Will Yamaha Increase the S10 Power? If so, When?

[snakebitten]

I agree very much with your last summation, and slight clarification, of your opinion of additional hp from a future Tenere. And it likely WOULD be appreciated by MOST Tenere guys. Especially the one that have the tires mounted that could actually use the additional power.

But I'm, admittedly, in the minority. I am almost always shod with nobbies, regardless of my ratio of tarmac to dirt. So, my Tenere is self-straddled with a traction limitation that simply can't benefit much from more power.

Having said that, Im totally ok with Yamaha addressing minutely, "how" it puts that power down. So if in the future there are those kinds of refinements, Im thrilled.

Until then, I'll "farkle" in that direction if I desire. You know, "tuning" the power plant.

Yea, great thread!

 

[Dirt_Dad]

If, however, your thoughts run like this: (sorry Dirt Dad).

No worries.... ;D

 

[bigbob]

My personall thoughts and this in no way says anything about any other comments. I have a 2014 ES. Just had it broke in. Had to ride from Iowa to Milwaukee for a funeral (and wake!) The next day was heading to Southern MO (with a hangover) to spend some time with family. Stopped in Saint Louis for a picture (cant find the S10 at the arch) , gas, and a coke.

Anyway hit the road half asleep and this crotch rocket passes IN MY LANE. I was in my half and he took the other half. Now I normally say so what. But he woke me up. Switched from T to S and kept up. He had a camera on his head and I wish I knew who he was. Followed and passed him several times. He would pass on both the right and left shoulders. I passed him once and he lane split two cars side by side. Crazy. He waved to me as he got off the interstate (we were side by side at the time).

But to make this germane to the thread, I do not need any more motor. I just to ride this bike to what it can do!

 

[frez]

You have to consider it from Yamaha's point of view, ie would it generate more sales, or rather, enough more sales, and I have to think probably not. People seeking out and out power will go down the KTM route, and it's not power that makes people buy a GS rather than a S10.

There will be some evolution, but not revolution without a brand new model.

 

[copb8]

You have to consider it from Yamaha's point of view, ie would it generate more sales, or rather, enough more sales, and I have to think probably not. People seeking out and out power will go down the KTM route, and it's not power that makes people buy a GS rather than a S10.

There will be some evolution, but not revolution without a brand new model.

See, this is exactly why I think they NEED to do it. Otherwise it'll eventually become irrelevant in its segment and go away. They don't need to match the other bikes numbers to stay competitive, they just need to be in the same ballpark and then excel in ruggedness and reliability.

Look at the Porsche 911 which typically has less power than their direct competitors however they deliver a handling and reliable experience most can't meet and that's kept it relevant for 50 years. Yamaha has an exceptional reputation for quality, durability and reliability and people are willing to 'give up' something to have that. You just can't make that price too high as others up the ante.

BigBob, I can't say I've never enjoyed going toe-to-toe with another vehicle when out on public roads, maybe more than I should, but the moment it starts to involve the safety of others or the other guys starts to act like an idiot, I abort before he does something to an innocent that I could've avoided.

 

[Harry Dresden PI]

After lubing and tightening chains for 10s of years I started down the shaft drive.

I have owned a BMW GS and a Connie GTR1400 both have pluses and negative points over the S10 ES.

But here I am very happy for my needs riding the S10.

If I lived outside of Florida perhaps I would want more electrical power for heated gear and for climbing the interstate at high altitudes.

If I was a smaller rider many other rides would likely call to me, but at 6'3" 290 lbs, most bikes I sit on ,,, seem like toys ...

IMHO the S10 fits me and I feel like I am home when in the saddle ...

 

[JRE]

Little bit of a threadjack but Harry, you're about my size...have you had the chance to ride 2 up - how'd it go?

/threadjack

IMO yammy could stand to pull a few more ponies out of the engine if for nothing more than from a marketing standpoint. We all know there are guy who will look at this, the beemer, ktm etc and go with one of the bike simply due to the HP #'s (as stupid as that is). Selfishly, I want the S10 to be very attractive to buyer so they sell more and keep making them. The more on the road, the more and the cheaper the available parts ;D

Along with HP, gearing is critical. You can take a low HP engine and gear it so it has bottom end grunt AND plenty of juice to pass at highway speeds.

