The cam chain tensioner *IS* a maintenance item

[dcstrom]

At least on the pre-'14 models.

There's 3 instances of failures that I know about - one at 54,000 miles, one at 80,000 and now mine at 76,000.

In my case, I am very lucky, and very unlucky at the same time. I didn't read about this problem until just AFTER I had a valve check in the UK. Too bad, I would have had the '14 tensioner installed then. I was invited to visit Yamaha UK, and they gave me a new tensioner, and if I was willing to wait 4 days they would have installed it too (there was a long weekend coming up). But I needed to get to Paris so they arranged for Yamaha France to do the installation. Great!

2 days before, and about 30 miles before my appointment at Yam France, I started the bike and the chain clatter was much louder than normal, then the bike wouldn't start. Then engine turned over, but really slowly? The bike had been sitting for 2 days too, so that would have meant most of the oil had drained out of the tensioner.

I suspected the chain had jumped the sprockets so didn't continue trying to start. Maybe this is what saved me (airheadpilot and EricV both made more attempts at starting I believe). End result, chain had jumped 4 teeth, but no valve bent. Both the other cases had bent valves.

I was crapping myself for a while - bent valves in Paris? How much is that going to cost? Three thousand euros? And how unlucky was that, 30 miles before the new tensioner was going in? Yamaha France though were fantastic though, they picked up the bike and within a day had it running again. Can't thank those guys enough.

Now it's amazing how quiet startups are compared to before - we all know that horrible clatter that went on for 1 to 5 seconds, and it was "normal". Now it's gone for good I hope.

I think Yamaha will probably make this recommendation at some point, but let me get in first! Seems like anything over 50,000 miles could be a problem for the tensioner, so I would say get it replaced by the second valve check - 48,000 miles. Knowing what I know now, I would do it at the first valve check, 24,000, if only to get rid of the clatter of the earlier version.

Airheadpilot, not sure if you a still having problems getting warranty coverage, but if you are it might help to mention that there are other examples of the same problem, indicating that the design of the part is faulty, or at the very least, Yamaha are at fault for not listing the tensioner as a maintenance item.

 

[longride]

NEWS FLASH! Of course it is a maintenance item! And it is on every single motorcycle ever made with one INCLUDING a 2014! Of course there is no 'scheduled maintenance' on a cam chain tensioner, but anyone that is listening to cam chain clatter at startup or any other time and isn't worried should have their head examined. Does anyone know how long a cam chain tensioner will last on any bike? I do! Until it isn't working properly or breaks! There is your answer. What mileage that is depends on the tensioner, oil, rider, and about 10 other variables. When my cam chain starts making noise, I will change the tensioner. If an updated one makes sense, then I will use that. This isn't rocket science.

 

[Z06]

Glad you got it taken care of. I am getting nervous hearing these reports. I am on the road until Oct and my clatter has been getting worse and longer. Even does it after sitting a few minutes when hot.
From what I M reading the CCT"s are back ordered in US. So I can't replace right now anyway.
Bike has 63000 miles on it now. Keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[dcstrom]

Longride - in that case I should have had it replaced on DAY ONE - because it's always been noisy at startup. Granted it's gotten worse with more miles, but how much noise is too much? As EricV said, there is no description in the manual or anywhere else that he could find to help determine the amount of wear in the tensioner.

NEWS FLASH! Of course it is a maintenance item! And it is on every single motorcycle ever made with one INCLUDING a 2014! Of course there is no 'scheduled maintenance' on a cam chain tensioner, but anyone that is listening to cam chain clatter at startup or any other time and isn't worried should have their head examined. Does anyone know how long a cam chain tensioner will last on any bike? I do! Until it isn't working properly or breaks! There is your answer. What mileage that is depends on the tensioner, oil, rider, and about 10 other variables. When my cam chain starts making noise, I will change the tensioner. If an updated one makes sense, then I will use that. This isn't rocket science.

