Bar riser flex

[TheMCP]

Greetings, new owner currently in the process of setting up my new '19 Tenere, and had a question for those with bar risers.

I installed a set of Rox risers with the vibration damping rubber bumpers, and I'm noticing quite a bit of movement... not stuff actually twisting in the clamps but rubber flexing, in the bar mounts. Whats weird is that the movement doesn't seem to be coming primarily from the risers, most of it seems to originate from where the stock bar holders attach to the triple clamp. Obviously there is a lot more leverage now with the risers installed, I was just wondering if anybody else had noticed this issue... I would think you'd have the same issue with "normal" bar risers of any significant height.

I'm not terribly worried about it I guess... I had the bike on the center stand and was shoving the bar lock to lock, then forward and back, to see if I could get them to move. From what I can tell from pictures, these risers have a stem that is somewhere in between the "normal" and "extended stem" variations. The stem goes most of the way through the clamps, but not 100%, so I wanted to make sure they weren't going to move unexpectedly. They don't, but I can definitely get the rubber mounts to flex. I don't think it's a "problem" really, but it is a bit weird. My test ride got cut short by weather, but from what I could tell they feel ok under normal use. Standing position went from being atrocious to very close to being excellent... hopefully just a bit of tweaking of angles now.

Anybody else notice this with their risers?

 

[EricV]

Some owners of Gen II bikes have installed some flat washers on the top and bottom of the rubber isolators in the factory risers. They in effect already have vibration dampening built in, so adding Rox risers with additional vibration dampening may be over kill. Some simply didn't like the amount of flex in the OEM risers, thus the washers. It tightens things up a bit. I have not done this and have Rox 2" risers. I haven't noticed enough flex to bother me, but we are all different.

 

[Cycledude]

This definitely is a topic that I’m interested in.

 

[TheMCP]

That's an interesting idea... thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to pick up some big washers tomorrow and see if I can tune the amount of overall flex in the system to my liking. Yanking on the bars and having them bend on the triple clamps isn't really something one is going to notice under normal riding circumstances... if I hadn't been trying to test the Rox riser tightness I may not have noticed right away. Now that I've noticed it though, I'll always know its there so trying to get it to feel "right" makes sense.

 

[Karl]

I installed the washers after doing risers and the result is great, even after eliminating all flex from the factory dampers.

 

[Don in Lodi]

You added more flex to a system that already had flex built in. Can you send your flex risers back for the non-flex version?

 

[taskmaster86]

I believe I started the original thread about this very issue. The washers are a must to take out any extra slop in the bar system!

Gen 1 bikes with their direct clamp bar system was actually a better design than the gen 2 bar system.

 

[Checkswrecks]

The Gen2 rubber dampers were a response to a few people bitching that they felt some vibration at the grips. Kinda ironic that some want to go back, but on the up-side, the Gen1 top triple and parts above it are interchangeable.

 

[TheMCP]

Lots of good information, thank you everyone.

Not sure if I could return the risers or not... my guess is not, but if I can make these work for me that'd be preferable. The flex I'm finding unusual is coming primarily from the stock dampers, not the risers, so it's not surprising that people with normal risers notice this flexing also. If I turn the wheel to the lock and continue to twist the bars, you can see the stock bar mounts twist in their mounts to the triple clamp. In practice I doubt it'd ever significantly affect steering, but I'm going to see if I can cut down on the amount of flex I'm getting by using the washer method.

In a way, I'm a little surprised I didn't notice this flexing with everything stock. Adding those couple inches of rise really multiplies the amount of force one can put on those dampers.

 

[ballisticexchris]

I actually like the dampers that Yamaha has on the Gen 2 super Tenere. I would caution anyone to not do a washer modification. This is a recipe for the handlebars to snap off the mounts with no warning. The handlebar mounts are designed to have some give to prevent this. It's another reason I use the Heli Bar Risers instead of the Roxx risers. Heli Bars are carefully engineered to work with the OEM dampers safely.

