squarebore
Well-Known Member
Funny thing is, I don't think the person I am referring to knows we are referring to him. The line between helpful colleague and obnoxious know-it-all is quite thin.
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**Tire Debate** Mileage vs Safety. Hard Compound vs Soft Compound
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ballisticexchris
Guest
So my take on the tire debate is we all have opinions some good and some bad. What’s strange are some of the opinions of being able to ride a subpar ill handling (hard compound) tire simply by adjusting the way you ride. I will never agree to that thought process. Especially in the off road world where changes in the terrain are far more dramatic and quicker changing than on pavement.
Another strange thing I’ve noticed on riding forums is there is not much description of what a tire does in different conditions. A few posts here gave good info. Thank you for that! You have to really search hard to find anyone give a detailed description of tire characteristics. It’s almost always about”how many miles do they last”.
I can see I’m odd man out. I change my own tires. And even if I’m peeling off thousands of miles on a tour I would never consider using a crappy tire based on getting good miles out of it.
Another strange thing I’ve noticed on riding forums is there is not much description of what a tire does in different conditions. A few posts here gave good info. Thank you for that! You have to really search hard to find anyone give a detailed description of tire characteristics. It’s almost always about”how many miles do they last”.
I can see I’m odd man out. I change my own tires. And even if I’m peeling off thousands of miles on a tour I would never consider using a crappy tire based on getting good miles out of it.
I don't think you're the odd man out. A lot of people just get turned off of the internet drama an know-it-alls and just get on with riding
If it seems strange to you, and you have not found information, propose it. It is a good topic, not to discuss, but to learn. I already tried to propose it before, but they answered me in the forum, “when you change the type of tires it is because you know what you are doing” ... and it is true, for expert pilots. but there are inexperienced drivers who receive recommendations from an expert, but do not give them warnings. I can cite the case of the KTM "R", which come from factories with big blocks and a tracing in the tank that says "maximum speed 160km / h" .... but not say "be careful in asphalt curves with this tires”.. . I have a friend who bought one, the first thing I said after congratulating him on the purchase was “be careful with that tires in curves of asphalt, and if it is wet, take care more. I’m not expert rider, but I already have two known dead, two KTM 1190, both in curves of asphalt, both with big blocks, one against a column, another against a truck in front. They were good drivers, but the 140hp endorphins probably led them to make a mistake
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ballisticexchris
Guest
Boy that sure is a sobering reminder!! I'm not an expert either but I sure know what tires are safe for the riding I do. Those high HP "super bikes" are a real handful in the wrong hands. I test road a few of them and just too much power for my skill level. This Super Tenere has more than enough HP and I can see where even it can get away from you. IMO proper tire choice is a big factor to make it safer for the riding I do. What sucks is experimenting with different treads to get what's right. I choose soft compounds because it's what I know works.
EricV
Riding, farkling, riding...
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I don't think a discussion was really what was being looked for here. You came in with a predisposed opinion and you were looking for support for that. You seem to believe that because you understand what knobbies do for you, under your riding conditions and style, that they are 'safer' for you. You automatically equate harder compound tires to 'ill handling' w/o any apparent experience with tires that last longer than a few thousand miles.
You all must be right and I must be wrong. Despite the minor detail that I likely have more miles on gravel with street tires than Jekyll has on track days. I've never said your choice is wrong. Or not to buy and use the tires you feel work best for your needs. I have simply tried to explain that there isn't as much difference between what you consider soft compound and what you consider hard compound. Because you are not seeing the kind of mileage I look for, ever, in your tire use, has as much to do with riding style as tire choice. You likely would not get the same mileage from the same set of tires as I would. And that's fine. But because of that, you can't understand my point of view either. I'm not riding slower than you are. I'm just using a street oriented riding style, not a track oriented riding style.
The deaths Jiq is talking about is part of what I've been saying all along. Those riders over rode the envelope they had. Chris likes knobbies on the street because he knows where the limits are and apparently feels those limits are being communicated to him as he approaches them. Most tires do that, the subtle cues are simply different. My point has been that most tires have higher limits than we should be exploring on the street, regardless of compound. Limits well over the speed limits in any state.
Have fun riding however you wish to ride. I'll try not to bite at the bait in the future and leave you to pat each other on the back.
You all must be right and I must be wrong. Despite the minor detail that I likely have more miles on gravel with street tires than Jekyll has on track days. I've never said your choice is wrong. Or not to buy and use the tires you feel work best for your needs. I have simply tried to explain that there isn't as much difference between what you consider soft compound and what you consider hard compound. Because you are not seeing the kind of mileage I look for, ever, in your tire use, has as much to do with riding style as tire choice. You likely would not get the same mileage from the same set of tires as I would. And that's fine. But because of that, you can't understand my point of view either. I'm not riding slower than you are. I'm just using a street oriented riding style, not a track oriented riding style.
