Why the GS is a better bike.

[arjayes]

Patent grants 2012

Japan 274,791
USA 253,155
China 217,105
Sth Korea 113,467
Europe 65,665
Russia 32,880
Canada 21,819
Australia 17,724
France 12,913
Mexico 12,358

Interesting stats, but would be more interesting if broken down into categories. The top four countries are all major producers of electronics, and electronics is a field that generates huge numbers of patents. Also note that many/most large foreign manufacturers have design centers in the USA (and other countries). No way to tell from the stats where the innovations in the patents originated. I bet a lot more originate in the USA than the stats above show. Of course a huge chunk of engineers in the USA are foreign-born, but often USA-educated. You know what they say ... lies, damn lies, and statistics!

Funny that China generated so many patents since they have a history of completely ignoring patents and copyrights.

 

[GrahamD]

I should amend my earlier remarks to say that the Japanese haven't been great innovators when it comes to vehicle design, but they have been world leaders in manufacturing innovation.

I remember reading about the list of patents for the original Lexus and most of it was about patents in things like manufacturing technologies. Things that resulted in perfect shut lines, sandwich panel construction etc.

But just remember BMW's fancy bike suspension is English / US in origin as well. The Ernest Earles designed system Early on. Telelever from Saxon-Motodd UK, and then ripped of Hossacks (USA?) for the duolever.

And what is really so special about the boxer engine that would need patents?

Honda was making water cooled wet clutch, integrated transmission, shaft driven boxer engines in 1975, reliably for the time and have been doing it ever since.

The fancy electronic suspension is third party and has a history in cars. Citroen etc started mass production with Hydropneumatic suspension. Collin Chapman (UK) was involved early. 1987 Mitsubishi Galant "Dynamic ECS" was the first "E-Suspension" into production and I don't know who supplied that. So there was a whole patent history before you saw it on any bike.

The first MC ABS was a Bosch based thing from memory, (FAG Kugelfische and BMW for Motorbikes) and was originally designed by the French in the 1920's, Dunlop in the UK were mucking around in the 1950's etc. So when patents were granted who knows, but BMW were the first to give it a go. Honda and YAMAHA were next four years later, but it BMW probably produced a few patents for MC use specifically.

And the Japanese didn't really hit the big time with patents until the eighties from memory. I think most of the the patents were probably already done for many vehicle systems by then anyway.

And things like Nikasil (Mahle - Germany) suffered a bit from corrosion so other patents are produced to solve that problem (Suzuki - SCEM) etc. So there is not just one bore coating patent just as one example.

And I bet YAMAHA has some patents about "engine Sound" after the development of the Lexus LFA engine since they probably figured that since Harley allegedly has a "Potato sound" patent, why not, since silly patents are the norm these days.

 

[Donk]

"I'd like to see you adjust your manual suspension with a wrench and screwdriver while riding along at 60 mph. "

If you actually adjust it correctly the first time, there is no need to adjust it at 60, 80, 20, 90, or any other speed. Unless you drastically change your weight, the suspension works at all speeds if adjusted correctly once.

How about if something drastically changes like the road surface you're riding on? I bought the ES because I figured I might as well go all the way with the new bike purchase. I never expected to use the electronic suspension. Then, when going down a bad section of washboard road I remembered I had it, hit a button or two and life and the ride improved dramatically.

That said if you're on this forum you are probably partial to the S10 over BMWs. Me, I'm a Triumph guy and I love my S10. Getting to be my favorite ride.

 

[TXTenere]

Oh man you really want to get the BMW crowd wound up point out that survey, my goodness you should have seen the "reasons" why the results were so poor. BMW riders seem to think they are statisically different from the rest of the motorcycling population. "We ride more so more issues will happen", "We ride harder so that causes more issues" omg excuse after excuse, BMW owners are beginning to seem like a cult...

