Cooked Headlamp Harness

[twinrider]

Well, after ~ 30k miles since the last replacement, both my left and right headlight connectors have started to cook again.

Called the dealer, and parts are now on order.

Chris

Stock connectors? When did you have them changed the first time around?

 

[sail2xxs]

Yes, these were the stock connectors. First replacement at 20,069 miles (right side), second at 54,002 miles (right side), 3rd at 67,538 miles (left side). This is the first time that both are starting to cook at about the same rate. The bike has been going through headlight bulbs at an unusually high rate since the extra ground was installed. I've taken to keeping two spares in my pannier. It's a good thing that Walmarts are open 24/7, and the bulbs are only $10!

I think the extra ground wire made a difference in balancing the load.

Chris

 

[Travex]

You're quite the repeat offender! That's very unfortunate yet an excellent insight into the problem. With histories such as yours exemplifying the problem so well it's becoming more difficult for me to understand how Yamaha is so reluctant to acknowledge this problem. It's not like the beast has developed a squeak... It's that it could (and does) go totally blind while riding. I'd think that would be motivation enough for a recall/redesign for the harness. Granted, we could all make a heftitier harness, but that's not quite the point is it?

Good luck to you sir.

 

[twinrider]

Yes, these were the stock connectors. First replacement at 20,069 miles (right side), second at 54,002 miles (right side), 3rd at 67,538 miles (left side). This is the first time that both are starting to cook at about the same rate. The bike has been going through headlight bulbs at an unusually high rate since the extra ground was installed. I've taken to keeping two spares in my pannier. It's a good thing that Walmarts are open 24/7, and the bulbs are only $10!

I think the extra ground wire made a difference in balancing the load.

Chris

Interesting because I heard that Yamaha was producing new connectors (under the same part number) that didn't have the protruding plastic insulation that was causing the poor connection.

 

[Travex]

Did you verify through visual inspection that the new connectors are exactly the same as the old ones with the same insulator overlap?

Sorry, I failed to answer your question in my earlier reply. Yes, I did confirm that the overlap was present. The dealer had relieved that excess material at my request and had "packed" the connector with dielectric grease. Upon smelling the burnt electrical odor so soon after replacement in concert with sail2xx's experience, there's little doubt in my mind that ill be left in the dark sooner than later.

 

[sail2xxs]

Travex,

I have had the beast go totally blind twice - most recently was last December, about 2 hours before dawn. Fortunately I have the Baja Designs Squadron lights as a backup. Unfortunately for the other traffic on the road, after unsuccessfully trying 4 dimmer modules provided by Baja, the Squadrons only work on full power. Once the sun had come up enough that my fingers would work (temps were in the 20s) and I could see what I was doing, I tinkered with the charred connector until one of them started working again. It got me home (another 1300 miles).

The prior occurence was totally bizarre - I was on I-95 outside Mystic Connecticut and both headlights went out simultaneously. This was particularly inconvenient, since I really needed to get home to Maryland, and it was around 2100 on a Saturday. Plenty of traffic, and lots of cars honking to let me know that my lights were out. I didn't have auxiliary lighting then, so ended up at the next auto parts store, picked up replacement bulbs, and discovered that the bulbs were not the issue. Checked all the connections, followed the wiring harness, checked the fuses, and everything appeared to be fine. Got a hotel, waited until the following morning, and went to a Yamaha dealer - the only dealer I have ever known to be open on a Sunday! The tech couldn't figure out what was happening either, and suggested I just try to get home before dark. I started the bike, and for no reason either one of us could fathom, both headlights came on and everything was fine. This particular issue has never reoccurred.

I realize that I could get ceramic connectors or an entire aftermarket wiring harness for the lights but several things keep me from doing this. 1) I think Yamaha should address this issue, not the owner. In their defense, Yamaha has been excellent in this aspect. 2) First occurrence was during the regular one year warranty, and as I understand it, warranty parts are covered for a year on their own. 3) I have the 4 year YES coverage. 4) I'm stubborn. 5) Each time it has happened, I am hopeful it will be the last.

With respect to the hard start issue, I have been fortunate to date - 95K miles and the bike has always started and is still on the original battery.