The deaths Jiq is talking about is part of what I've been saying all along. Those riders over rode the envelope they had. Chris likes knobbies on the street because he knows where the limits are and apparently feels those limits are being communicated to him as he approaches them. Most tires do that, the subtle cues are simply different. My point has been that most tires have higher limits than we should be exploring on the street, regardless of compound. Limits well over the speed limits in any state.
Have fun riding however you wish to ride. I'll try not to bite at the bait in the future and leave you to pat each other on the back.
Cycledude
Well-Known Member
It’s kinda sad that Eric doesn’t get a thrill from riding on the street . I get thrilled pretty much anywhere I ride.
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ballisticexchris
Guest
Easy there Eric, a discussion is what I was looking for when I started this thread. We all have opinions. Hell, I'm not looking for support. I welcome all opinions and feedback on the topic. And I'm just a mellow street/off road rider as well. You even admit you are a mile cruncher. I might do the same as you and get the longest lasting tire I could for those type of competitions. I realized that kind of riding is not my cup of tea.
A lot of times there is a certain type or brand of tire that gets a lot of attraction and becomes a "fad". Trials tires comes to mind. Anyone and everyone was using these off road 10 years ago. I even got caught up in the frenzy. Mitas E07 is another one. In a few years it will be something else.
Back in the early 80's the Dunlop 391 was the hot ticket. Soft compound was just starting to make it to the street market back then. I personally like a soft compound tire on street and dirt. The reality is they just don't last as long. I'm cool with it. Just as some guys are willing to give up traction and performance for a long lasting hard compound tire.
This is a good discussion. I hope some more guys will chime in and give opinions and "debate" their choice of rubber and why.
And it may not seem like it but I value your opinion Eric, as well as all the other members here. Thanks guys!!
I guess I didn't articulate that correctly. My riding thrill doesn't have to include speed; now, don't get me wrong, speed CAN be quite the thrill. On a bike though, you don't have to go fast to feel fast. Sometimes, on super tight roads, the speed limit is sometimes all that you can do. But, when grandma signals a right turn....but actually turns left in front of you....that is an adrenaline dump....and not a good one.
Aren't we all saying the same thing, more or less? To me, it's no secret that "soft" compounds grip better than "hard" compounds. And those "hard(er)" compounds allow you to go more miles before the tread is gone, requiring replacement. Metzler Marathon claims "ultra-mileage"....designed for cruisers and tourers. Probably not a tire you want at the track. But, conversely, you probably don't want to use a Dunlop Sportmax Q4 for a cross country trip. And, if you ride on pavement 90% of the time, knobbies are probably not the BEST tire choice; regardless of how cool they make the bike look. Decide, and be honest with yourself, HOW you are going to ride....and WHERE you are going to ride....and how often you want to buy new tires. Picking tires isn't any different than using a tool....pick the right one for the job. Just sayin'.
Spot on.
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ballisticexchris
Guest
I ride pavement on the Super Tenere more than 90% of the time and the knobby tires are perfect for me. It’s that very small bit off off road that I want to feel safe as possible on. I’m not much into the look. At some point I might change my opinion. For now 600+ lb bike + slippery dirt equals a disastrous outcome on anything less. It’s a bummer for the noise and wear. It’s the price I have to pay for taking this beast off the pavement. Thankfully the Anakee Wilds are as good on the highway as they are off. Very predictable and safe. Michelin got it right with these. I highly recommend them!
Longdog Cymru
Well-Known Member
Yes, you’ll find one everywhere!
By the way, I stay in hotels when I am on tour, a comfortable bed, a hot shower and a cold beer are my rewards after a long day in the saddle.
Tyres? Horses for courses. If you ride on the dirt, then fit appropriate tyres, if you ride on the road, fit road or road biased tyres. Which ever is your poison, then give me grip every time and a tyre that does it wet or dry, hot or cold.
eterna1_drag0n
New Member
While I totally agree that the type of tire -to- the type of conditions is very important; what is more important is that a tire choice should not give you a FALSE sense of security. Brand XXX Super Tire of Super Grip is not going to save you from XXX unforeseen road/trail hazard. If buying a specific tire is giving someone a sense that they "can do it all" that may sound good, but too much "can do it all" attitude will show you "it all" includes things you didn't intend too. “Can do” is not the same as “should do.”
If you have knobbies so you can ride trails great, but tires are only one part of the equation; familiarity of the trail, appropriate speed, skill, weather, and proper protective gear are just as, if not more important than the tires. Do not give tires more value then they deserve! Yes, some have better grip, others last longer, or are better for specific conditions; (Battlewings cannot do mud! They are great for gravel) None of them can prevent the unforeseen, or just as importantly prevent you from doing something you shouldn't. Hell, sometimes the “bad tire” is safer than those Super Tires of Super Grip because they will hopefully limit what you think you can do with them.