I have had so many BMW riders tell me that there are more problems with their bikes because the BMW riders typically put more miles on their bike than other brands. Finally, one day when I had some time to spare, I averaged out the age of 50 pre-owned BMW bikes online, and added up the total miles on those bikes. I divided that by 50, and came up with an average yearly mileage of just over 4000 miles. In my opinion, that does not seem to be more miles than the riders of other brands of motorcycles put on their bikes. I averaged other brands as well, and came up with around 3500.

I have approximately 60,000 fairly trouble free BMW miles, but still based on the experience of others (owners of both brands), trust my Yamaha much more than I ever did my BMW.

 

[mrpete64]

The logic of a BMW being better is simple...it costs more!

Mr. Pete------->
aging hippie

 

[clint64]

How about if something drastically changes like the road surface you're riding on? I bought the ES because I figured I might as well go all the way with the new bike purchase. I never expected to use the electronic suspension. Then, when going down a bad section of washboard road I remembered I had it, hit a button or two and life and the ride improved dramatically.

That said if you're on this forum you are probably partial to the S10 over BMWs. Me, I'm a Triumph guy and I love my S10. Getting to be my favorite ride.

From personal experience, with a properly adjusted premium suspension I find very few times that I would need to adjust the suspension. I have had ES on a previous bike and I am much more pleased with my current setup but I understand those that it would serve better. If you are constantly changing your load then it would be very helpful feature to have. I think ES will really be the ticket when the after market has systems use the factory controls but built with better components.

 

[oldbear]

With BMW you have to remember that, in the not too distant past, BMW DID build what were commonly considered "the" most reliable bikes out there. For years they dominated long distance riding. Sadly that seem to have changed in the past decade or so, BUT the tradition lives on. Folks buy the tradition and sadly not the reality. Also, the competition has gotten MUCH better than it was 30 years ago. I sincerely wish BMW would get their act together once more and build machines with the reliability to be world leaders. I too am a former BMW rider...liked the bike, hated the service at the dealers in the area, so I swore off the koolaid. ::022::

 

[Koinz]

With BMW you have to remember that, in the not too distant past, BMW DID build what were commonly considered "the" most reliable bikes out there. For years they dominated long distance riding. Sadly that seem to have changed in the past decade or so, BUT the tradition lives on. Folks buy the tradition and sadly not the reality. Also, the competition has gotten MUCH better than it was 30 years ago. I sincerely wish BMW would get their act together once more and build machines with the reliability to be world leaders. I too am a former BMW rider...liked the bike, hated the service at the dealers in the area, so I swore off the koolaid. ::022::

Same Here. I love the old BMW's. Looked at purchasing a newer one on more than one occasion. Got turned off by the noise of the realiability issues and went looking in another direction. Still ride with predominently BMW riders because of their Long Distance prowess. I continue to review their bikes and who knows, if I regain my confidence in their reliability one of them might end up in my stable. Just not at this time. I'm not a Brand Loyalist, I am a Motorcycle Enthusiast. ::008::

 

[gsinnc]

I'm tempted to track failure rates off threads from Advrider. I see so many people with stranded bikes totally screwed either from a bad dealer to poor manufacturing processes to just plain defects. I am following six at the moment. These aren't little issues these are major catastrophic failures. The BMW crowd just keeps fixing their bikes complaining to BMWNA and crying like babies if you point out to them these major failures. That crowd is so emotionally invested/enmeshed in their ideals that BMW is god they simply cannot see the forest. Its quite sad really, cause BMW could be a great company but their customer base provides cover for them (in general). I believe BMW will continue to have these catastophic failures/recalls because of the weak kneed customer base who is in love with the idea that BMW's are quality.

I spent 6 years with an oilhead I've earned the right to poo-poo BMW's so there::024::

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1000546 - 2014 GSA failed clutch being rplaced underr warranty

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=998831 - GS not sure what year, final drive fails (OEM Failure) goes to a dealership in Florida, they replace it and damage internals in the process guy is seriuosly screwed... sad...

