Why the GS is a better bike.

[longride]

"I'd like to see you adjust your manual suspension with a wrench and screwdriver while riding along at 60 mph. "

If you actually adjust it correctly the first time, there is no need to adjust it at 60, 80, 20, 90, or any other speed. Unless you drastically change your weight, the suspension works at all speeds if adjusted correctly once.

 

[XtreemLee]

We should make a list of every know major failure of BMW (heck let's really rock'em sock'em and include their cars)

I'll start

1996-2001 R1100 RT "oilhead":
Fueling design issue due to U.S. emmisions. Vehicle surges and hunts for correct mixture while getting info from one lambda sensor (it's a twin you know).
Final drive failures commonplace, usually failing outside of warranty (45K to 80K)
Transmission failures as common as the final drive failures.

The fueling issue can be correct by purchasing eurospec exhaust, potentiometer and cat code plug. Then half fooling the machine and half fine tuning the beast you can get it to have decent drivability. I estimate I put $3000 and 160 hours into learning and fiddling with the beast half that just taking plastic off and on...
Trannys and final drives $$$

Next...

 

[MarkM]

"I'd like to see you adjust your manual suspension with a wrench and screwdriver while riding along at 60 mph. "

If you actually adjust it correctly the first time, there is no need to adjust it at 60, 80, 20, 90, or any other speed. Unless you drastically change your weight, the suspension works at all speeds if adjusted correctly once.

You've obviously given a lot of thought to this. I guess we should consider the idea of ESA thoroughly discredited.

 

[stevent]

You've obviously given a lot of thought to this. I guess we should consider the idea of ESA thoroughly discredited.

Not discredited by any means but more of a frill than a necessity. I admit I've never tried to adjust my standard suspension on the fly however I've never felt the need to either. I spent a few minutes a day dialing the suspension in when I got the bike and haven't really had to touch it since. I had a GS and K-GT with ESA and while it was fun to play with I can't say it added any real value. If my wife goes with me on the Tenny I just crank on a click or two of preload on the rear shock while she's getting her helmet on, it takes more time to describe it than to do it and I don't have to worry about horrendous replacement costs if the ESA failed or flat wore out like the Beemers. I have more faith in the Yamaha ESA but I still see it as a frill and an unnecessary complication to a relativly uncomplicated bike.

I still owe you that beer Longride......

 

[MarkM]

No question, ESA is not necessary and it adds complexity that can result in failure eventually, regardless of the brand. I've never had it, but it seems like it would be very convenient when adding a passenger especially. Maybe nice on a rough road too by applying softer damping, or when switching from highway to twisty roads or dirt. I have not decided whether I'd rather have the ES version or stick with standard shocks. Either way I want heated grips for year-round comfort.

Seems like there are plenty of former BMW riders here. So, how much front brake-dive do you get on an S10 compared to a BMW with Telelever front suspension?

 

[oldbear]

"I'd like to see you adjust your manual suspension with a wrench and screwdriver while riding along at 60 mph. "

If you actually adjust it correctly the first time, there is no need to adjust it at 60, 80, 20, 90, or any other speed. Unless you drastically change your weight, the suspension works at all speeds if adjusted correctly once.

What he said. If you get the suspension set up correctly why would you choose to mess with it unless something significant changes?

 

[XtreemLee]

What he said. If you get the suspension set up correctly why would you choose to mess with it unless something significant changes?

I make adjustments as the terrain and my riding changes.

 

[adventurelounger]

This may be slightly to the side of the topic, and I may have mentioned this once before in another post, but there's something to be said for pushing technology to the point that it functions invisibly, like magic. Which is what Yamaha has done with the SupetTen. Do you really truly give a shit about inverse telelever hyperbolic traction metering or tri-iridium spaceflek cylinder coatings? Do you really? They're both great looking bikes. They're both purpose built for fun. One has a dramatically lower failure rate, and actually costs less. Voila!

 

[GrahamD]

tri-iridium spaceflek cylinder coatings?

Oooooohh... tri-iridium spaceflek cylinder coating!!! 8) ::26::

 

[gsinnc]

Oooooohh... tri-iridium spaceflek cylinder coating!!! 8) ::26::

Along with an intergalicitc flux capacitor!

 

[stevent]

Seems like there are plenty of former BMW rider her. So, how much front brake-dive do you get on an S10 compared to a BMW with Telelever front suspension?

Not really a significant amount, I increased the spring compression and damping on the forks by a few lines and left the rebound alone, same with the rear to compensate for my well marbled physique and the bikes pretty stable over most dips and bumps. I honestly didn't notice a lot of difference with the telelever, maybe a little less dive but not much. I think it's a clever design and a nice effort but in my experience it doesn't really add any value over a well sorted telescopic fork and rear shock. In fact I think the single sided swingarm is a better innovation because it makes tire changes easier and that's been around for ever.

 

[Salmon Sam]

Didn't Moto Guzzi invent the single-sided swing arm? That's the point: the Japanese are better refiners of existing technology to make it reliable and "bullet proof". The Europeans are better innovators. Is this statement really true, though, or just dogma? I guess someone could tally up all the innovations coming from each and see. It's not like Yamaha hasn't come up with innovations of their own over the years. So the gist of the article is that by buying tried and true, well-honed technology, we stifle or bias efforts away from new sh** in favor of refinements in old technology. The rotary engine and rotary valves are technologies that make more sense than the piston and traditional valves, but can't come close to how the piston engine has been honed over the last 100 years or so.