 

[EricV]

See, this is exactly why I think they NEED to do it. Otherwise it'll eventually become irrelevant in its segment and go away. They don't need to match the other bikes numbers to stay competitive, they just need to be in the same ballpark and then excel in ruggedness and reliability.

This reminds me of the endless discussions on the FJR forums about 6th gear being necessary for the FJR to compete in it's group of bikes. That's BS too.

Even KTM decided to just come out with the 1290 instead of trying to up-hype the 1190. After 15 years of whining by the masses in the US, the FJR still doesn't have a 6th gear. And it never needed one for those that understand gear ratios. Yamaha doesn't NEED to change a thing to stay relevant in the market. When was the last time you went to the dealer and they "upgraded" your firmware, then had to come out and tell you the bike wouldn't start or run and they have to call Yamaha to find out why, so you can't take your bike home? Gee, never. KTM has had to do that many times due to firmware and software glitches. Doesn't sound like a big plus to me.

And pushing the Hp up on the Super Ten is very likely not going to help "ruggedness and reliability". Note that in the EU, they are experimenting with the non-ES model being "lighter and faster" by deleting the passenger seat and center stand. And the center stand is probably the most sold oem accessory for those owners. Here in the US, the non-ES version still comes with the pillion seat and center stand. Guess they figured we wouldn't want to lose those items, but I'm at a loss to why they though the EU buyers would find that desirable?

Yamaha doesn't have much of a history of coming out with comparable, but upgraded bikes in the US. Yes, they did a couple of versions of the TDM and there was a Tenere 600, then the Super Tenere 750, but that was long ago before EFI and I just don't see them coming out with a Super Duper Tenere 1300+ cc bike.

 

[mrpete64]

I am sure that if this bike had 149 hp it still would not be enough to make people happy.

Mr. Pete------->
aging hippie

 

[olie]

I am sure that if this bike had 149 hp it still would not be enough to make people happy.

Mr. Pete------->
aging hippie

...sure... why not 150 HP ??

 

[BarkSlayer]

The only way for Yamaha Motor Corp. (and all other global manufacturing concerns for that matter) to make money is to set the tooling, stand back and pump out large numbers of the same thing - often over several model years. Change means cost, and cost is bad. With the modest updates we saw in 2014, I doubt the S-10 will change again until MY 2017, based on Yamaha's rather well established pattern in that regard. Ideally, the bike will lose some weight and be delivered in a much more spirited state of tune. As a 1200cc parallel twin however, there will be certain limitations from an engineering standpoint that will keep the Yamaha in a distinctly different performance class as the BMW S1000XR for example, and for what I consider good reasons. I didn't buy the Super Tenere because it was the lightest, fastest, best handling, most off-road capable adventure touring bike on the market. I bought it because all things considered, it delivered the most enjoyable ride experience for me versus other choices I had tried or considered. There are better choices for any one of those qualities in an open class adv-touring bike today. IMO, what we should be celebrating here is that we live in America...and we have a choice.

 

[Nooner]

I bought it because all things considered, it delivered the most enjoyable ride experience for me versus other choices I had tried or considered. There are better choices for any one of those qualities in an open class adv-touring bike today. IMO, what we should be celebrating here is that we live in America...and we have a choice.

I bought my Tenere because I felt it had the best bang for the buck. Period.

The Tenere was outclassed in weight, hp and features vs. the class standard (the GS). 2014's ES and Heated grips started to close the gap in the features dept, but there is still a deficit and the weight and hp were largely unchanged. For me, that gap is bridged by the reduced price and increased reliability, but harbor no doubts, if cost were not an object (which is the case for many in this segment) I'd be on the a GSW...

My must haves were:
Shaft Drive
ABS
Traction Control
Long Travel Suspension
HD Alternator
Reasonable wind protection

I still think the GS has the best overall package of features, and it'd take losing about 50 lbs and adding about 25 hp for me to change that opinion. Where the Tenere wins is with it's value proposition, and I don't know that that will ever be the most marketable position in the US while motorcycling is primarily a weekend/warm weather endeavor.

