Today's lesson- why you should only use OEM brake pads

[bloodline]

and why the rear brake pads wear more on some bikes than others...

First of all, the ABS/UBS system has friction coefficients in the software for OEM pads and there is no way to change that.

i'll do my best to explain this.

When you apply the brakes, hydraulic pressure sensors feed the pressure to the ABS computer. If the bike is not slowing down at the appropriate rate for the amount of braking that is being applied, ie. your bike is heavy, the UBS system increases the rear brake pressure all the way to the point that it matches the front brake pressure.

So, if you run different brake pads, the pressure vs. rate of deceleration is all screwed up and you are compromising the wonderful system they have designed. Seems to me that mixing them, like OEM up front and aftermarket out back, would be the worst scenario. You could be roasting your rear rotor or wearing out your new pads at a high rate, depending on your choice of aftermarket pads.

Those of you that are seeing increased wear of the rear brake pads versus the front, well, you are either fat, 2 up, heavily loaded or all of those.

This is why some people that rarely use the rear brake still see a lot of wear.

 

[Koinz]

Those of you that are seeing increased wear of the rear brake pads versus the front, well, you are either fat, 2 up, heavily loaded or all of those.

This is why some people that rarely use the rear brake still see a lot of wear.

Thanks for the highly technical conclusion. I'm never two up, I could be a little fat and I'm always heavily loaded. ::003:: ;D
I'm guessing if there were two rotors on the back, the pads wouldn't wear as fast either.

 

[bloodline]

::003::

 

[Duconce]

So what you are really saying is the ABS isn't designed for fat people....

 

[mcbrien]

It's a tough crowd ain't it

 

[avc8130]

That all sounds good in theory. I'll let you know how it goes in practice.

At 18k I swapped my OEM pads for EBC HH up front and organics out back. My OEM pads had pretty much destroyed my rear rotor already. Grooves, ridges, halfway through its wear tolerance.

ac

 

[Ron_Luning]

I ride solo, not much extra weight installed beyond stock, and rarely use the rear brake. Also since most of my miles are commuting, the stopping is not very aggressive usually.

I had to replace the rear pads at something like 12k miles. I have never had to do that so early on any other bike. Also, my rear rotor is pretty much screwed. It is grooved to hell and has discernible thick/thin points.

I think your theory about needing to use the OEM pads is wrong for a variety of reasons.

 

[Koinz]

I ride solo, not much extra weight installed beyond stock, and rarely use the rear brake. Also since most of my miles are commuting, the stopping is not very aggressive usually.

I had to replace the rear pads at something like 12k miles. I have never had to do that so early on any other bike. Also, my rear rotor is pretty much screwed. It is grooved to hell and has discernible thick/thin points.

I think your theory about needing to use the OEM pads is wrong for a variety of reasons.

There you go bloodline, Your Theory went to hell. So the moral is: Get fat and heavily loaded all the time. Makes no difference and you'll be much happier.

 

[bloodline]

ha! Well, it's not my theory, just my explanation. It's straight out of the tech guide from yamaha.

 

[Koinz]

Ya, My rears wore out at around 12K as well, seeing as the bike has UBS, I rarely use my rear brake, but it's always being used. I don't know what the right answer is so I replaced mine with oem pads. My fronts have a ton of pad left at 22K. When I replaced my rear I thought I would be replacing the front shortly after that. I keep checking them, but lots of life left. I have new ones in my pannier whenever they wear out. ???

Oh.... and in case you ask, yes I have bled the brakes a couple of times now.

 

[Ron_Luning]

I'd love to know Yamaha's explanation of how they magically calculate the coefficient of friction for their brake pads and somehow program all of that data into the ECU when it is raining, when their warm, when their cold, when they have mud on them, when there is sand/silt on them, when the rotors are grooved, when the pads are 8 years old, etc.

Total bullshit.

 

[scott123007]

I'd love to know Yamaha's explanation of how they magically calculate the coefficient of friction for their brake pads and somehow program all of that data into the ECU when it is raining, when their warm, when their cold, when they have mud on them, when there is sand/silt on them, when the rotors are grooved, when the pads are 8 years old, etc.

Total bullshit.

Well, before you go all Postal on Yamaha, think about all it is doing. Before Bloodline started interjecting "his" interpretation of what is going on and recommended only OEM brakes, it made perfect sense to me.

As I understand it,you apply the front brakes with a certain amount of force on the lever and the ECU calculates and delegates a percentage (20) of that fluid pressure to the rear caliper. If the de-acceleration rate is not what has been programed into whatever sensor is measuring it, the ECU allows a higher percentage of pressure to go to the rear caliper. I don't think the ECU gives a rats ass what is causing the bike to slow slower than it thinks it should, only that it is.