Please don't take my word for it. I was doing sweep on a charity ride and this is the outcome of modified solid mounts. Fortunately the bars snapped off in a slow sweeper on a fire road. He walked away from it. The Date is wrong. This was around 2015 or so.

Take note of the tire he is running. Rider after rider was wiping out on these crappy Chevron style tires. These were the rage for a few seasons until the off road crowd figured out they were not safe for anything other than putt putt in low gear.

 

[TheMCP]

Well, I installed some big washers that go around the core of the stock anti vibration dampers, and while it did help significantly with the flex I was experiencing in a forward / backward direction, the flex in the twisting the bars direction was less effected (perhaps unsurprisingly).

As it turns out, revzilla had an open box pair of the extended stem rox risers, and I had some of their promotion cash so for 67$ I decided to go ahead and see what difference those make, if any. Something about seeing the clamps twist is just unnerving, even if I have to do something that would never happen under normal conditions to make it happen.

I'll come back and update this thread after I've had a chance to contrast the differences.

 

[ballisticexchris]

Well, I installed some big washers that go around the core of the stock anti vibration dampers, and while it did help significantly with the flex I was experiencing in a forward / backward direction, the flex in the twisting the bars direction was less effected (perhaps unsurprisingly).

As it turns out, revzilla had an open box pair of the extended stem rox risers, and I had some of their promotion cash so for 67$ I decided to go ahead and see what difference those make, if any. Something about seeing the clamps twist is just unnerving, even if I have to do something that would never happen under normal conditions to make it happen.

I'll come back and update this thread after I've had a chance to contrast the differences.

Just make sure you keep an eye on the studs. With no rubber to dampen them catastrophic failure is a real possibility. I figure for normal street riding you might be ok. I personally would not chance it. And of course any insurance claim will be denied with such a drastic compromise to the integrity of the stock mounts. This guy was lucky to have lived through this one. He was doing less than 25mph when he augured into the ground. He too removed the rubber mounts and used washers as you can see from the one still clinging on the right.

 

[Don in Lodi]

Well, I installed some big washers that go around the core of the stock anti vibration dampers, and while it did help significantly with the flex I was experiencing in a forward / backward direction, the flex in the twisting the bars direction was less effected (perhaps unsurprisingly).

As it turns out, revzilla had an open box pair of the extended stem rox risers, and I had some of their promotion cash so for 67$ I decided to go ahead and see what difference those make, if any. Something about seeing the clamps twist is just unnerving, even if I have to do something that would never happen under normal conditions to make it happen.

I'll come back and update this thread after I've had a chance to contrast the differences.

Do keep in mind they make them different for the Gen I and the Gen II.

 

[EricV]

The riser breakage you share was not on a Super Tenere. That bike also has other non stock items. None of us really know what was done to that bike. Including you. You know what you were told, but if you didn't do the actual work, you're just passing on what you saw & heard, not first hand info of what was actually done by the owner. Only the owner can share that, if he actually did the work.

There have been zero reports of broken risers on Super Teneres.

Tossing out unsupported nonsense about insurance issues when you are not an investigater and haven't personally had a claim for this denied is just spreading rumours.

People that have been doing the washer mod are not eliminating the oem rubber dampers. They are just sandwiching them.

Opinions are good. Please share what you can support with Super Ten experience. Not some other bike, not owned by you.

 

[ballisticexchris]

Sorry I have to disagree Eric. I was there, I know the owner and what he did. (it was fatigue failure from heavy off road use over time). Does not matter it was on a different bike. Point is he used washers that did not come with the Scotts riser kit resulting in a failure. These studs are very similar to the Super Tenere. And yes I have seen many insurance claims denied for using non compliant, owner modified parts.

This is a serious issue that I'm sharing. I'm passing information from an engineering standpoint. Sandwiching washers instead of using the OEM dampers is a risk that I'm passing along so someone will not get hurt. BTW this failure is not an opinion I'm sharing. It's a fact that I have seen with my own eyes. The only opinion I have is to not do it. The owner will be the one choose to take the risk.

