Handlebar front brake switches / Cruise Enable / Rear Brake Light

[mebgardner]

No joy...... :'(
On a ride today and the cruise worked perfectly for 230kms then quit, same flashing light and code 90.
I restarted and it quit twice again in the next 150 kms. The first time it quit I was riding through a town with numerous stops and just happened to look down and saw it flashing. The second time I saw it begin flashing as I pulled the front brake, and the third time it began flashing on its own without touching either brake.
I'm beginning to think this is a software issue, considering all the work and parts that Sigeye has thrown at his bike. There is what? 5 of us right now with the same problem, Sigeye, Bigbob, Eville Rich, Mebgardner and myself. I've been here only a year but the Gen 2 has been around 4 years so why are there 5 of us now and none before this?

I've got the cycle back today, but have not yet checked the codes. I'm bushed...

Based on this report, I intend to have a very careful look at the dual switches in the brake lever housing. With a good ol' Simpson type ohmmeter (relatively low ohms / volt, great for switch contacts), and a bit of patience to see if one or both are intermittent. I'm pretty certain that my woes are in there, somewhere.

My .02: I would not have shot any "contact cleaner" in there, just cause there was an access hole. I know you mean well, but I (me) would not have done it. I have a radar tech license from the FCC type skill level. I'm authorized to repair TV station level equipment, and airport radar sets. Your CB?, childs play to me. I mention this humbly so you can gauge my skill level of what I'm saying, that's all.

 

[gv550]

My .02: I would not have shot any "contact cleaner" in there, just cause there was an access hole. I know you mean well, but I (me) would not have done it. I have a radar tech license from the FCC type skill level. I'm authorized to repair TV station level equipment, and airport radar sets. Your CB?, childs play to me. I mention this humbly so you can gauge my skill level of what I'm saying, that's all.

Agreed. In hindsight it may have been the contact cleaner that caused the plastic plunger to become sticky in its bore. But at the time I didn't know what was in there, and was grasping for any solution. As it turns out the 2 micro-switches are themselves quite well sealed with a rubber boot over the plunger and wires molded to the housings.
Something else to consider while you are probing around with your ohm meter, both switches appear to be normally open which contradicts their function. The brake switch should be open, then close as the lever is pulled to complete a circuit and send power to the brake lamp. But the cruise cancel switch should be closed to complete the circuit while riding then go open when the lever is pulled to kill cruise. I expect the cruise switch is just sending a (any) signal to the ECU and the ECU then kills cruise. Same is happening on the clutch side, both normally open switches when you'd think the cruise would be closed until pulling the lever.
I'll be waiting to hear what you find, meanwhile I'm working on a manual reset button to push to kill power to the cruise circuit, then reconnect power. Much safer than turning the key off and on while riding...............

 

[mebgardner]

I had some time to look at this issue on my cycle, more closely today.

The 30,000 foot view is, the problem is still there after my cleaning of the front brake switch / plunger mechanism, and... I have a "smoking gun" about why I still have my problem. I can hear a relay under the gas tank "chatter" while pulling / releasing the lever. The relay "chatter" noise is in sync with a "click" sound from the rearward most switch in the front brake switch assembly. The rear brake light illumination on / off is also in sync with the rearward most switch, so I think I have a relay under the tank that controls (switches) the rear brake light.

That's the 30,000 foot view, now for the details.

I pulled the front brake lever switch housing, and disassembled it. I saw nothing out of the ordinary, and very little dirt. No plastic "ledges", or gouges, or "chad" (remember chad in the election?). Nothing in there, except a very small amount of binding of the two plastic, sliding, spring loaded plunger assemblies. A dry application of Teflon, and reassemble everything. (Note: Have a big, clear plastic bag on-hand, and re-assemble inside it. The last spring is tricky, and took me 5 tries to get it in place. It would be very easy to launch it into the yard or shop).

I considered testing the switches by poking needles into the wiring, because these two switches are sealed up *tight*. There's no getting at wiring easily here. I will need to go further into the harness, to their cable ends, to test them. They offer up a clear, distinct "click" noise with each push, and sounded OK. These switches may still be implicated, but I gave them a "pass", for the time being.

Reassemble, and wrap assembly loosely with electrical tape to seal assembly upper / lower "gap" space. Loosely because of all the various angles, to seal them. Pulling the tape tight would expose the edges, lifting from the angles. Then, Re-install it onto the lever.

No Love, it's still there.

Now, I can hear the switches "click" as I pull the lever. Second, rear-most switch: On, Off, On, Off... Brake light On, Off, On... "chatter" from the relay. Huh!?? Oh... the switch appears to "bounce", if you're familiar with the term.

OK, try the foot brake pedal. On, Off, On... "chatter". Hmmmm. I spend the rest of my time pulling the rear brake switches, to examine them. They're of the "slide" variety, with two separate slide switches down there. Both engage / disengage at approximately the same time. We already know this...

They're not dirty per-se, but slightly "greasy" from some OEM lube in there. The slide path appears to be OK, but again, greasy. There is a long term issue in here. The wiring is being crimped by the plastic switch housing "lid", the plastic cap on top of the assembly. It's biting into the wiring insulation pretty aggressively, but it's not my problem today. I move on...

