Arrowed and then Chaos

[Manoussos]

Greetings everyone, and first of all happy travels and safe roads to all of you.

My first post here, and I'm looking for advice about the fueling problems. I will try to keep my drama-telling short, and hope that my story can be useful to some who encounter/ed similar issues. The bike is a 2012 model (world crosser) with 60-70k. Her main role is to take me far (2k-3k trips in Italy/Balkans/Greece), but I also take it sometimes to go to work (50-50 city/highway usage). On the highway, besides the non ideal wind protection (ok I'm tall, and put a Givi Airflow) it's a marvel of stability. In the city it's a totally different story, and here's where the fueling issues come to the surface.

Trying to smooth out throttle response (good throttle bodies cleaning included +KN) I installed the Arrow headers only (stock exhaust). The <2000rpm was better, and the >3000rpm response with a little more grunt, accompanied by a more aggressive sound (yet kind of "dry" to the ear, OK I know my mixtures are lean from the factory). In between (2000-3000rpm) it was still so and so, but I could live with that.

The Chaos started when early this year I decided to go one step further and unleash the full potential of this fantastic engine (little did I know...), added the Arrow exhaust as well to have a completely "open" system. The symptoms included (both S & T modes):

• horrible decel pops (had to hold the clutch on almost every decel)
• unstable idle with hot engine (dancing between 1000 and 1200 rpm)
• when re-applying throttle after brakes (say, inside a turn) huge choking for 0.5 sec and then a nasty kick forward
• the surge around 2000 rpm (2nd/3rd gear, low city speeds) got worse

After thanking Arrow in my dreams, I sent my ECU to a tuner for flashing in the hopes that this would cure everything (+ the extra response and ponies). Besides the obvious power gains, all of the above symptoms remained (although they did remove the decel cut-off) plus a new one: the unstable idle now sometimes goes below 1000 rpm and the engine simply dies. You can imagine the consequences: you, your girl, 50kg luggage, and a 270kg bike on a very slow turn and the engine just dies... best case scenario: you react to save your leg from being crushed and you let the bike fall (with the girl

I'm not looking for the *magical answer*, and I know this type of issues have already been discussed before. If you could please direct me to some previous readings it would be a great help! ...and I thank you in advance for it.

(PS. Yesterday I put back the stock exhaust and the idle-dying things persists. I has to be related to the ECU adaptive learning (how to die) I suppose... Seriously, please help!

Salutations from a 47 yo biker from the south of France.
Manoussos

 

[cyclemike4]

Greetings everyone, and first of all happy travels and safe roads to all of you.

My first post here, and I'm looking for advice about the fueling problems. I will try to keep my drama-telling short, and hope that my story can be useful to some who encounter/ed similar issues. The bike is a 2012 model (world crosser) with 60-70k. Her main role is to take me far (2k-3k trips in Italy/Balkans/Greece), but I also take it sometimes to go to work (50-50 city/highway usage). On the highway, besides the non ideal wind protection (ok I'm tall, and put a Givi Airflow) it's a marvel of stability. In the city it's a totally different story, and here's where the fueling issues come to the surface.

Trying to smooth out throttle response (good throttle bodies cleaning included +KN) I installed the Arrow headers only (stock exhaust). The <2000rpm was better, and the >3000rpm response with a little more grunt, accompanied by a more aggressive sound (yet kind of "dry" to the ear, OK I know my mixtures are lean from the factory). In between (2000-3000rpm) it was still so and so, but I could live with that.

The Chaos started when early this year I decided to go one step further and unleash the full potential of this fantastic engine (little did I know...), added the Arrow exhaust as well to have a completely "open" system. The symptoms included (both S & T modes):

• horrible decel pops (had to hold the clutch on almost every decel)
• unstable idle with hot engine (dancing between 1000 and 1200 rpm)
• when re-applying throttle after brakes (say, inside a turn) huge choking for 0.5 sec and then a nasty kick forward
• the surge around 2000 rpm (2nd/3rd gear, low city speeds) got worse

After thanking Arrow in my dreams, I sent my ECU to a tuner for flashing in the hopes that this would cure everything (+ the extra response and ponies). Besides the obvious power gains, all of the above symptoms remained (although they did remove the decel cut-off) plus a new one: the unstable idle now sometimes goes below 1000 rpm and the engine simply dies. You can imagine the consequences: you, your girl, 50kg luggage, and a 270kg bike on a very slow turn and the engine just dies... best case scenario: you react to save your leg from being crushed and you let the bike fall (with the girl

I'm not looking for the *magical answer*, and I know this type of issues have already been discussed before. If you could please direct me to some previous readings it would be a great help! ...and I thank you in advance for it.