FWIW the reason for being unsafe is with washers the stud has no give. If you look at the Gen 1 bikes the solid mount is cast into the top clamp. It's one piece. Using solid washers puts a huge amount of stress on those small studs. They were designed to be used with the rubber. It's just common sense. Over time that rubber will be replaced as a wearable item along with the studs.

Of course most guys are not going to have a problem if the bike is a pavement queen and the studs are properly torqued. OTOH, this bike is going to be used by a lot of us in harsh conditions over rough dirt roads. That's when these type of modifications rear their ugly heads.

Instead of using washers simply purchase a Gen 1 top crown. It's only about 150 bucks and a solid one piece part. A much safer option.

PN: 23P-23405-00-00

 

[taskmaster86]

The Gen2 rubber dampers were a response to a few people bitching that they felt some vibration at the grips. Kinda ironic that some want to go back, but on the up-side, the Gen1 top triple and parts above it are interchangeable.

Has anyone ever converted the upper triple clamp over? If so, I Imagine you need to buy the upper triple clamp, the bar clamps and steering head cover to do the job? How does the ignition get switched over?
I dislike the gen 2 bar system so much that I would switch it over to the gen 1 system if it really is possible.

 

[EricV]

Sorry I have to disagree Eric. I was there, I know the owner and what he did. (it was fatigue failure from heavy off road use over time). Does not matter it was on a different bike. Point is he used washers that did not come with the Scotts riser kit resulting in a failure. These studs are very similar to the Super Tenere. And yes I have seen many insurance claims denied for using non compliant, owner modified parts.

Of course most guys are not going to have a problem if the bike is a pavement queen and the studs are properly torqued. OTOH, this bike is going to be used by a lot of us in harsh conditions over rough dirt roads. That's when these type of modifications rear their ugly heads.

I have no issue with sharing experiences. I feel you overstated the issue by a large degree, not understanding the design and implementation and essentially fear mongering.

Really, you've had many insurance claims denied for using non-compliant, owner modified parts? That stirs a different pot. If the claim was for a failure directly related to an owner modified part, why would you submit a claim? And having dealt with and personally asked a lot of questions specific to these issues with insurance investigators, I frankly find your statement difficult to believe unless you have been filing frivolous claims.

I also disagree with your statement in regards to harsh conditions over rough roads. Those aren't harsh conditions. It's what the bike is designed to do. I've taken a FJR over roads and non-roads that most people wouldn't do on the Super Ten and even with the aluminum frame, lack of ground clearance and over loaded, nothing ever broke in well over 150k miles of doing it.

If someone was really using the Super Ten on brutal off road rides, they picked the wrong bike! This 600 lb pig is a very versatile bike capable of doing more than most riders, including me, can do off pavement. The likelyhood of breaking the riser studs, solid or vibration dampened is tiny. This isn't just a failure with a low rate, it's virtually unheard of in any bike. You know of one incident that occured on a heavily modified bike being used hard for off road riding, by you're own description. Do you really think that anyone on a Super Ten would be using it like your fellow rider was using that bike?

No one here was even discussing replacing the rubber dampeners with solid washers. Only sandwiching the dampeners with a washer at either end. Sometimes only one end is enough to make the difference desired by the rider. And even doing this at all accounts for a tiny segment of riders within this community.

As a machinist with 30+ years of manufacturing experience with a lot of failure analysis involved, I'm very aware of metal fatigue and how different materials respond to vibration and time and how they fail. Few just break w/o displaying cracks. Odds are very high that your fellow rider never inspected his modification prior to the catastrophic failure. And that it had significant hours/miles on it at the time of failure.

I'm just saying that jumping in and saying something vaguely similar resulted in a failure, then crying out OMG the insurance company will deny any claim you have is a bit over the top. Another Chrisism, as coined by another member here. If you keep stirring the pot and crying wolf, no one is going to take your posts serious at all.

You're coming here from a much different background, from older, smaller, lower tech bikes and with a great level of overall riding experience that you can share in positive ways. Just remember that this beast is unlike anything else you've owned before and take a moment to consider if what you want to share is really applicable to this venue.