 

[OldRider]

CCT's don't really go out very often. Most motorcycle engines die in the junk yard with the cct they were born with. The cct on the S10 is flawed or there wouldn't be a noise on start up. Kawasaki went through the same thing on a lot of early 80's fours. The replacement tensioner was made totally different than the one they came out of the factory with and lasted for the rest of the engines life. Back in the 60's & 70's all cam chain tensioner had to be adjusted manually. When the chain started to rattle, you put the slack in the chain on the tensioner side and loosened the lock nut, backed the bolt out and the spring pushed the plunger forward and you were go to go for a while.

 

[88millimeter]

Maybe I'm just arguing semantics but to me a maintenance item is something you replace before it becomes a problem or to prevent a problem. Replacing a cct when the chain gets loose and noisy is service (not maintenance ) to the bike because the part has already failed.

 

[dcstrom]

I agree - but since this part is noisy from the start, I would like to see some direction from Yamaha as to WHEN it should be regarded as unservicable. If that's not possible, then just put on on the maintenance schedule like any number of other items.

Maybe I'm just arguing semantics but to me a maintenance item is something you replace before it becomes a problem or to prevent a problem. Replacing a cct when the chain gets loose and noisy is service (not maintenance ) to the bike because the part has already failed.

 

[OldRider]

90+% of the time when you hear a timing chain making noise it's because the chain is wore out. Most tensions are going to outlast the motorcycle. The S10 cct is a faulty part, that's the reason the 14 has a different design. They didn't change it because they were bored. It's not wore out early, it's slipping and not holding pressure against the chain guide. These things are made to go out and not come back in. Some use a wedges that can only slide in one direction, some use something on the order of a one way bearing. The plunger is under spring pressure and the bearing let's it go out, but wedges against it so it can't come back in.


I've ordered the 14 cct to put in my 13 because if it slips one time, it can slip anytime and I don't want to take that chance.

Here's a picture of a Kawasaki cct that has teeth that ratchet out, but can't come back.

The second pic is a Kawasaki design with a one way bearing holding the plunger out.

 

[OldRider]

Yamaha made installing the cct on the S10 more difficult than necessary.

On the ratchet type Kaw cct, all you did was take the bolt out of the end which would take pressure off the spring, install the cct and put the bolt and spring back in.

On the second Kaw cct, you took the bolt out of the side, pushed the plunger back in and put in a longer bolt to hold it in place. After it was installed on the block, take out the long bolt, the cct releases and put the short bolt back in to seal the hole. This cct was know to fail and was replaced with a wedge type cct.

Yamaha has very good simple cct's on other bikes. I don't know why they made the S10 one the way they did.

 

[EricV]

@dcstrom - Glad to hear that you got sorted and there was no damage. I hope your RTW trip continues w/o drama. Please keep sharing stories from your travels. ::008::

@Longride - How many modern Yamaha motorcycles have you owned? There is no need to spread such BS on the forum, someone might actually think you know what you're talking about. There is no service interval for the CCT. There are zero specs for the cam chain itself. It's not like the owner's manual or even the FSM has an interval listed for the CCT to check/inspect or replace. This isn't the timing belt on an automotive engine where it's spec'd to replace every 60k and people are ignoring that. There is no actual number of miles listed for a recommended CCT change, nor is it, or has it ever, been recommended to change out the CCT at a particular interval. (though I would agree at this point that perhaps there should be one at 52k.) On other bikes you get enough warning that it's going bad to replace it when it goes bad, but easily before it gets catastrophic.

The problem with the CCT on the Super Ten is that you only hear extra slop on start up, not while the engine is running at idle any other time. So you don't get the large amount of pre-failure warning that is more typical, where every time the bike comes to idle the cam chain noise is evident. And many of the Super Tenere bikes are noisy on start up from new, making it a subtle change when the CCT is going, or has gone bad. Add to that, the Super Ten has a very long cam chain too. That makes the slop issue even worse, being more likely to slip than on an inline 4 motor, (imho).