 

[Donk]

As I read your posts it does become clear to me that I may be barking up the wrong tree. Rasher nailed it that Yamaha chose a niche and is not trying to be all things to all people. I also realized that after 11 years of FJR ownership Yamaha didn't do hardly anything motor-wise and never upgraded to a 6 speed transmission, so why would I think they'd significantly re-engineer the S10, especially considering how much it contributes to their overall sales.

As far as being a horespower junkie, that a bit true. But I'm a car and track guy and while I have a decent horsepower it isn't nearly the fastest thing out there but it's reliable, raw and fast enough to scare you when pressed. That's what I ultimately would like my S10 to be.

The KTM thing is just a bit of flirtation for me. When I bought the S10 I was drooling over the Ducati 1200S Pikes Peak bike. But I knew reliability and service was going to be a bitch and that I'd be far to careful with a $20+K bike to really enjoy it off roads. I realize the same is true of the KTM but it doesn't hurt just to look and fantasize.

In the end the decision will be made once I'm down to just the S10 for some period of time. Will I miss the the FJR more than I think I will? I hope not. I like the potential of turning down any road that interests me even if that's not what I intended the ride to be when I left the house. With a bike like the FJR your committed to the tarmac for the whole ride.

PS: If you didn't catch it yet and you're looking for a pristine '13 FJR PM me!

I am looking for an '13 FJR. PM sent

On another note Yamaha is capable of producing horsepower and reliability as they wish. Just look at the new R1. S10 could use more power but I'm happy with mine and I am a hp junkie. I went back and forth between the KTM1190 and the '14ES. In the end the S10 won because I liked it better even with less power. I like shaft, cruise and the Dealers been great.

 

[shrekonwheels]

It is interesting, the Tenere has way more poop than those Hardley Davidsons everyone raves about but yea, it is a bit behind the competition.

Competition is what it really comes down to, Yami has been struggling with the sales aspect of the Tenere and with higher HP numbers, better advertising and probably the same gushing ratings then yea, it is basic economics that says the Tenere will go goodbye.

IMO I do not get the detuning bullshit, and I struggle to understand how someone messing around in a garage can somehow magically get 12 hp more with a mere "jumper mod" yet Yami Engineers need to spend tens of thousands more on redesigning the motor for a couple more HP.

Sounds like the only restructuring which needs to be done is canning some waste of money people in R&D.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Yamaha has excellent R&D engineering and you are totally barkng up the wrong tree to think otherwise. Further, a year or so after the bikes were introduced in Europe, a German owner was pulling over 130 hp from his. There is plenty of capability there.

What Yamaha also has is an incredible amount of market research capability. And those ate the people who the engineers listen to and design for. They knew they were going to put ridability over pure hp.

I've been told that the manufacturers consider 5,000 large bikes/year in the big bore flagships to be wildly successful and roughly a third of that will keep a model in production. sales of the FJR seem to support these numbers and I am willing to bet that Yamaha is selling more than a couple of thousand Teneres per year.

 

[Harry Dresden PI]

Little bit of a threadjack but Harry, you're about my size...have you had the chance to ride 2 up - how'd it go?

/threadjack

IMO yammy could stand to pull a few more ponies out of the engine if for nothing more than from a marketing standpoint. We all know there are guy who will look at this, the beemer, ktm etc and go with one of the bike simply due to the HP #'s (as stupid as that is). Selfishly, I want the S10 to be very attractive to buyer so they sell more and keep making them. The more on the road, the more and the cheaper the available parts ;D

Along with HP, gearing is critical. You can take a low HP engine and gear it so it has bottom end grunt AND plenty of juice to pass at highway speeds.

Wife has her own bike so outside of short visits to check our the rear seat no real significant rides. She does like the height and it has enough room, but no real news on two up from me.

 

[Rasher]

IMO I do not get the detuning bullshit, and I struggle to understand how someone messing around in a garage can somehow magically get 12 hp more with a mere "jumper mod" yet Yami Engineers need to spend tens of thousands more on redesigning the motor for a couple more HP.