Chris

 

[EricV]

Travex,

I have had the beast go totally blind twice -<snip>

I realize that I could get ceramic connectors or an entire aftermarket wiring harness for the lights but several things keep me from doing this. 1) I think Yamaha should address this issue, not the owner. In their defense, Yamaha has been excellent in this aspect. 2) First occurrence was during the regular one year warranty, and as I understand it, warranty parts are covered for a year on their own. 3) I have the 4 year YES coverage. 4) I'm stubborn. 5) Each time it has happened, I am hopeful it will be the last.

I appreciated your stubborn refusal to just fix the problem yourself with higher quality parts. Thanks to you and others like you, Yamaha may eventually find the cause and correct it. That said, I don't have the patience to wait for Yamaha to figure out what I did in 10 minutes and just fixed it myself. Corporations move slowly and are reluctant to admit error. They have issues with accepting mistakes and instead of looking for the solution, look for someone to blame first, then look for a solution.

There is some old saw about doing the same thing the same way and expecting a difference. The harness isn't changing yet, so why do you expect it to be the last time? While ground wire issues may be part of the problem, the simple solution is the ceramic connectors. I did not have the luxury of hoping it wouldn't happen during the IBR when my connectors started melting just prior to that, so changed to the ceramic connectors that I had previously sourced. I have not experienced a failure so far in the 15k miles since then, but time will tell.

 

[sail2xxs]

I appreciated your stubborn refusal to just fix the problem yourself with higher quality parts. Thanks to you and others like you, Yamaha may eventually find the cause and correct it. That said, I don't have the patience to wait for Yamaha to figure out what I did in 10 minutes and just fixed it myself. Corporations move slowly and are reluctant to admit error. They have issues with accepting mistakes and instead of looking for the solution, look for someone to blame first, then look for a solution.

There is some old saw about doing the same thing the same way and expecting a difference. The harness isn't changing yet, so why do you expect it to be the last time? While ground wire issues may be part of the problem, the simple solution is the ceramic connectors. I did not have the luxury of hoping it wouldn't happen during the IBR when my connectors started melting just prior to that, so changed to the ceramic connectors that I had previously sourced. I have not experienced a failure so far in the 15k miles since then, but time will tell.

EricV,

I hear you on the old saw. Since I do have the Squadrons to fall back on in a pinch, I'm not as worried about it. The ground wire mod did seem to make a difference. If I had a big ride like the IBR coming up, I would swap everything out too - and would go with a full harness. You have enough challenges in the IBR itself without adding to the list knowingly! BTW, have you noticed any changes in the color of the wire covers on your bike? On a totally separate note, have you ever experienced any final drive seal seepage? While looking through my maintenance log to answer the headlight harness question, I realized that I have had 5 final drive seals replaced under warranty.



Chris

 

[simmons1]

, I realized that I have had 5 final drive seals replaced under warranty.



Chris

How many miles on the new part number seal?

 

[EricV]

EricV,

I hear you on the old saw. Since I do have the Squadrons to fall back on in a pinch, I'm not as worried about it. The ground wire mod did seem to make a difference. If I had a big ride like the IBR coming up, I would swap everything out too - and would go with a full harness. You have enough challenges in the IBR itself without adding to the list knowingly! BTW, have you noticed any changes in the color of the wire covers on your bike? On a totally separate note, have you ever experienced any final drive seal seepage? While looking through my maintenance log to answer the headlight harness question, I realized that I have had 5 final drive seals replaced under warranty.
Chris

I just went and looked at the wire covers and wiring, (first time I've checked since July 23rd and 15k miles ago), and nothing appears to have changed since I swapped in the ceramic connectors. There is a small area at the inside top of the covers that has some whitish build up that wipes off, but that was there from before the connector change. The wire insulation doesn't appear to have gotten any lighter. The black wires were not completely gray, but did show some heat indications and discoloring when I swapped the connectors out.

I have not experienced any final drive seepage. I get some occasional wetness around the breather vent after rough road riding, (gravel/dirt at 60/70 mph), but nothing you would call a drip.

Which seal have you had replaced, the one on the pumpkin end of the shaft, (p/n 93102-50009-00), or the larger one on the wheel hub side, ( p/n 93102-70004-00)?

5 times is a lot of seals. Having installed a lot of that type of seal, I've seen damage to the mating area from improper installation, and damage to the center rotating part cause premature seal failure.

 

[sail2xxs]

How many miles on the new part number seal?

