Lithium-Ion batteries, EVs, and myth busting

Jlq1969 said:

In commercial aviation, practically all manufacturers use lithium, the same as in airforces aircraft. Surely this is the result of rigorous tests that led manufacturers to opt for this type of battery.

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Actually most commercial aviation is still rooted in good old NiCads because the re-certification process for existing aircraft systems is such a huge burden. I was the first investigator launched to the first 787 battery fire in Boston in January 2013 so know the 787 and Boeings' answer intimately. They made some improvements to the battery following our investigation by the real answer? They simply put it in an enclosed stainless box with an overboard vent in case it failed.

Jlq1969 said:

The problem of fires in lithium batteries must be related to the regular/poor batteries quality , or the charging system, or the electrical systems they power.
I'm afraid if they have an instant combustion….In my house, there are lithium batteries in every corner, charging and ready to be used….

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More recent aircraft are being certified with LiFePo4 which is a less volatile chemistry that is extremely hard to catch fire, plus stress it less in charge & discharge.

Checkswrecks said:

No harm on bringing it inside but Li-Ion won't be harmed in the cold if just sitting. I simply leave one terminal disconnected.
It can be harmed when you try to charge it, such as when the bike just started, and the temps are low 20s or less.

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That's why on other bikes you turn the key on and the electron flow warms the battery. Do that for a minute and then start. Only problem with doing that on a Tenere is the lights don't turn on until the engine is started!

RCinNC said:

Do they make Li-ion batteries for motorcycles that don't have an integral BMS? Are they advertised as such? It sounds like, without one, you could get your bike started on a very cold morning with a Li-ion battery with a less than full charge, and subsequently damage the battery as you start riding and the stator begins charging the battery. Am I interpreting that correctly?

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Almost all good LiFePo battery manufacturers have a Battery Maintenance system built in these days.

Checkswrecks said:

. . . . It can be harmed when you try to charge it, such as when the bike just started, and the temps are low 20s or less.

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Yeah, that's why I don't ride in the cold. Protecting my battery. Oh wait, I don't have a lithium.

Sierra1 said:

Yeah, that's why I don't ride in the cold. Protecting my battery. Oh wait, I don't have a lithium.

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You really don't have cold either!... but I guess 40 or 50 is cold compared to 100.

TenereGUY said:

Almost all good LiFePo battery manufacturers have a Battery Maintenance system built in these days.

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Again -
"There are definitely LiB with internal BMS, but whether they limit cold charging is a different animal so stay with the reputable makers and make sure first.
Will Prowse is a YT guy who tests a lot of batteries (most bigger than we use) and it's astounding how many have a BMS but either have no cold charge limiting or non-functioning temp sensors."

TenereGUY said:

You really don't have cold either!... but I guess 40 or 50 is cold compared to 100.

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Yup. Now that I don't have to ride in the cold . . . . I don't. But to make up for it, I don't have an upper limit.

Good information, my 14 needs a new power pack. The 14S seems like the go to with CCA above 230. Time to shop, riding season before we know it

One of my brothers neighbors has those little race cars that run on Lithium battery, his charger quit working so he took the battery to my brother and asked him to charge it for him, brother said sure I can do that so he plugs it in and sets it on the workbench , 1am he gets woke up by police banging on door saying his garage is on fire ! The fire department was already there putting out the fire, said the cause was the charger and lithium battery, so it became a fight between his home owners insurance and the battery charger outfit, took almost a year to settle. He wasn’t allowed to do anything to the garage until the case was settled.

What type of charger did your brother hook up to the battery?

Cycledude said:

One of my brothers neighbors has those little race cars that run on Lithium battery, his charger quit working so he took the battery to my brother and asked him to charge it for him, brother said sure I can do that so he plugs it in and sets it on the workbench , 1am he gets woke up by police banging on door saying his garage is on fire ! The fire department was already there putting out the fire, said the cause was the charger and lithium battery, so it became a fight between his home owners insurance and the battery charger outfit, took almost a year to settle. He wasn’t allowed to do anything to the garage until the case was settled.

