little earlier in the process solves the issue, then simply do that.

As to Yamaha's response, I'm not surprised they are not acknowledging it. It's a glitch that has no safety angle and the fix (if Yamaha has one - they probably don't) would likely require that Yamaha re-certify the bike for emissions in every market and to have every bike in the field having its ECU replaced, something that would wipe out every dime of profit Yamaha has made with the S10. If it was something very simple, I think Yamaha would have fixed it during the 2012-2013 production run and it appears they didn't. I wouldn't expect any vehicle mfg to do differently. As much as we all like to think that our brand is better than the next, it reality, they all behave pretty similarly when the chips are down.

An interesting angle is whether this glitch has propagated to the 2014's and later. I think we've had one instance, but this probably isn't definitive.

- Mark

 

[longride]

It's simple. Don't start the bike and then shut it off without a good warmup. Just don't do it. EVER. I did it once after an oil change and got the 'hard start' right after. It didn't start immediately, I shut key off and I went to the WOT technique and it started after 3 tries. Never did it once after that in 2 years of riding it every day because I don't EVER start it without riding it. It's really not a big deal if you know the cause. If it really bugs you not to do that, get a different bike with 10 times the problems. That'll fix it!

Maybe get yourself one of them reliable Beemers!

http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=51563

 

[Big Blu]

I had the cold start issue maybe 10-11 times in 2 years and 26K miles. Always a cold star after sitting in the garage for at least 4 hours, usually overnight. On all occasions the WOT technique and a 20 second crank brought the motor to life.

It's a strange situation that seems to defy reasoning. Of course there are many theories but no factual conclusion just antidotal evidence.


Paul

 

[snakebitten]

In this most recent case, I would say the bigger problem is actually the owner NOT being S10-smitten.

If he was, the hard-start would be far less painful.

Folks who have a bike they are deeply bonded to, put up with far more serious issues than the S10's loose spokes, head light harness, and hard starts. I know, because I still have my KTM 950.

No comparison between reliability and confidence in cross country runs far from home.

The good news is there is likely some bike that can grab you JackN. And it sounds like the Multistrada is back on your radar, although the first one got away for some reason.

Good luck.

 

[eemsreno]

My bike has never had the "hard start" I follow the rules though.
Still on the original battery.
Has never been on any kind of charger.
I think I got a keeper.
I wouldn't say "I love my bike" it's just a bike.
I save the word love for my wife, kids and totally awesome grand daughter.

Steve

 

[Donk]

JackN if you like the bike better or worse than another bike is a totally personal thing. You got to go with what works for you. As far as the hard start thing my '14 did it a couple of times when new but as the mileage increases the hard starts have not been an issue. One thing I determined is that the S10 is VERY sensitive to bad or poor quality gas. Yamaha makes a fuel treatment, probably no different than any other, but every once in a while I throw some of that in the bike. Ethanol is some scary stuff and for some reason my S10 seems more sensitive to fuel quality than other bikes. How old was the gas in your bike? How full was the tank when it was sitting? May be a contributing factor to your hard starts.

 

[eemsreno]

Donk

I have had just the opposite experience with my bike.
It runs the same on 87 octane 10 percent corn or premium.
I have never put in any kind of fuel additive.
I almost allways just run 87.
Once I had to use 85.5 in Utah and it ran perfect.
I try to start putting premium in this time of year as it might sit for weeks or months of bad weather.

 

[autoteach]

Is there any way just to stop the development of so many threads of hard start, leave it to one with all the information condensed to the very start of the thread and then just move the start up threads on the topic to the bottom page of that thread? I just dont see the reason for another thread on this, oil, or tires.