Trying to gauge how "bad" anything other than pure road tires are on pavement

[Bushyar15]

So, I'm still rolling on the stock Battlewings which are great for road, and aired down aren't too bad on well maintained fire roads. I read all these articles/posts that say things like the heidenaus suck on wet pavement, and the TKC80s are horrible on wet pavement, etc…

What I'm trying to determine is; What does that mean? Does that mean 75 on the freeway (if thats what the traffic is going) and its wet and raining, thats too fast? Does that mean in a straight-line its fine, but don't' lean it over much when its raining?

I get that everything is a compromise and tire choice depends on what you will primarily ride on.

Living here in CO, there are many great "off-road" routes (so I've read as I've not gone on any yet). But to get there and back you've got to get on the highway. And we get afternoon thunderstorms that just dump buckets sometimes…. So trying to figure out what to do…

I've got years of road-riding and road-racing so I probably put more trust in my tires than I should… I tend to ride my bikes pretty hard through the corners. As an example, when I got my ST and took it on its first ride through the mountains, there were no more "chicken strips" or the molding nubs on the edges of the tire after only a couple hours. I don't try, but leaning a bike way over into a corner is very comfortable to me.. on the dry or on dedicated rain tires….

Any advice would be appreciated

 

[trikepilot]

The concept of "absolute" tire performance is sooooo subjective to wide array of parameters. You are gonna get a ton of opinions here.

Me, I am tire agnostic. I have never had a street bike with street tires. I started on a KLR with 50/50 tires and quickly gravitated to D606s and just rode the snot out of them - aqsphalt and dirt. Then I got the SuperTen and it likely had OEMs or similar. After a few K's, I switched to K60's and rode them like I stole them - never noticing any difference or any limitations. I am now at the end of service on a BB rear that was flat out awesome. It is maybe the knobbiest tire that you can buy for the Tenere (or maybe the Mitas e09 that goers on next!) and I dragged boot edges and pegs FAR more often on this tire than any of my non-knobbies. However, it is super soft and grippy so the trade-off is that it is cooked at 2500 miles.

There are times when I wonder if my naivete will get me in trouble but more often than not I appreciate that it simply keeps me oblivious to the tire battles out there. I am sure that you'll get a bunch of tire opinions from this post but the bottom line is that you'll likely just have to start trudging through the options to see what works for you. But if you ride dirt and gravel very much, I strongly urge you to try the BB's to see what you think. They are relatively cheap (approx 105$) and with a short lifespan - you are not stuck with them for long.

 

[markjenn]

The only dirtish tire I've used on a S10 is a TKC80. They certainly don't inspire as much confidence on the road as 90-10 tires like the BWs, but once you get used to the different feel, you can push them pretty hard..... on good/dry pavement, I've scraped the pegs quite a few times even with the suspension on max preload. But they sure don't feel as secure. On wet pavement, again, I don't think they're as good, but they're not THAT bad. Saying a TKC80 is "horrible" on wet pavement is being a bit drama-queen'ish, in my opinion. I've ridden in all-day rain on TKC's without issue without any special considerations.

All this said, I think 90-10 tires suit the bike best, at least for how most of us ride. I'd rather have the good pavement performance and nice handling of 90-10 tires and just accept that I can't tackle serious sand, mud, or steep rocky climbs. The times I need TKC80s in the dirt are the times I'd rather turn around rather than run the economic and health risks of riding a 650-lb bike in bad off-road situations.

- Mark

 

[pub610]

In the eight months I've owned my STen, I've covered almost 19,000 miles -- that includes a fair amount of rain, rain and wind, rain and hail and wind, and -- of course -- hot and dry. I have a lot of confidence in K76s and Anakee3s -- less in the K60s but maybe that's really a lack of confidence in my own abilities. The aired-down K76s were fine in the mud on the Top of the World Hwy. (though it wore them out) so with what I ride, the Heidenau K76 is all the dirt/gravel tire I need. And it works in the rain.
The Anakee3 worked well for me in Arkansas baby-heads and it probably a little smoother on pavement than the K76.

I'd be comfortable with either one in almost any condition. I can't address riding in deep sand. yet.