Do cam chains wear? Sure, everything wears. I'll give you $20 if you can get Yamaha to tell you how to check the cam chain for wear, (with a measurement spec). And I'll give you $100 if you can ever get any dealer to warranty a worn part. Wear is not covered under warranty.

Latest word I got on my warranty claim, now moving into week 9 with the bike in the shop, is that they probably will only cover replacement of one piston, 2 sets of rings, 2 valves and 2 guides. I may actually have to have them put the motor together and fire it up to prove that the CCT is bad unless the regional rep makes the judgement call to replace it first. The Warranty guy in Michigan will only replace parts with physical damage, and can't provide any method by which to check the cam chain. I'll probably pay for a second piston and a cam chain since it doesn't make sense to me to put the 82k parts back in. I haven't seen the 'good' piston myself so can't check for ring gap wear. I may or may not get that opportunity. And I still have an unknown valve issue to deal with, since one valve was not fully closing, causing a lean condition on half of the piston. Not sure if that was one of the bent valves or not.

 

[Paul466]

Im not sure weather its my ear or not but when starting the bike using side stand vs.center stand(bike level vs. angled) seems like the chain is making less noise before oil pressure pushes the plunger tight in vertical position than leaned on the side stand. can the chain slop being at an angle make contact with the case causing it to rub before gets tight?

 

[Chickengrease]

What are pros and cons of manual adjuster?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-12-13-YAMAHA-SUPER-TENERE-XTZ12-MANUAL-CAM-CHAIN-TENSIONER-BLACK-YTR1-09-/380702163492?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58a39e0224&vxp=mtr

 

[eemsreno]

What are pros and cons of manual adjuster?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-12-13-YAMAHA-SUPER-TENERE-XTZ12-MANUAL-CAM-CHAIN-TENSIONER-BLACK-YTR1-09-/380702163492?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58a39e0224&vxp=mtr

I think the problem with this kind of CCt is that you can't tell how much pressure your putting on the chain.
The manual adjusting tensioner on my XS1100 has a mark on the crank to line up then release a lock nut and back up the pinch bolt and the plunger is spring loaded to the right pressure.

 

[OldRider]

In the case of Kawasaki back in the 70s, the new version was not necessarily better than the old. Up til 1979 they use the manual tensioner that would last the life of the motorcycle, then in 1979 they went to the automatic version that caused lots of problems for many years thereafter. You could purchase the old tensioner if you wanted to to "upgrade".

There were at least a half of dozen different cct's and if my memory serves me right, this double wedge type tensioner was the one that caused all the trouble.

 

[Mzee]

If the CCT is worn out or problematic as in the S10, does one have to replace all the items involved: chain, cct, dampers, etc or just the CCT?

 

[EricV]

If the CCT is worn out or problematic as in the S10, does one have to replace all the items involved: chain, cct, dampers, etc or just the CCT?

Just the CCT. Unless things have failed catastrophically, in which case a tear down is usually in order. If it's just getting noisier, it's a simple replacement of the CCT w/o any tear down. timing chains wear, but Yamaha ones rarely break and the cam gears also don't generally need replacement. I've seen my FJR's cam chain and gears up close and personal at 100k miles and they were fine. That bike had been thru 3 CCTs at that point, but finally got one of the new design ones and never needed another one, at least in the next 62k miles I had it.

 

[stevepsd]

Who here has installed the manual CCT?

All of my older bikes were manual (typically spring loaded plunger with a lock nut/bolt) and never had any issues.

I just replaced the hydraulic CCT on my KTM 530 with a completely manual one (not spring loaded) and I could not believe the difference in engine noise. What I had attributed to 'normal' noise went completely away by changing to a completely manual CCT.

On my KTM checking for proper chain tension is pretty simple when you remove the valve cover as you can see the entire CCT plunger/chain guide/chain to determine the correct tension. Not sure how possible this is on the ST as I have not taken a real close look.

-steve