(PS. Yesterday I put back the stock exhaust and the idle-dying things persists. I has to be related to the ECU adaptive learning (how to die) I suppose... Seriously, please help!

Salutations from a 47 yo biker from the south of France.
Manoussos

Hello Manoussos! Welcome. I feel your pain. My 2012 ran just about like yours is running. It used to be the worse low RPM bike i have ever owned. Even my two stroke motocross bikes had better bottom end response! Any way the first thing to check would be for vacuum leaks and do a throttle body sync. those little rubber plugs are bad about cracking that are on the vacuum ports of the throttle bodies. Over the years I have just tried different things and just about have mine completely cured. One and this helped a lot I opened the air bypass screws that balance the throttle bodies not 3/4 turns but 1 3/4. then I balanced from there. I do not know what they are at now but i have them still way open. I also recently moved the throttle accelerator sensor just a bit to keep the throttle plates from closing all the way at idle. that really helped but I doubt that any other bike out there would have the same issue i had with mine. the last major thing was I changed the coils. that flat spot between 2000 and 3000 rpm is gone! I still have a bit of a floaty idle at times and if the outside temperature is right during a stop I still have the idle drop low. It no longer dies and will recover on its own. But in a panic stop I tend to hold the throttle on a bit to prevent that so i can fire out back out if someone behind me isn't going to stop. Really i have about 97 percent of my issues solved without a flash. I have the stock head pipe with converter still in it. I have a two brothers muffler but it was burnt out 60,000 miles ago. So i pretty much don't have a muffler. I am running the stock airbox and filter. Do a search for throttle body balance and start from there. Good luck. I can say when these things are right they are a beautiful bike to ride. I used to never try slow speed tight riding. you never knew when it would stumble and die. Slug down them snap out. It was completely unpredictable. I am feeling good about low speed tight stuff now. confidence in the bike in that area has greatly improved for me.

 

[SkunkWorks]

Do you happen to know if the wiring-Recall was ever done on your bike?
I believe the 1st-gen bikes had a Recall that addressed the wiring between the ECU and the Throttle-Actuator motor and sensor, and it was for symptoms as you have described.......
You may want to check to see if it was ever fixed on your bike, or if the Recall is available for your VIN number.

 

[Manoussos]

Hi again, and thank you so much for your input ! (even the psychological support really counts in these situations )

Before going to point-by-points answers, I would like to focus our attention to the fact that all of the above mentioned symptoms started when in installed the Arrow exhaust (the muffler that is), meaning the bike was OK the previous day (with the Arrow headers only), and almost undrivable the next (with both the Arrow headers and the Arrow exhaust muffler). This leads me to put aside (for now) any "mechanical imperfections", such as "did you check your valve clearance?", "did you check for leaks in the exhaust?", "did you check your spark plugs?", things that I heard on the phone when I tried to reach two local tuners.

@cyclemike4 : I really appreciate the time you took to put down all these ideas! thanks man.

• Totally agree for the throttle body sync, it will be done shortly along with a good cleaning of the bodies
• I'm not sure if I know how to check for vacuum leaks, but I'll try to check as well with my mechanic
• Another mechanic/friend in Greece (ex-owner of S10) also told me last summer about the rubber plugs, we checked and they're ok
• I've read in the past that unscrewing an additional turn the air screws improves things, and it makes sense actually!
• The part of moving the accelerator sensor really interests me: how did you do that? It can be an easy/direct solution to both low idle, and chocking when re-applying accelerator after braking
• "Slug down and then snap out" : that's the right description, thank you! (sorry, english isn't my native language)
• Checked for the coils last year when I changed the spark plugs and they seemed OK, but I keep that in mind as well

@SkunkWorks : thank you as well for the input! I have no idea what this recall is about, or how to contact the previous owner (it's been 6 years now). Would you think that with a VIN number I can ask at Yamaha-France maybe? ...and what's a VIN number?

I'm on the verge of buying a Flash Tune compatible ECU (mine's ends with -60...), and the Flash Tune data link. In the meantime, I will try to go through all the posts in the Power/ECU section.

Have a nice weekend guys!