Really :question:

Many of us have the dyno graphs to prove it.

The CJM mod you mention does add about 12BHP - but not to peak, but around 4,000rpm where the earlier bikes are restricted (Although it does nasty stuff to the time so a Flash is a better way)

An Arrow full system and a good flash / re-map will easily add 12 BHP to the bike, and give it a huge boost at the top end so it does not feel breathless towards the redline, as to why Yamaha don't do this with their millions of R&D budget is obvious to a fool....

...Emissions regulations, do you not think if they could fit a straight through set of header pipes with no Cats they would not do so :question:

Your looking at a saving of about 3kg, and a bulk purchase reduction of I would guess 80% - 90% without the cats and all the precious metals that entails.

To a lesser extent a lighter silencer would also save some cash, metal costs money - making a heavy bike is expensive, people think making a light bike costs money, but in reality making a bike very light does, having a load of extra metal (including precious metals) to get though various rules is not cheap - and the R&D cost to pass these tests AND keep the bike at an acceptable cost is huge.

After bunging up the downpipe and tailpipe they still need to do more for these rules.....

And in comes the dreaded O2 sensors and piss weak closed loop fueling, with a load of sensors and electronics needing to be programmed to keep the bike unhealthily lean whilst avoiding total engine meltdown in a bid to comply with all the latest rules.....

This probably burns a load of budget as well.


May even be after all that the early bikes still did not comply and the low gear throttle restrictions were needed on top of everything else, cannot be sure, but I do not see why Yamaha, purveyors of the R1 would otherwise decide a 110BHP bike weighing over 250kg may be a bit scary without such restrictions :


And back to the Garage tuners, well really it tends to be flash vendors and tuners as well as owners who swap exhausts, flash the bikes and fit power commanders.

I am about to go to CJS Racing to get my bike custom flashed on the Dyno, I have Arrow headers which added 6BHP with no other mods, and an ECU-U flash, but the fueling is not perfect and CJS will disable the O2 sensors and aim for the optimal A/F ration across all throttle opening / rev combinations - something I am sure Yamaha could easily do as well, but only if they intended to sell the bike for off-road use on private land only, which I would assume may limit the sales potential.

I am already over 10BHP up on stock, and hope expect to find another couple of BHP through having my bike optimised, the fuelling will be perfected to my bike and the mods, but even a stock bikes vary, all the slight differences in manufacturing tolerances on the hundreds of engine parts mean no two bikes are identical, and even each cylinder will be slightly different on the same bike - so mine will have each cylinder individually mapped, which according to CJS can make a big difference on some models.

I am sure Yamaha could also map each bike as it came off the production line, if they invested in a hundred or so Dyno's and paid operators to spend several hours with each bike before it left the factory, not so sure most owners would want to bear this additional cost - and as the bike still needs to comply with the regs it would still be nowhere near as good as a decent tuner could get it in his small workshop.


Yamaha have to put the R&D into making a decent bike that complies with differing regulations all over the world and can still be manufactured at a price people can afford. The current S10 engine is unlikely to get much more powerful, there may be another 5-6 BHP that can be had within the confines Yamaha have to work, but to go after the KTM's it would have to be a new engine from the ground up that revs far higher, in effect this would entirely change the character of the bike.....

I think those who reckon the bike will stay fairly unchanged for a few years are right, and at some point perhaps they will build an entirely new S10, but it would be as different to the current one as the latest Fireblade is to the original model.

 

[frez]

It's all wishful thinking. Of course Yamaha could throw the kitchen sink at it and come up with something as powerful and kitted as the KTM 1290, but then it would cost 50% more and that would put it out of reach for many here, as well as turning it into a completely different beast.

 

[copb8]

Are owners of the new '14s and 15's getting the same gains over stock that earlier owners get with flashes, headers, intakes and pipes? Or will a tuned early bike be as powerful and torquey as a new tuned bike?

 

[frez]

Yamaha only claim an extra 2bhp peak with the new model over the old, and since you can get around 10bhp with a tuned full exhaust system I'd say a tuned old model is more powerful than a stock old model. Would a tuned new model be more powerful than a tuned old model; probably, but not hugely.