My thoughts would be that if you put a set of EBC HH pads up front,(because they are hands down a better pad) the slow rate would be greater when the same amount of pressure is applied as with OEM, and not as much pressure would need to be delegated to the rear.

If you left the OEM up front and changed the rear, the bike would still slow a little better because of the better pad on the rear being told to clamp a little harder.

OR, you could do as I did, and just change them ALL and have better braking all around. Will they possibly wear out my rear disk a little sooner? Maybe. Do I even care one iota that a $100 rear disk might be spent in 75,000 miles? Not in the least.

 

[bloodline]

I'd love to know Yamaha's explanation of how they magically calculate the coefficient of friction for their brake pads and somehow program all of that data into the ECU when it is raining, when their warm, when their cold, when they have mud on them, when there is sand/silt on them, when the rotors are grooved, when the pads are 8 years old, etc.

Total bullshit.

You are missing the point. They had to start somewhere. When you apply front brake, the UBS applies rear brake. How much rear brake it applies is based on the hydraulic pressure you are applying to the brake lines and the wheel speed sensors. If you are applying an amount of force that should be stopping the bike at a certain rate, based on the program, and it's not stopping, the UBS applies more rear brake.

That rate that is used to determine the amount of rear brake that gets applied by the UBS is based on OEM brake pads.

 

[HoebSTer]

This is interesting. It almost seems reverse of traditonal braking. Front end dives, rear end gets light, therefore less pressure needed to lock the rear wheel. If the same pressure was applied when weight shifts forward, it would lock all of the time on rear. Now on this system it is really opposite, as if it doesn't want the bike to shift forward allowing the max force end of braking to take place which is the front.
I have thought if I was to come into any given braking situation faster and then apply way much more braking lever force, that some of the front would compress taking some of the load off the rear. I would think it would only still apply 30% max rear brake force since 70% can be handled by the front due to traction allowed, as well as brake rotor and surface contact area of pads up front.
So does all this lead us to believe that we are supposed to apply good force on the rear pedal to equalize this whole electronical process? I want more rear pedal feel. I rarely can even tell if I am pressing on it and have to look down to do so. No, i didn't start riding yesterday!!!
Maybe my system needs bled. Probably!!
????????? :question: :question: :question:

 

[NoMorBills]

Internet engineers you are way over thinking this,, as usual!

 

[Ron_Luning]

In that case, I'm missing your point in the basis for the title of this thread. In it, you're suggesting that it is imperative to use OEM brake pads because that is the basis for the system calibration. Plenty of people have used the OEM brakes and had a less than optimal experience with rear brake wear without the use cases (heavy/two riders/etc.) that you have highlighted. That is with the OEM pads...so in compliance with what you've stated is the optimal setup.

OEM brake pads were used to calibrate the initial system is what you're saying, right? I believe that, because there would be no reason to do otherwise. The idea that the owner should only use OEM brake pads to maintain a functional (or at least ideally functional) braking system is just like the suggestion in the owner's manual that I use Yamalube motor oil. Total bullshit meant to scare people into buying consumables from the manufacturer.

"Those of you that are seeing increased wear of the rear brake pads versus the front, well, you are either fat, 2 up, heavily loaded or all of those.
This is why some people that rarely use the rear brake still see a lot of wear" I've had ridiculous rear wear with all OEM pads and I don't meet the criteria you've list here. So what are you saying in this thread in terms of the big picture? The title says if you don't use OEM pads you're wrong. The body says that OEM pads are the only way to go because of special specifications.

I am missing the point. What is it?

 

[GrahamD]

I think he means that the system ...

Never mind just tap the rear brake first. Then it's all unlinked. Use rare mahogany blessed by Monks or cast Iron pads it won't matter.

YAMAHA Gives a pretty detailed description about what going on.

 

[scott123007]

I'm only now beginning to realize why it is so hard for me to teach people how to go FAST on a motorcycle.

 

[GrahamD]

I'm only now beginning to realize why it is so hard for me to teach people how to go FAST on a motorcycle.

Try slow races for a while. ;D

 

[Firefight911]

Man, there is a lot of bad weather going around and keeping people from riding.

Careful, you might start to sound like some BMW riders I know.

26,000 miles on OEM pads and I changed them. HH EBC fronts and organic EBC rears for the replacement. More initial bit, yes. Longevity? We shall see. Do I care if I have to replace a rotor after the next set of pads? Nope, money well spent and it will never exceed the happy quotient. Not even close.

Yes, there's an algorhythm that goes in to determine bias, etc. You aren't that smart, so quit trying to internet engineer it, ride it, enjoy it, and continue on.