 

[ballisticexchris]

Really Eric? You are going to make backhanded cleverly worded attacks on me? Stirring the pot, Chrisism, frivolous insurance claims, low tech bike background? This is more than disagreeing with me. You have no idea of my background.

I'm pretty confident that I have never once came on this or any other forum and shoved down members throats my accolades and accomplishments to make myself look better. I'm just a guy who likes to ride and share stuff on here good and bad.

I am sharing a real issue with what can happen when doing a modification that's unsafe. Not putting fear into anyone. I'm simply showing a failure that a fellow rider experienced. And that bike was very well maintained before and after the incident. I too have had studs bend and break on more than a few dirt bikes in the past. CR500 being one of them. Studded handle bar mount failure is a lot more common than you realize..

Has anyone ever converted the upper triple clamp over? If so, I Imagine you need to buy the upper triple clamp, the bar clamps and steering head cover to do the job? How does the ignition get switched over?
I dislike the gen 2 bar system so much that I would switch it over to the gen 1 system if it really is possible.

I imagine you might have to relocate the ignition. Should not be that hard. I actually looked at the parts and it looks to be a simple switchover. The bar position is a little more forward as well. That might be good or bad depending on rider preference.

 

[TheMCP]

It was out of caution that I created this thread... seeing the mounts twist to the degree that they did when I tested the rox risers makes me uncomfortable about the hardware in the handlebar system. When I turned to lock and shoved the handlebar, I thought I had twisted the forks in the triple clamp. I'm not saying that kind of movement would definitely loosen bolts, but it makes me nervous.

I have a feeling my particular problem has more to do with the vibration damping risers than anything else... if you had the bar in stock form and push the bar all over the place, the mounts will wiggle on the rubber dampers, but they won't twist, because they're connected directly to each other by the bar. Mounts like the one Chris linked to use a solid bar that spans the stock bar mounts, which will eliminate the twisting action in the bar mounts. One can decide if they like or dislike the back and forth / side to side motion in the stock rubber mounts, but that's what they're supposed to do. Having the mounts twist is a different story.

Still, the rox risers should provide a rigid enough platform to not experience the kind of motion I'm seeing with mine. My guess is that the rox anti-vibration rubber is the main contributor to the twisting action, new mounts will clear up a lot of what I'm seeing, and I'll probably end up removing the washers.

For anyone who is considering the washer thing, I only installed washers on the top of the triple clamp (I left the underside with the nut on it alone), and it made a pretty significant difference in the amount of "give" in the bars. You'll need a bigger washer than you think... there is a metal sleeve that holds the stud through the rubber mount, you want to put the washer around that sleeve, and fill the air gap between the bar mount and the triple clamp.

Me personally, I don't know that I'd worry too much about breaking the stud, but if the bolts on the back of the stud were to come loose and you didn't do anything about it... who knows, you might introduce enough flex in the stud to eventually break it.

For what its worth, I installed the washers to see what kind of difference they'd make, but I'd rather not have them there if I don't have to. Also for what its worth, however dangerous or not the washer solution is, I would guess the twisting mounts are more dangerous. Like I said I'll update this when I have a comparison to share, but if you're looking at revzilla's "compatible bar risers" list, for rox risers anyway I'd be hesitant to suggest anything but the extended stem version of the normal, non-anti-vibe risers.

 

[TheMCP]

After looking more closely at the manner in which the lateral flex is occurring, it is definitely mostly attributable to the anti vibration risers. Interestingly enough, it's not the actual rubber that is the issue, it's the fact that there is a bolt that goes through the rubber that ends up becoming a singular horizontal pivot point when you put extra turning force on the bars. It's that pivoting action allows for an angular disconnect between the bars and the stock mounts, which makes everything bend and twist in ways that bars and mounts shouldn't be bending and twisting. I dunno if I can return these or not, but they'll be coming off and not going back on either way.

So be aware... I would not recommend the rox anti vibration risers for a Gen 2 bike with the rubber bar mounts.