 

[SkunkWorks]

Hello,
Here in the US, every vehicle that is legally sold has to have a VIN number (Vehicle Identification Number)
It's how vehicles are uniquely registered here for ownership or tracking purposes.
It is on a sticker that is permanently attached to the bike, but it is also stamped on the frame and usually on the engine somewhere also.

Other Countries may use a different system of unique vehicle identification..............similar or the same as our VIN system?

You should be able to contact Yamaha to see if there are any outstanding recalls, based on your Vehicle number or Frame-number.
I was able to put my VIN number on a website to check and see if there were any recalls listed, but the page I used says it is only for North America machines.

 

[Manoussos]

Thanks again @SkunkWorks, I'll keep that in mind

 

[Jlq1969]

If you say it got worse "after" you installed the Arrow muffler, it's because installing the muffler more open reduced engine compression at low rpm. You say you changed the spark plugs and checked the coils last year. I remember reading about two types of failures with the coils (which apparently worked well and had good resistance values). The problem is that you have two coils per cylinder, but even with just one coil, the engine runs, but not correctly.
One failure was a "microcrack" in the coil pen, which caused the voltage to discharge toward the block instead of the spark plug. The other failure was in one of the (-) wires of one of the coils, which was rubbing against the chassis (under the air filter box), and this rubbing (with a mallet) caused the coil to permanently discharge (like a kind of lost spark). The engine ran but not correctly, and there was no check light.
What you say about the way the engine works between 1000 and 2000 rpm... and then between 2000 and 3000... is because between 1 and 2 the injection system is controlled by the lambda probes... and from 2000 onwards the system stops being controlled by the probes and becomes an open system (by maps and positions)... Maybe you should also check the lambda probes, that they are connected to their corresponding plugs and that they are working properly... (but since you say you did a reflash, it is likely that the tuner has eliminated the control of the lambda and left the system open)...

 

[cyclemike4]

Hi again, and thank you so much for your input ! (even the psychological support really counts in these situations )

Before going to point-by-points answers, I would like to focus our attention to the fact that all of the above mentioned symptoms started when in installed the Arrow exhaust (the muffler that is), meaning the bike was OK the previous day (with the Arrow headers only), and almost undrivable the next (with both the Arrow headers and the Arrow exhaust muffler). This leads me to put aside (for now) any "mechanical imperfections", such as "did you check your valve clearance?", "did you check for leaks in the exhaust?", "did you check your spark plugs?", things that I heard on the phone when I tried to reach two local tuners.

@cyclemike4 : I really appreciate the time you took to put down all these ideas! thanks man.

• Totally agree for the throttle body sync, it will be done shortly along with a good cleaning of the bodies
• I'm not sure if I know how to check for vacuum leaks, but I'll try to check as well with my mechanic
• Another mechanic/friend in Greece (ex-owner of S10) also told me last summer about the rubber plugs, we checked and they're ok
• I've read in the past that unscrewing an additional turn the air screws improves things, and it makes sense actually!
• The part of moving the accelerator sensor really interests me: how did you do that? It can be an easy/direct solution to both low idle, and chocking when re-applying accelerator after braking
• "Slug down and then snap out" : that's the right description, thank you! (sorry, english isn't my native language)
• Checked for the coils last year when I changed the spark plugs and they seemed OK, but I keep that in mind as well

@SkunkWorks : thank you as well for the input! I have no idea what this recall is about, or how to contact the previous owner (it's been 6 years now). Would you think that with a VIN number I can ask at Yamaha-France maybe? ...and what's a VIN number?

I'm on the verge of buying a Flash Tune compatible ECU (mine's ends with -60...), and the Flash Tune data link. In the meantime, I will try to go through all the posts in the Power/ECU section.

Have a nice weekend guys!

Hello Manoussos. Sorry i missed your question on the accelerator sensor. Like i said I think mine may have been the only one with that issue. the throttle plates drove down so hard at idle sometimes they would stick in the bore of the throttle body and it would take a pretty good kick from the servo motor to get them opened. that caused all kinds of havoc starting out from an idle. Also I have always believed that my bike was completely choked out at idle. Just didn't have enough air to run. By opening the by pass screws and letting those throttle plates not close so tight really helped my bike. I made a tool to turn the screws on the sensor because it is wedged between the throttle bodies. I have pictures and a bit of explanation in what you did to your bike thread. I am not sure how to find that for sure but it is in there someplace. Like I said though I would find it hard to believe many of these bikes had just that issue though. By the way the range that Yamaha called good when you are in trouble shooting mode where you see the position on the dash was good but it just didn't work on my bike. It is still in spec according to the service manual but I just watched the butterflies and set it by eye really. It has been a great adjustment on my bike.