 

[scott123007]

I agree wholeheartedly with what Trikepilot and Mark have to say but will add the following...
As with any forum, we are all a bunch of opinions behind a keyboard. Until you actually get to meet and ride with someone on here, you don't know what level of rider they are compared to your ability, so when you read one of those opinions (just like mine) it's just that. When someone says they are, or were, a roadracer, it is generic at best. You've got guys that Club raced like Dallara, and guys that raced AMA Pro like Firefight 911. They are both roadracers, but you get the point...

Now that we have that covered, I will say this. I only have 30,000 miles on my bike but I have tried 6 different brands of tires on it just to see how much of a difference there is. If you are riding "really tight" twisties it doesn't matter what kind of tire is on your bike. Almost any tire out there is capable of leaning over to the pegs in tight corners as long as your skill set permits. As far as driving out of tight corners, who gives a crap, the bike has traction control. Once you wrap your head around that, you can screw it on as hard as you want and you won't lose either end. The front end is too heavy to be overcome by the bikes so-so power if you have the best street tires on it (PR-3 or 4), and if you don't, the TC will kick in and mellow the acceleration, before you are in any danger of losing the front if you have something like, say, K-60's. The real issue is with faster sweepers. That's where all hell breaks loose depending on the tire. So, you have to ask yourself what kind of riding you like most, and how much you're willing to compromise whenever you are not doing that kind of riding. The absolute mileage king of all rear tires is the K-60 (and yes, you can go as fast in a straight line as the bike can go, with it). That tire can be paired up with almost any front you desire, (a street tire for a more solid feel on road, or a knobby if you are going to do a lot of muddy off road) Yes, the K-60's not the best in the wet, but TC is your friend so just leave it on TC1 when you're on the road. You can go as fast in the really tight stuff as the bike is capable of (assuming "you" are, lol) but when the twisties become sweepers, your aggression level has to subside a little because TC can only do so much against inertia. As far as the K-60 being an off road tire, it is above average in the loamy stuff and some mud and sand, but if you are riding mostly mud and sand, throw on a set of TKC80's or Kenda Big Blocks and take it down a notch or two on all but the tightest of twisties when you're on the street. Mileage on knobbies is shit no matter where you ride, though. On hard pack and rocky terrain, all of the street tires (front and rear)work as well or better actually, than the more aggressive tread pattern tires because there is more contact area, with the PR3 being my new favorite all around street AND trail tire (for everything but extreme mud). You can hammer it on the street in fast or slow corners on dry roads, and ride with confidence in the rain. The biggest surprise is how well it works off road. Except for extremely soft soil or mud that knobbies can bite into, I'll take the PR3 (haven't tried the PR4 yet)over anything else.
out there. And the mileage is decent too.
You sound like an experienced rider and will surely make your own decisions when it comes to tire choices, but I hope this has helped you at least a little bit.

 

[Twisties]

The K60's are a reasonable 50/50 tire. I ran two sets of them on the ST, plus some miles on an another bike. They do not give top level performance in sporty riding, especially as they wear. I've ridden about 6k miles on them in wet conditions and have no particular qualms about it, but they are not at the level of the Bridgestones. You will certainly feel it when you cross a wet paint stripe.

 

[Ramseybella]

I can't say much on Dual sport rubber I have the 18"x21" Excel rims but I have used Heidenau K60 Scout rear and three brands of DOT rated Motocross knobby tires.
Now I am only running Pirelli Mt90 Scorpions.
What I found with aggressive rubbers (Someone will comment on ribbed texture i am sure) ::025:: you just have to take it easy on wet pavement, even on dry pavement you can get an idea on how much you can push them. They get a bit snotty on fast tight roads so one can only imagine what it would be like when wet!!

But you sure get fearless in the mountains with knobbys!! >

 

[Dirt_Dad]

Although I burned through 3 sets of K60s, I would not call myself a fan, and have stopped buying them. For me, in my environment, they offer little benefit. Honestly, I think they are a better (dry) street tire, than off road tire.

Last year I had the opportunity to take them through the twisties roads of SE Ohio following the former racer guy that scares everyone from riding with him. Sure, he's on a Goldwing now, but everyone talks about how they've never seen a GW take flight before and how they had to back off from his pace. No problem at all with my nearly worn K60s. The two of us hammered those roads...hard, and the K60s never missed a beat. Not a single moment of concern on those dry roads. I would not hesitate to take K60s into the twisties again...unless it's wet.

I never had a problem with them on wet roads, but I'm very conservative in the wet. Seen bad things, don't push my luck at all in the water. I do trust others that say they are poor in the rain. Just never been a problem with my conservative wet riding.