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1001842 - New GS's not starting - this is another "characteristic" which will mean BMW will do nothing... ha ha...

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1001807 - 2009 GSA final drive failure, How many of you have had to replace the final drive on your car??? BMW doesnt know how to build, design, and manufacture a final drive that won't grenade on you, this has been going on since 2000 and many BMW owners are resigned to replace final drives, wfh???

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243924 - BMW motorcycle owner want to lawyer up, good times...

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1000366 - 2007 GSA 4 (FOUR) final drive failures in 42K miles, jesus h. well you known who... SERIUOSLY FOUR FINAL DRIVES!!!!

I rest my case... Oh and there's more but I'll probably get in trouble for posting these links so....

I guess I should consider myself lucky that since 2000 (14 years) on 5 different BMW's (R1100RT, R1150GS, K1200LT, R1200RT and R1200GSA) I have never had an issue and never been stranded. Never had any surging and no FD failures. In addition my riding buddies have never had and major failures. My one riding buddy on a K1600GT has had some recalls and is on his 3rd switch gear but then that is a new model and for me I assume some bugs to be worked out. Have owned Yamaha, Honda, and Suzuki also and ALL have been great with no issues. My favorite bike ever is probably my 1996 Yamaha Royal Star Tour Classic. One of the reasons I move to BMW was because of crappy dealer experiences with the Metric Dealers. I really enjoy and value the dealer experience with BMW as they truly view me as a long term customer.

 

[Karson]

then that is a new model and for me I assume some bugs to be worked out.

I think that is the common reason many move away from BMW land. A $20k bike shouldn't have "bugs", first year or not, especially ones that could cost you your life.

 

[MarkM]

I bought a used 2013 GSW yesterday. Today I rode it 60 miles and it did not break or strand me. ::001::

In my test rides of both the GS and the ST, I liked the GS a little better, and I've got a terrific dealer nearby. I would probably be just as happy with the ST, but the dealers around here are not as good. For me, the GS is the better bike. There's no single bike that's best for everyone. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

 

[gsinnc]

I think that is the common reason many move away from BMW land. A $20k bike shouldn't have "bugs", first year or not, especially ones that could cost you your life.

While I agree it seems like they ALL do. I could go down the list on well known recalls. And when you think about it it really makes sense as no matter how much testing and planning the manufacturers do until they bikes are "real world" tested they don't know how they will perform over the longer term. In addition manufacturers seem to be pushed to get new products out. Look at Harley ... and even with the success of the Project Rushmore they had some recalls lately. A lot of things "should not" be .... but that is probably not reality.

 

[gsinnc]

I bought a used 2013 GSW yesterday. Today I rode it 60 miles and it did not break or strand me. ::001::

In my test rides of both the GS and the ST, I liked the GS a little better, and I've got a terrific dealer nearby. I would probably be just as happy with the ST, but the dealers around here are not as good. For me, the GS is the better bike. There's no single bike that's best for everyone. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Here too! ::008::

 

[Andylaser]

If you want a BMW, you need to speak to Gary Burton. http://www.bamw.co.uk/index.html
He restores old Air Heads (properly) and they are considered far better than when they were new.
If you are interested, take a number as the waiting list is quite long. But it does give you the time to save up the not inconsiderable cost.

My personal opinion is after the Air heads, BMW went down the crapper.

 

[mrpete64]

I think, for me, one of the problems after owning four BMW's is that there are no dealers in the west...until you hit California. A large section of the U.S. has no place to get your bike serviced/fixed. One can argue that this is "really" not an issue until you are sitting along the road trying to get your bike to someone who can fix it.

One big advantage to a Yamaha is that dealers are everywhere! Often, as you know, there are usually a Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki dealer all in one building.

BMW's are great bikes. No doubt about it. They get great reviews. I was seriously thinking about the new '14 RT. Went to see one..sat on it...could not ride it. Rear shock issue. It must be hard for BMW to be getting stellar reviews on this bike and not have one to sell. In two years there will be a some good deals on them on Craig's list!