Simmons1,

Here's the history, with associated part numbers:

20,069 miles: p/n# 93211-54698-00 : 1 o-ring and p/n# 93102-70004-00 : 1 oil seal

43,110 miles: p/n# 93211-54698-00 : 1 o-ring, p/n# 93102-70004-00 : 1 oil seal, and p/n# 2H7-17590-00-00 : 1 breather

61,971 miles: p/n# 93102-70004-00 : 1 oil seal

68,579 miles: Replace final drive p/n#: 23P46101-00-00 rear axle gear case - warranty (seal replaced at 61,971 was starting to seep again, so Yamaha recommended swapping the drive just to be sure it wasn't the issue. Neither the tech, I, or the engineers who subsequently checked the drive found anything obviously amiss with it.)

87,750 miles: PN# 93211-54698-00 (1 o-ring), PN# 93102-70004-00 (1 oil seal), PN# 93102-32480-00 (1 oil seal), PN# 93311-43729-00 (1 bearing, cyl. #11)

Currently have a bit over 95k miles on the bike, with ~7,250 miles on the most recent seal set. Breather replacement at 43,110 was a total guess - once removed, it was apparent that nothing was wrong with the breather, and it was not obstructed in any way. Impressive, since the drive and actually the entire rear wheel, were totally sunk in mud on several occasions. Also of worthwhile note, the final drive fluid looked good - considering the water crossings I do with the bike, that was a pleasant surprise, though I guess it's possible that the water cooks out over the course of the longer highway trips I'm often on. The last seal replacement was the most comprehensive. I'm curious to see if that makes any difference at all.

In my experience, a seal will last nearly as long as a set of K-60s.

Chris

 

[sail2xxs]

I just went and looked at the wire covers and wiring, (first time I've checked since July 23rd and 15k miles ago), and nothing appears to have changed since I swapped in the ceramic connectors. There is a small area at the inside top of the covers that has some whitish build up that wipes off, but that was there from before the connector change. The wire insulation doesn't appear to have gotten any lighter. The black wires were not completely gray, but did show some heat indications and discoloring when I swapped the connectors out.

I have not experienced any final drive seepage. I get some occasional wetness around the breather vent after rough road riding, (gravel/dirt at 60/70 mph), but nothing you would call a drip.

Which seal have you had replaced, the one on the pumpkin end of the shaft, (p/n 93102-50009-00), or the larger one on the wheel hub side, ( p/n 93102-70004-00)?

5 times is a lot of seals. Having installed a lot of that type of seal, I've seen damage to the mating area from improper installation, and damage to the center rotating part cause premature seal failure.

EricV,

Given the type of riding you do, I'd keep a spare set of seals handy just in case. They tend not to be in stock, though the dealer I just started working with has agreed to keep a full pair on hand. I have the wetness around the breather vent fairly often after off pavement excursions, sometimes even after a pretty rough stretch of pavement (some of the backroads in NH this past weekend would have been smoother unpaved!).

Warranty has taken care of all of these issues, and I have never been stranded or needed to trailer the bike because of any of them.

Chris

 

[EricV]

EricV,

Given the type of riding you do, I'd keep a spare set of seals handy just in case. They tend not to be in stock, though the dealer I just started working with has agreed to keep a full pair on hand. I have the wetness around the breather vent fairly often after off pavement excursions, sometimes even after a pretty rough stretch of pavement (some of the backroads in NH this past weekend would have been smoother unpaved!).

Warranty has taken care of all of these issues, and I have never been stranded or needed to trailer the bike because of any of them.

Chris

So noted Chris. I find it interesting that with all the seal and o-ring changes on the first FD, no one ever replaced the shim. Those shims come in different sizes and with the various issues the BMW boys have had, shim tolerances have played a significant part in their issues. That they swapped the entire FD, and it happened again, and that they are replacing oil seals on both sides of the gear set gives me some pause.

From a machinist point of view, I'd want to check your swing arm to see if the axle hole is in concentricity to the FD. And if the face where the FD bolts up is square and parallel to the axle hole. Something is stressing the FD in some way that it causes the seal(s) to fail or allow oil past them as the parts rotate. Unfortunately, it would take a granite plate and Coordinate Measuring Machine to really check the swing arm out. Not likely to happen at dealer level.

 

[sail2xxs]

So noted Chris. I find it interesting that with all the seal and o-ring changes on the first FD, no one ever replaced the shim. Those shims come in different sizes and with the various issues the BMW boys have had, shim tolerances have played a significant part in their issues. That they swapped the entire FD, and it happened again, and that they are replacing oil seals on both sides of the gear set gives me some pause.