... to call it a night.

There's a relay chatter, sounding very much like a bouncing switch reaction. It appears to be associated with the rear brake light and brake switches. I'm wondering if there is a defective switch, or a defective relay, or more than one defective part here.

More to come.

 

[Crew Chief]

I have looked at the drawing attempting to understand this circuit a couple of times and I'm still a bit confused by it. I will likely post some questions asking for assistance in understanding it in a day or so. That's kinda funny because I can't remember the last time I needed help reading a basic electrical schematic. The bottom line is that there is indeed a relay there. The circuit that goes through the clutch and the brake switches is the trigger for that relay. The power for the switched output comes in on a brown wire from the lighting circuit and the output has 2 branches. One goes to the tail light and the other to the ABS ECU.

The stop light and the cruise control fuses are away from the others and they are each only 1A circuits. They both get their power from the lighting circuit on the same brown wire. An unusual way to do that. Both of them are obviously intended to be no more than triggering circuits for both the relay and for something inside the ECU which could be more relay's but we'll likely never know.

I've found a lot of bad grounds causing relays to chatter of over the years and a several bad relays. I just recently found for the first time in over thirty years of doing this stuff, a case low trigger voltage that just wasn't quite enough to pull it. I fixed it with a bigger wire with less voltage drop.

You guys seem to be quite thorough. I'll bet you nail it.

 

[mebgardner]

Thanks for the vote of confidence

I checked battery and case ground connections / bolts, first thing...

 

[mebgardner]

Found the problem. The brake switch in the assembly on the front handlebar brake lever. That brake switch exhibits "switching bounce".

It's absolutely the problem, and replacing it is the only solution. I'm on my way to the dealership to find out if they'll replace under warranty, if I bring in just the part and demonstrate the problem while standing in front of them (with using my meter).

My Simpson has an analog mechanical meter movement. It's very easy to demonstrate the intermittent issue. Remove assembly wiring from harness (traces to the plugs inside a rubber boot behind / inside right side loom). Hook up meter across the two green terminals. Push, Release, Push, Release... Watch meter needle "bounce" mid-swing.

With 4 of these switches on the handlebars, I'm now concerned about reliability issues. I have 3700 miles on the odo...

More to follow.

 

[Nikolajsen]

Thank you for this information ::008::

 

[Checkswrecks]

Thanks Gardner!

 

[Crew Chief]

...
My Simpson has an analog mechanical meter movement. It's very easy to demonstrate the intermittent issue. Remove assembly wiring from harness (traces to the plugs inside a rubber boot behind / inside right side loom). Hook up meter across the two green terminals. Push, Release, Push, Release... Watch meter needle "bounce" mid-swing.

With 4 of these switches on the handlebars, I'm now concerned about reliability issues. I have 3700 miles on the odo...

More to follow.

Good news. I'm assuming that this would have been difficult to impossible to see with a typical DVOM?

...
Something else to consider while you are probing around with your ohm meter, both switches appear to be normally open which contradicts their function. The brake switch should be open, then close as the lever is pulled to complete a circuit and send power to the brake lamp. But the cruise cancel switch should be closed to complete the circuit while riding then go open when the lever is pulled to kill cruise. I expect the cruise switch is just sending a (any) signal to the ECU and the ECU then kills cruise. Same is happening on the clutch side, both normally open switches when you'd think the cruise would be closed until pulling the lever.

I'll be waiting to hear what you find, meanwhile I'm working on a manual reset button to push to kill power to the cruise circuit, then reconnect power. Much safer than turning the key off and on while riding...............

This post is heavily edited to reflect my current understanding of the system.

I am (or was) confused by this as well, but from looking at the drawing rather than poking around on the bike. The way I read this drawing, the clutch switch (#26) for the CC circuit (CCC) is NC and the switch for the starting circuit is NO. That is as I would expect. On the drawing all of the CCC switches are in series, and with the throttle(#96) off idle, the ECU should be be getting voltage from this circuit. Closing the throttle or activating the clutch or either brake switch would open that circuit and disengage the CC.

I (was) quite confused when it comes to the Brake Light Circuit (BLC). The drawing shows the two brake switches (#24 & 25) to both be NC and in series. I didn't see how that could be. The brake light relay (#97) would never get power. The drawing doesn't make this real clear, but I believe the relay is powered to the open position. Activating any of the switches in the circuit causes an open releasing the relay and turning on the light. This is a good fail safe system. Losing power turns on the brake light, and probably arms the ABS. The Drawing also shows the the BLC is inter connected with the CCC at both switches in the closed position. This offers redundancy on the supply side of the circuit. This could cause confusion when probing the switches. From examining the bike, gv550 thought both circuits were NO and that confused me further. It turns out that his understanding was from the wording on the diagnostic test screens.

If anyone sees an error in the above, please point it out. The drawing is attached for perusal.