I swore I would never own a Tenere. Went to buy a new vstrom 1000...drove the new Tenere ES..."loved" it. I was surprised how well it handles for a 600 pound bike. Since, at 67, I do not do any "offroad" stuff any more this will make a great bike to ride to Colorado, in September, to my 50th high school reunion. Cruise is...wonderful!!

Mr. Pete-------->
aging hippie

 

[Koinz]

I think that is the common reason many move away from BMW land. A $20k bike shouldn't have "bugs", first year or not, especially ones that could cost you your life.

::026:: Not only that, but these bugs also become a maintenance nightmare for dealers and owners alike. If you don't have a dealer that keeps up with all of the unadvertised service bulletins, it makes it that much harder to resolve an issue.

 

[Big Blu]

::026:: Not only that, but these bugs also become a maintenance nightmare for dealers and owners alike. If you don't have a dealer that keeps up with all of the unadvertised service bulletins, it makes it that much harder to resolve an issue.

The same can be said of Yamaha dealers. I seem to recall several inmates here seeking advice on dealers they can "trust" to due a valve adjustment on their S10. I'm in that situation myself, not many S10 sold in S. Florida and the 3 dealers local to me do not even stock S10's, so little or no experience working on them. The valve adjustment on a BMW is simple enough that I'm able to do it with confidence, no so with the S10 so it cost $300-$500 to have it done by folks I don't trust. The two BMW dealerships nearby have always treated me well and I have trust in them.

Paul

 

[clint64]

The same can be said of Yamaha dealers. I seem to recall several inmates here seeking advice on dealers they can "trust" to due a valve adjustment on their S10. I'm in that situation myself, not many S10 sold in S. Florida and the 3 dealers local to me do not even stock S10's, so little or no experience working on them. The valve adjustment on a BMW is simple enough that I'm able to do it with confidence, no so with the S10 so it cost $300-$500 to have it done by folks I don't trust. The two BMW dealerships nearby have always treated me well and I have trust in them.

Paul

Paul, most of the Yamaha dealers in Atlanta have not sold a great many S10s as well. We are lucky in a sense, that at least 2 of the dealers each have at least one very good tech. As such, I am not worried about finding a dealer for a valve check. I think the key to multi line dealers is to find out who are the good techs and make sure they are the ones working on the bike.

I think that you should ride what you enjoy. Life is too short to do otherwise. Each person needs to evaluate what's important to them and then decide. For me it was not a money issue but having had a less than stellar relationship with my last BMW, I did not want the possible hassle.

 

[gsinnc]

The same can be said of Yamaha dealers. I seem to recall several inmates here seeking advice on dealers they can "trust" to due a valve adjustment on their S10. I'm in that situation myself, not many S10 sold in S. Florida and the 3 dealers local to me do not even stock S10's, so little or no experience working on them. The valve adjustment on a BMW is simple enough that I'm able to do it with confidence, no so with the S10 so it cost $300-$500 to have it done by folks I don't trust. The two BMW dealerships nearby have always treated me well and I have trust in them.

Paul

Well put ... and when you have someone doing a 5 hour valve adjustment (YES .. that is the time it takes on the S10) knowing how complex it must be ... not trusting the tech would certainly keep me up nights. WIth BMW's or Harleys for that matter you know when you bring your bike in they have worked on more than one of your model.

 

[fredz43]

Well put ... and when you have someone doing a 5 hour valve adjustment (YES .. that is the time it takes on the S10) knowing how complex it must be ... not trusting the tech would certainly keep me up nights. WIth BMW's or Harleys for that matter you know when you bring your bike in they have worked on more than one of your model.

5 hour valve adjustment is not written in stone on the S10. It depends on the skill of the tech and how many, if any valves need adjusted. I had two intakes with too much clearance, all else were fine and it took the tech 3 hours.