From a machinist point of view, I'd want to check your swing arm to see if the axle hole is in concentricity to the FD. And if the face where the FD bolts up is square and parallel to the axle hole. Something is stressing the FD in some way that it causes the seal(s) to fail or allow oil past them as the parts rotate. Unfortunately, it would take a granite plate and Coordinate Measuring Machine to really check the swing arm out. Not likely to happen at dealer level.

EricV,

I agree with you on something stressing the FD. As far as I know, neither of the two dealers who have replaced seals have checked the swing arm. I will definitely bring this up with the new dealer the next time the bike is in the shop. Due for tires and valve check fairly soon.

Thanks for your suggestion! ::008::

Chris

 

[Dallara]

~


Hey, Sail & Eric...

All this info, especially the part numbers, change history, etc., on the final drive really needs to be over in the final drive seal threads, don't ya' think?

And I mean that in the most amiable and constructive way possible. I think it's great here in the "Cooked Headlamp Harness" thread, no problem... But one of these days somebody is going to be saying "I know I saw where Sail2xxs posted his seal replacement history and part numbers, and EricV was talking about swingarm concentricity, but I'll be damned if I can find it in any of the final drive threads!!!" ::025::

I hope you both will re-post the thoughts and details in these last few replies over in those threads. It's good stuff!!! ::008::

Dallara



~

 

[EricV]

Final Drive info

You're certainly right about all that Dallara. Perhaps we can get a Mod to move those posts over to the appropriate thread?

 

[Travex]

Sail2xxs: It appears that if anyone has experience with this problem it's you. Your experience is the best illustrative example I've seen. While EricV is quite correct in saying "Corporations move slowly and are reluctant to admit error", I'm with you in keeping the issue alive insofar as voicing the problem and not letting them off the hook should they continue to avoid the issue. I'm pretty sure this approach will result in my having to address the fault at some horribly inconvenient time and place, but that's my deal.

Thanks for sharing your experience in such great detail... It's appreciated.

 

[sail2xxs]

~


Hey, Sail & Eric...

All this info, especially the part numbers, change history, etc., on the final drive really needs to be over in the final drive seal threads, don't ya' think?

And I mean that in the most amiable and constructive way possible. I think it's great here in the "Cooked Headlamp Harness" thread, no problem... But one of these days somebody is going to be saying "I know I saw where Sail2xxs posted his seal replacement history and part numbers, and EricV was talking about swingarm concentricity, but I'll be damned if I can find it in any of the final drive threads!!!" ::025::

I hope you both will re-post the thoughts and details in these last few replies over in those threads. It's good stuff!!! ::008::

Dallara
~

Dallara,

You're totally right. How do we go about getting a mod to sort the posts where they are easier to find?

Chris

 

[sail2xxs]

Sail2xxs: It appears that if anyone has experience with this problem it's you. Your experience is the best illustrative example I've seen. While EricV is quite correct in saying "Corporations move slowly and are reluctant to admit error", I'm with you in keeping the issue alive insofar as voicing the problem and not letting them off the hook should they continue to avoid the issue. I'm pretty sure this approach will result in my having to address the fault at some horribly inconvenient time and place, but that's my deal.

Thanks for sharing your experience in such great detail... It's appreciated.

Travex,

You're welcome. I think the most important aspect of this experience is the quality of dealer assistance - in my case, I've been very fortunate to work with some excellent techs at very customer service oriented dealers. I've also learned a little bit about how Yamaha customer service seems to work when issues get more involved. The quality of the regional rep responsible for the dealership makes a huge difference. When the tech says they want to replace part X under warranty and the regional rep disagrees, you are SOL. It's a pity, but I switched to using a different dealer for some ongoing warranty related operating issues recently because of exactly this issue.

Chris

 

[Travex]

Good to know of your quality experiences with those dealers and Yamaha in general. When shopping for my latest bike I looked carefully at BMW, Triumph, Ducati, and KTM. Yamaha won out as quality, MTBF, number of dealers, and past experience eclipsed the contenders.
In my case, I hadn't gone with the Y.E.S. plan. My local dealer has been stellar in approaching my slightly-out-of-warranty issue. However, I'm very interested in their continuance of goodwill over this obvious engineering inadequacy. I'll continue to keep a close eye on this thread and contribute any future experience.