 

[Manoussos]

Thanks again for taking the time to reply @cyclemike4

 

[WJBertrand]

Regarding ECU flashes, they’re not all created equal! I used a standard “canned” tune from flash tune the first time. It didn’t really solve the jerky throttle response or provide any noticeable improvements in running. Later I had the ECU reflashed again by a gentleman here in the US, (Anthony) who developed the tune after numerous iterations and road testing, there was no comparison, it was a night and day improvement! A good tune should be done this way or on a dynamometer, not just a one size fits all prepackaged tune.

 

[cyclemike4]

Regarding ECU flashes, they’re not all created equal! I used a standard “canned” tune from flash tune the first time. It didn’t really solve the jerky throttle response or provide any noticeable improvements in running. Later I had the ECU reflashed again by a gentleman here in the US, (Anthony) who developed the tune after numerous iterations and road testing, there was no comparison, it was a night and day improvement! A good tune should be done this way or on a dynamometer, not just a one size fits all prepackaged tune.

I have always wondered about those flash tune ecu's. It make me nervous sending it out to someone who doesn't know you and doesn't understand how you ride and just puts a sport bike tune on the thing. If you look up any dyno run on any bike you will never see a graph below 3000 rpm. I actually heard a tuner say last night on a video that the graph doesn't matter below 3000 anyway. Well yes it does that is the very most important part for me. Every single time I stop and start off that motor has to pull through idle to 3000 in a clean controlled manner. If it isn't someone tuning the ecu that is directly involved heavily with the bike you are riding you never know what you will get.

 

[Manoussos]

Totally agree with both. The big 1200cc rarely exceeds 3000rpm in city traffic conditions, not to mention tight mountain roads. And yes, "canned" flash is what I did (a tuner here in France). I thought it would magically solve all my problems with the full exhaust (headers+muffler), but all it did was to remove the restrictions. In the end of the day, they don't really advertise anything more than that (well, kind of...)

Nevertheless the main question stuck in my head since I went back to the stock muffler is (ecu still flahsed): why the slug-down/snap-out* (c. cyclemike) is still there, especially on T-mode??? I didn't have it with the stock muffler (pre-flash & pre-full open exhaust)

Next steps will include: clean the throttle bodies and air filter, check the plugs and coils, check for leaks in the exhaust pipe... and we'll take it from there



* slug down and snap out: when you close the throttle (braking, entering turn) and then gradually open throttle inside the turn, but the bike chockes and bogs down for half a second, and then kicks forward usually with a big pop

 

[WJBertrand]

Just sounds a lot like a poorly done flash program/map to me. I think that’s all my canned tune did was remove the restrictions, nothing was done to smooth the throttle response.

 

[siroco]

I believe the K&N high-flow filter, combined with the catalytic converter-less line and the open exhaust, have leaned the mixture. If you've also flashed the ECU and disabled the closed loop, it will no longer correct the AFR, and the fuel mixture will obey the base volumetric efficiency tables. If the closed loop hasn't been disabled, a simple and inexpensive solution is to purchase a fuel dongle that emulates lambda sensors. These dongles produce a reading of 0 mV, which will trigger the fuel trim, enriching the mixture. If the closed loop has been disabled, the fuel dongle won't work.

 

[Jlq1969]

tuner here in France

France? I didn't know you were from France, but in that case, you should check if your bike has power restrictions. I remember reading in motorcycle publications that France was one of the countries where motorcycles had horsepower restrictions.
“bridage à 100 chevaux”…until 2016

 

[~TABASCO~]

Few things to check-

Air leaks at the header connection to the motor. Seal it up…
Air leaks around the TB’s or boots. Cracks- replace parts….
Many / most all “flashes” don’t address proper fueling for each ‘combo’ of parts that have been changed. This can be done but very rarely done, very time consuming and expensive. (Long story short) for many years people have used a ‘flash’ for improvements across the “better working” range. And then added a second product like a Power Commander that can control proper fueling. For this bike- that has been an excellent combo.

Nate @ 2WDW does a great job talking about many of these perspectives. He has a you-tube channel I suggest everyone visit.