Now with that said, as a consumer, I am not interested in contributing to the big picture. I want reliability. That is very high in my priority list and hence: ::022::. However, I can see why some would love to try new sh** despite the risks and potential down time for recalls, in-the-shop, etc. I love new sh** too, but ...

 

[BravoBravo]

Didn't Moto Guzzi invent the single-sided swing arm? That's the point: the Japanese are better refiners of existing technology to make it reliable and "bullet proof". The Europeans are better innovators. Is this statement really true, though, or just dogma? I guess someone could tally up all the innovations coming from each and see. It's not like Yamaha hasn't come up with innovations of their own over the years. So the gist of the article is that by buying tried and true, well-honed technology, we stifle or bias efforts away from new sh** in favor of refinements in old technology. The rotary engine and rotary valves are technologies that make more sense than the piston and traditional valves, but can't come close to how the piston engine has been honed over the last 100 years or so.

Now with that said, as a consumer, I am not interested in contributing to the big picture. I want reliability. That is very high in my priority list and hence: ::022::. However, I can see why some would love to try new sh** despite the risks and potential down time for recalls, in-the-shop, etc. I love new sh** too, but ...

I have heard it said that the Japanese invent nothing, but perfect everything. I believe there is some truth to this. Reliability is a key issue for me too, having owned a Moto Guzzi Stelvio prior to my Super Ten...

-Bruce

 

[MarkM]

I have heard it said that the Japanese invent nothing, but perfect everything. I believe there is some truth to this. Reliability is a key issue for me too, having owned a Moto Guzzi Stelvio prior to my Super Ten.

Reminds me of the saying, "the Japanese are the best damn Germans ever invented."

 

[Ramseybella]

Didn't Yamaha apply the first Mono Shock from Lucien Tilkiens design in 1973?

 

[GrahamD]

I have heard it said that the Japanese invent nothing, but perfect everything. I believe there is some truth to this. Reliability is a key issue for me too, having owned a Moto Guzzi Stelvio prior to my Super Ten...

-Bruce

Patent grants 2012

Japan 274,791
USA 253,155
China 217,105
Sth Korea 113,467
Europe 65,665
Russia 32,880
Canada 21,819
Australia 17,724
France 12,913
Mexico 12,358

 

[Scoobynut]

Very interesting, Graham, and a little surprising I have to say. I should amend my earlier remarks to say that the Japanese haven't been great innovators when it comes to vehicle design, but they have been world leaders in manufacturing innovation. Not to mention, what they have been able to accomplish with very few native natural resources is nothing less than astounding. As I understand it they import the great majority of raw materials from elsewhere. Also astounding the Japanese have 4 times the number of patent grants as the Euros and that the free Koreans have almost twice as many...

 

[Salmon Sam]

Good one, Graham! Too bad we can't carve out the motorcycle ones.
Is there objective information and metrics on reliability besides that Consumer's Report? I love objectivity slicing through all the passion.

 

[XtreemLee]

I'm tempted to track failure rates off threads from Advrider. I see so many people with stranded bikes totally screwed either from a bad dealer to poor manufacturing processes to just plain defects. I am following six at the moment. These aren't little issues these are major catastrophic failures. The BMW crowd just keeps fixing their bikes complaining to BMWNA and crying like babies if you point out to them these major failures. That crowd is so emotionally invested/enmeshed in their ideals that BMW is god they simply cannot see the forest. Its quite sad really, cause BMW could be a great company but their customer base provides cover for them (in general). I believe BMW will continue to have these catastophic failures/recalls because of the weak kneed customer base who is in love with the idea that BMW's are quality.

I spent 6 years with an oilhead I've earned the right to poo-poo BMW's so there::024::

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1000546 - 2014 GSA failed clutch being rplaced underr warranty

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=998831 - GS not sure what year, final drive fails (OEM Failure) goes to a dealership in Florida, they replace it and damage internals in the process guy is seriuosly screwed... sad...

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1001842 - New GS's not starting - this is another "characteristic" which will mean BMW will do nothing... ha ha...

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1001807 - 2009 GSA final drive failure, How many of you have had to replace the final drive on your car??? BMW doesnt know how to build, design, and manufacture a final drive that won't grenade on you, this has been going on since 2000 and many BMW owners are resigned to replace final drives, wfh???

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243924 - BMW motorcycle owner want to lawyer up, good times...

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1000366 - 2007 GSA 4 (FOUR) final drive failures in 42K miles, jesus h. well you known who... SERIUOSLY FOUR FINAL DRIVES!!!!

I rest my case... Oh and there's more but I'll probably get in trouble for posting these links so....

 

[XtreemLee]

Good one, Graham! Too bad we can't carve out the motorcycle ones.
Is there objective information and metrics on reliability besides that Consumer's Report? I love objectivity slicing through all the passion.

Oh man you really want to get the BMW crowd wound up point out that survey, my goodness you should have seen the "reasons" why the results were so poor. BMW riders seem to think they are statisically different from the rest of the motorcycling population. "We ride more so more issues will happen", "We ride harder so that causes more issues" omg excuse after excuse, BMW owners are beginning to seem like a cult...