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that with my riding, I never need more than an 80/20 tire. The only place a 50/50 tire would benefit me is in significant mud, which I am not inclined to take my 600+lb bike into. The compromise of going to 50/50 is wasted on me 99% of the time. They definitely look cool, but not what I need.

 

[Maxified]

I never had a problem with them on wet roads, but I'm very conservative in the wet. Seen bad things, don't push my luck at all in the water. I do trust others that say they are poor in the rain. Just never been a problem with my conservative wet riding.

::026::
So what sneakers are your preferred mounts now? I'm just about due for a tire change but the K60's have hit 14K miles and still have ~2mm in the center. Bet the front would go close to 20K.

 

[yz454]

Metzler next.

 

[Dirt_Dad]

::026::
So what sneakers are your preferred mounts now? I'm just about due for a tire change but the K60's have hit 14K miles and still have ~2mm in the center. Bet the front would go close to 20K.

Don't know. I miss the old Anakee IIs. Trying Anakee III at the moment. So far so good.

 

[Chuck B]

I roadraced and offroad raced for 20yrs. Now a days I teach up coming road racers and guys who just want to learn to ride better. Each tire gives a different feel and sure a knob tire will move around far more and you certainly can't 'push' the tires like a full on street tire, however, its pretty simple to determine the tires limits. Nearly all tires give lots of feedback you as the rider just need to learn to listen lol. Folks put way too much emphasis on tires...just twist the throttle and enjoy!

 

[platty]

Great thread guys ... plenty of straight talking Very much appreciated at this end ::008::

And just for the record ... personally I'm just an ordinary STEN rider type ;D Changed the original Battle Wings to a set of K60's at around 20,000 kms (12,000 miles).

Like many others the bulk of my riding tends to be road so my next set of rubber will be more road baised ... thinking RP4's.

Thanks again

 

[Tremor38]

Re: Trying to gauge how "bad" anything other than pure road tires are on pavement

I roadraced and offroad raced for 20yrs. Now a days I teach up coming road racers and guys who just want to learn to ride better. Each tire gives a different feel and sure a knob tire will move around far more and you certainly can't 'push' the tires like a full on street tire, however, its pretty simple to determine the tires limits. Nearly all tires give lots of feedback you as the rider just need to learn to listen lol. Folks put way too much emphasis on tires...just twist the throttle and enjoy!

That sums it up for me as well.

I could easily feel the limit of the K60s on road, just as I found the limits of my Tourance Next off road. Neither is happy in mud, but the tourances are absolutely alergic!
The Tourance is naturally better on pavement, but I carved it up pretty well with a new set of K60s on dry pavement. I've never felt close to unsafe, or that any tire was 'aweful' regardless of conditions.

 

[autoteach]

Riding two up with the 2013 Pikes Peak 750 Champion on K60's, we found the limit long before hard parts were dragging. The feedback from the tire felt like it was hopping. Ideally, a better suspension setup could have utilized the tire more adequately, but he was hitting my shoulder and shouting "tires" rather soon into our sighting lap the night before the big race. This wasn't the only time I found the limits of this tire. Every time I would merge onto the highway a mile from my house, I could get the front end to push really bad. There is an expansion joint mid turn that would just upset the tire and make it push really bad, maybe about a foot or so before hooking back up. Got to be so regular that I would tense up with anxiety for it to happen, but the thrill of leaning wouldn't allow me to stop doing it day after day.

The standard "adv" tires like the tourance next, or whatever your flavor is, dont do this. The feedback is much less hair raising, they dont start sliding off expansion joints with 50% lean clearance left... but if you switch the traction control off while off road, they provide little to no traction for the torque that is available. You may find yourself swapping ends as I did on my friends dirt rendition of Barber Motorsports Park. I barely gave it any throttle at all! The k60, on the other hand, does provide adequate traction off road. I haven't tested anything else besides 3 sets Bstones, one k60, and one Next (on this bike).

 

[Rasher]

For ageing folk like me I struggle to comprehend the grip available on modern tyres.

On the S10 I run Roadsmarts and cannot get anywhere near the limits, in the dry ground clearance will be gone long before grip, and on my V-Strom commuter I have the original Tourances, the ones that do look a shade off-roady with a blocky tread pattern and not the sports tyres in disguise the EXP's are - and I cannot fault these either, the rear is scrubbed right to the edge and feels planted at all times.