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Bummer but not uncommon. People assuming any lithium charger works with any lithium battery is one of the biggest problems we are seeing with the e-bikes, scooters, and tools, and toys.

Assuming you can use any charger is dangerous and people have fires for two reasons.
1. Because there are various chemistries, using the wrong charger may try to push a higher and unsafe amount of voltage.
2. The charger may charge at a higher C rate (charge rate) than the cells can safely take.

Bottom line is that it is really important to use the OEM charger or one that is specified for the chemistry (type of cells) being charged.
For more info: https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-409-charging-lithium-ion

Plenty of lithium batteries have exploded or caught fire while being charged with OEM chargers.
Probably Best to not leave a Lithium battery unattended while charging, or charge it somewhere where it can’t start a fire.

I can definitely see E.V. being very good transportation for some people. Probably would not be too bad for me being my daily commute to work is only 30 miles. I lose electric at my house too often though! that could be a problem. Carols Sainz won the Dakar with a sort of EV race car from Audi. It does have a 2 liter motor that powers a generator to run electric motors. it also has batteries. Even if it is not full electric it is still an impressive accomplishment. That is pretty much how cars have always evolved. Race it learn and then sell it to the consumer.

I'm not an expert in this, and I don't even play one on TV, but isn't the overall safety of a lithium battery (the kind that power vehicles) very dependent on the quality of manufacture in order to avoid these types of fires? I would imagine there's a big gap in quality between the battery assembly in a Tesla and the ones you find in your basic POS electric scooter made in China. I've read about at least three different large scale fires in NYC involving e-bike stores and underground scooter factories. Low quality lithium batteries seem to present a very real hazard, and one that a lot of homes in the US could be facing without even knowing it (I bet a lot of garages in the US have a couple of those scooters or e-bikes sitting in them). Lots of Chinese manufacturing is substandard, but it rarely presents the sort of safety hazard that a poorly constructed lithium battery seems to.

It seems like, in this rush to adopt a new technology (especially when legislatures are adopting a "we need to be all-EV by such and such a date")
we might be ignoring some very basic safety issues with these batteries, especially when they're being manufactured under less than stringent manufacturing conditions.

RCinNC said:

I'm not an expert in this, and I don't even play one on TV, but isn't the overall safety of a lithium battery (the kind that power vehicles) very dependent on the quality of manufacture in order to avoid these types of fires? ...

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Absolutely. The cars really aren't as much an issue as people think, especially after the first 18 months. The per 100k number is 60.9 ICE fires per EV so an EV catching fire is still a bit like a man biting a dog o it goes on the news.

For tools, just stay with name brands and you'll generally be fine. Same with chargers matching the brand.

For e-bikes and scooters and other mobility devices, New York passed a law last year that only batteries with the UL approval can be sold. Because like you said, the cheap ones are giving the problems.

Believe it or not, vapes are probably the biggest problem because there are so many. It's to the point the Navy won't allow sailors to have them on ships. Too many catch fire in peoples' pockets because once again, they are using the cheapest batteries. Once burning in a pocket you can't get it out and are going to be injured.


They also occasionally explode while being used:


I've met two other retired investigators making a living by suing vape manufacturers.

Haste makes waste.

Sierra1 said:

Haste makes waste.

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Everybody wants cheap cheap cheap

Checkswrecks said:

Everybody wants cheap cheap cheap

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I admit, I look for the cheapest in anything. But I also look at the longevity/durability. Because if "cheap" has to be replaced over and over again, it stops being cheap. And if I would have spent the extra money in the first place, it would have saved me money. This is especially true with parts that are difficult to get at.

I always look for cheap too. I was told I am tight as the bark on a tree but I also look for quality and workmanship. That is what is getting hard to find these days. If the parts or service calls for expense and I understand that is going to be the best way in the long run. I have no issues getting higher priced products and services.

In the "practice what you preach" category, here's how I charge batteries. I simply put the charger in an old metal garbage can in the middle of the garage floor. If the worst happens there'll be some smoke but it's otherwise contained, only one battery, and can't light off anything else.