Personally, I do mostly road with some dirt/fire roads and I’d rather get more, many more, miles on the road than a few more MPH on the trail. That said, I have taken the S10 to get baptized in sand and mud shortly after getting it and had the wrong tires, Battlewings, for the conditions, both deep and slick mud. I learned quickly that the limitations were not just the tires on the bike, but also its’ and my weight; 650 bike + a 250 rider. If I had had knobbies on, I think I would have just ended up getting stuck in a place I wouldn’t have been able to get the bike out of myself. As it was, I put it down & pick it back up by myself more than a dozen times on that adventure, all from a stopped/stuck placement just to put sticks under the tires (old jeeper trick) or lever it around a rock/tree stump that it got hung up on. Someday, maybe I’ll put a vid or 2 of it on you-tube.
The tires I choose…
On my bike I switched to Michelin Anakee 3s because they have a good combination of features (for mainly street riders) and I trust the brand to not have many flaws in construction, easier to balance that way too. They also remind me not to go to close to mud.
On my Jeep I use Pro Comp Mud Terrains, hard knobby like tires, because hard = less punctures, the fact that they last forever on the road is just a bonus. I’ve found punctures (both on treads and sidewalls) to be more of a threat then reduced grip on off road tires. Also tires can be aired down to add more grip.
I’ll follow the jeep’s guide on the bike when/if I get knobbies and just ride conservatively on the road with them.
If you have knobbies so you can ride trails great, but tires are only one part of the equation; familiarity of the trail, appropriate speed, skill, weather, and proper protective gear are just as, if not more important than the tires. Do not give tires more value then they deserve! Yes, some have better grip, others last longer, or are better for specific conditions; (Battlewings cannot do mud! They are great for gravel) None of them can prevent the unforeseen, or just as importantly prevent you from doing something you shouldn't. Hell, sometimes the “bad tire” is safer than those Super Tires of Super Grip because they will hopefully limit what you think you can do with them.
Personally, I do mostly road with some dirt/fire roads and I’d rather get more, many more, miles on the road than a few more MPH on the trail. That said, I have taken the S10 to get baptized in sand and mud shortly after getting it and had the wrong tires, Battlewings, for the conditions, both deep and slick mud. I learned quickly that the limitations were not just the tires on the bike, but also its’ and my weight; 650 bike + a 250 rider. If I had had knobbies on, I think I would have just ended up getting stuck in a place I wouldn’t have been able to get the bike out of myself. As it was, I put it down & pick it back up by myself more than a dozen times on that adventure, all from a stopped/stuck placement just to put sticks under the tires (old jeeper trick) or lever it around a rock/tree stump that it got hung up on. Someday, maybe I’ll put a vid or 2 of it on you-tube.
The tires I choose…
On my bike I switched to Michelin Anakee 3s because they have a good combination of features (for mainly street riders) and I trust the brand to not have many flaws in construction, easier to balance that way too. They also remind me not to go to close to mud.
On my Jeep I use Pro Comp Mud Terrains, hard knobby like tires, because hard = less punctures, the fact that they last forever on the road is just a bonus. I’ve found punctures (both on treads and sidewalls) to be more of a threat then reduced grip on off road tires. Also tires can be aired down to add more grip.
I’ll follow the jeep’s guide on the bike when/if I get knobbies and just ride conservatively on the road with them.
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Longdog Cymru
Well-Known Member
eterna1_drag0n,
I agree with you and that’s the point I was making, albeit in a far less specific manner than you. You use Michelin Anakee 3s, a premium brand tyre with good wet and dry road performance and I fully endorse your choice as I have used them myself. I have been pleasantly surprised by the stock Bridgestone that my S10 came with and I would be happy to use them again as a road tyre whose appearance suits the adventure bike style. Tomorrow, I am getting a pair of Michelin Pilot Trail 5s fitted, an evolution I guess of the Anakee 3s so I am expecting them to live up to Michelin’s reputation. I have been a huge fan of Michelin for over 10 years and they suit me and my bikes and the fact that I am no longer a dirt rider.
I agree with you and that’s the point I was making, albeit in a far less specific manner than you. You use Michelin Anakee 3s, a premium brand tyre with good wet and dry road performance and I fully endorse your choice as I have used them myself. I have been pleasantly surprised by the stock Bridgestone that my S10 came with and I would be happy to use them again as a road tyre whose appearance suits the adventure bike style. Tomorrow, I am getting a pair of Michelin Pilot Trail 5s fitted, an evolution I guess of the Anakee 3s so I am expecting them to live up to Michelin’s reputation. I have been a huge fan of Michelin for over 10 years and they suit me and my bikes and the fact that I am no longer a dirt rider.