I am virtually devoid of off-road opportunities where I live so run road-biased tyres as these will give me the best possible grip on the roads I spend 99% of my miles on (I will move to full road tyres when the Strom wears out the Tourances) but if I could ride a fair bit off-road I would not be too concerned about running proper dual purpose tyres, I suspect in the dry they would be pretty decent unless your really pushing it, and in the wet I would just slow a little more.

I think the days of utterly crap knobblies ended a decade or two ago, but having lobbed a DT80 down the road when a car pulled out on me in the wet I can remember when these types of tyres were properly awful - I mean this thing had a weedy disc brake that was barely any better than the brakes on a cheap Chinese pedal cycle and still locked up as soon as I grabbed a handful in the wet, yet in the dry you needed to put your feet down to stop the damn thing quickly.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Living here in CO, there are many great "off-road" routes (so I've read as I've not gone on any yet). But to get there and back you've got to get on the highway. And we get afternoon thunderstorms that just dump buckets sometimes…. So trying to figure out what to do…

I've got years of road-riding and road-racing so I probably put more trust in my tires than I should… I tend to ride my bikes pretty hard through the corners. As an example, when I got my ST and took it on its first ride through the mountains, there were no more "chicken strips" or the molding nubs on the edges of the tire after only a couple hours. I don't try, but leaning a bike way over into a corner is very comfortable to me.. on the dry or on dedicated rain tires….

I don't think that anybody is going to argue with the statement that there is no perfect tire. Plus, what works best for us on the East coast isn't necessarily the same for you in Colorado with your big sweepers and less muddy off road conditions. Scott123007 did a nice summary of different applications.


One comparison that I'll add is that if you can ride to the sides of the stock Battlewings as easily you wrote, then you will not be happy with the cornering limits of the Anakee 3. Sitting upright, yes they can get to the pegs. Barely. But the A3 has less shoulder and with almost any amount of hanging off the bike I lose traction and the rear starts sliding out to light the TC light before the pegs or anything else are near the ground. The A3 also makes a howling sound at some speeds which I find annoying. Otherwise they are very good in the rain and a pretty good 90-10 tire.


Not sure what I'm trying next.

 

[Bushyar15]

Thanks for all the response! They've given me an idea of what to expect from the various tires and what type of feedback they provide.

Next year when I do COBDR from 4 corners to Wyoming (or the other direction), I'll put on a set of tires that will provide more off-road capability. After the ride, i know I won't be doing as much off-road, so I'll be switching probably to a 80-20 type tire…

Thanks Everyone for you invaluable input!

 

[scott123007]

Riding two up with the 2013 Pikes Peak 750 Champion on K60's, we found the limit long before hard parts were dragging. The feedback from the tire felt like it was hopping. Ideally, a better suspension setup could have utilized the tire more adequately, but he was hitting my shoulder and shouting "tires" rather soon into our siting lap the night before the big race. This wasn't the only time I found the limits of this tire. Every time I would merge onto the highway a mile from my house, I could get the front end to push really bad. There is an expansion joint mid turn that would just upset the tire and make it push really bad, maybe about a foot or so before hooking back up. Got to be so regular that I would tense up with anxiety for it to happen, but the thrill of leaning wouldn't allow me to stop doing it day after day.

The standard "adv" tires like the tourance next, or whatever your flavor is, dont do this. The feedback is much less hair raising, they dont start sliding off expansion joints with 50% lean clearance left... but if you switch the traction control off while off road, they provide little to no traction for the torque that is available. You may find yourself swapping ends as I did on my friends dirt rendition of Barber Motorsports Park. I barely gave it any throttle at all! The k60, on the other hand, does provide adequate traction off road. I haven't tested anything else besides 3 sets Bstones, one k60, and one Next (on this bike).

What's that old saying about glass houses, Auto

 

[eemsreno]

I have never been a road racer but I have raced motocross for 40 years. When I got this bike with the stock Bridgestones it was flat out scary to be off road. My bike will never have a set of street tires on it again. I have about 68,000 on K60s and they are so superior to street tires off road, but nothing has given me the confidence of the Big Blocks if you want to get serious off road. I now have a set of Mitas tires on and first impressions are very good. I'll report back in a month after putting 5,000-10,000 miles on them.
Steve