Attached for educational purposes:

 

[gv550]

Crew chief, you may be correct re: normally open or closed switches. I didn't check any of them with DVOM nor did I risk ruining my eyes reading the schematic but I was going by the dash display while running the onboard diagnostic. There is a check for each brake switch (4), the clutch cancel switch, the SET and RESUME switch, throttle switch, gear shift and all of them display OFF when in the relaxed mode and ON when appropriate action is taken. I figure OFF means open, but maybe not.
Further to the issue with my cruise, I'm getting nowhere with my dealer to the point of where he doesn't return my calls. The bike was under warranty when I first took it in for this repair and all they did was clear the code and send me home, not impressed considering they are a Yamaha 5 star dealer, I'm off warranty now and it appears I'm on my own.
I'm waiting to hear if a new switch fixes mebgardener 's bike then I may try it too. Sigeye did replace his switch, more than once I think, and it didn't cure his bike.

 

[Crew Chief]

Well, I think I have he answer and I have edited my last post (and now this one) to reflect my current understanding of the system. The idea that the relay was powered open had occurred to me earlier and I foolishly dismissed it. Activating either brake switch opens the circuit, allowing the relay contacts to close and turn on the light. The ABS ECU loses power on that wire as well which probably arms the system. It's a wonderful fail safe method that avoids paralleled or three way circuits to turn the light on.

gv550, I really don't like that you aren't getting good support from the dealer on this. I hope there's a work order from your visit before the warranty ran out. Whether there is or isn't, I think I would call Yamaha Canada next week if he doesn't become responsive and explain the situation and see what they are willing to do. I would also let them know that you're aware of other bikes with the same problem. I'd like to think that Mother Yamaha could put some more resources into this. Right now I'm thinking that maybe one of those switches is not quite right (design wise) and most of us wouldn't catch it the way we are checking them. Time will tell. Good Luck.

 

[gv550]

Update on my situation, my dealer has been reviewing this with Yamaha and he assures me my cruise will be repaired and at no cost to me. First step is replace the front switch, it is ordered and scheduled to be installed on Friday.

 

[Nikolajsen]

Update on my situation, my dealer has been reviewing this with Yamaha and he assures me my cruise will be repaired and at no cost to me. First step is replace the front switch, it is ordered and scheduled to be installed on Friday.

::026:: ::008::

 

[mebgardner]

Update on my situation, my dealer has been reviewing this with Yamaha and he assures me my cruise will be repaired and at no cost to me. First step is replace the front switch, it is ordered and scheduled to be installed on Friday.

That sounds like progress. Good!

You do not say which front switch. You have two there: one on the clutch lever, and one on the brake lever. Which, please?

 

[gv550]

Brake

 

[mebgardner]

I (was) quite confused when it comes to the Brake Light Circuit (BLC). The drawing shows the two brake switches (#24 & 25) to both be NC and in series. I didn't see how that could be. The brake light relay (#97) would never get power. The drawing doesn't make this real clear, but I believe the relay is powered to the open position. Activating any of the switches in the circuit causes an open releasing the relay and turning on the light. This is a good fail safe system. Losing power turns on the brake light, and probably arms the ABS. The Drawing also shows the the BLC is inter connected with the CCC at both switches in the closed position. This offers redundancy on the supply side of the circuit. This could cause confusion when probing the switches.

This is borne out by my experience with the now removed lever brake switch assembly. The brake lights now remain illuminated full-time with the assembly removed. I thought: "I'll go for a short ride..." Nope, no brake light change!

Another tip: It's possible to get the rear foot brake mud guard on "upside down" due to the mounting bracket being installed on the rear brake assembly incorrectly. It "looks right" at installation, until you go to use the rear brake, and suddenly you discover that the rear brake is full on, and wont let go...

Oops!

 

[mebgardner]

Brake

Got it. OK, there's something else to consider here, to keep in your hip pocket as you proceed.

CrewChief has identified an interaction between the BLC and the CCC. My issue is, I'm fighting one anomaly at the moment (a relay chatter), but you may be fighting more than one. What will compound this problem, is now you will be working "behind" someone else's work, you're now second in line. From years of working electronics on bench troubleshooting behind someone else's work (and mistakes), this usually compounds the problems faced by the currently working tech.

The message here is, we will likely need excruciating detail to sort it out here. Please be patient with us (with me) as I attempt to assist you sorting it out. It's complicated by the switch circuit interactions of all these switches, and the "working behind someone else" problems.

One last point: Just because someone replaces something, does not man it's fixed, working correctly. I can screw it up on installation, or put in another defective part and think it's OK because it's "new".

 

[mebgardner]

I'm assuming that this would have been difficult to impossible to see with a typical DVOM?

Yes, very difficult. It would be relatively easy to mis-intepret the momentary change in numeric ohms value being displayed.

In counterpoint, it's very difficult to mis-intepret the momentary "wiggle" of the needle, interrupting a smooth arc swing, from infinite to 0 ohms.

If I was someone who did not do this for a wage, I know which I would want for this particular chore.

There's a good reason to keep a mechanical meter movement in your tool box (and Yam shows this type in he service manual), but do not try to take it on-trail. They will break at the most inopportune time. "Doh! It worked the *last* time I used it!"

 

[mebgardner]

I've "jumped ship" on this thread, and have picked up / continued debugging over here:

http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=22686.165

... at around post 170 thereabouts.