Super Ténéré 2017 & Beyond...

[hoak]

Last fall I posted this post to the ADV Rider forums; the idea was just to see what other Super Ténéré owners thought and/or came up with. I'm generally very satisfied with my non ES XTZ, but as I stated in the ADV Rider thread; after riding a Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX I realized I could be a lot more satisfied, and after seeing how nicely that bike comes apart for user maintenance -- even more so.

Every motorcycle has to make design compromises and concessions for cost, mass production, and appealing to the broadest possible target audience; but some of the compromises Yamaha has chosen do sort of grate on me; I'm talking about things that would be low or no cost evolutionary improvements, not substantial redesign of the bike.

The thing that bothers me the most is the ridiculous amount of disassembly required just to do essential maintenance like changing an air filter, spark plugs, fork oil, and worst of all a valve adjustment.

These are probably not issues easily rectified, though you'd think a bike with 'RTW' design intention would have this as part of the design plan, and that not only doesn't seem to be the case, it seems to have been ignored entirely. Obviously gear driven self-adjusting hydraulic valves would have been nice, but direct cam impingement shim buckets seems like the worst choice of all -- the XTZ is not after all intended to be a crotch rocket.

That out of the way some relatively low cost things I think Yamaha could do to raise the bar would include:

Proper Labyrinth Seals Around The Plug Cap/Coils

The spark plug wells have no drains, this is really an outright design gaff imho, that seriously needs to be addressed; dirt, corrosion, and water that has no proper exit in the plug wells and get into the coils is just not good and not necessary, seal the damn things properly if you're going to do it his way!

Brakes & Cross Over Brake Line

It's disappointing to own a heavy ADV bike with the worst stopping distance in its class, with no easy means to disable the intervention or front/rear integration. Worse the cross-over brake line is an egregious hazard to anyone doing any distance on rough or dirt roads, no less trails. The F/R integration and ABS are great for the tired distance rider, for challenging technical riding they can be a day wrecker or even deal breaker.

Gearing & Fueling

The first gear ratio combined with the Super Ténéré's factory idle speed, is, imho way too tall, requiring far too much clutch intervention for technical off road riding and VLS maneuver. An ADV machine should have a WR transmission, that should allow you to tick along at idle in literally trials like fashion, and offer sixth gear that operates as a super-cruise OD for economy. Again the Super Ténéré's transmission ratios aren't horrible, but the ratios are almost sport-bike close, and the tall first gear exacerbates fueling and throttle-by-wire control issues.

Forks: High Speed Damping & Flex

As this is just down to valving and aperture sizing, it's a virtually no cost, no brainer fix that should have happened too long ago. As well the Super Ténéré is a heavy bike with a rather small bore fork for the bike's weight and suspension travel, larger bore fork tubes that and a cartridge system that doesn't have to be disassembled to be drained (like the Stelvio's) would be a welcome improvement that wouldn't cost much to implement would improve the bikes handling, feel, and owner serviceability...

A Larger Lighter Fuel Tank

Yamaha could easily move things around and get more fuel capacity on the XTZ, look no further then at the effort they made at placing the radiator, and the enormous volume under the seat that with a more contemporary approach to fuel placement could probably get this bike's CG at the lowest in the class. But even sticking with the conventional fuel tank placement it would be even easier for Yamaha to add another 1.8 gallons of capacity, get rid of the heavy steel retro ghetto plastic trimmed boat anchor that rides a mile above the bike's CG and go with plastic...

Of course these are just my opinions, based on my preferences and how I ride. I really like my Super Ténéré, but I was also very pleasantly surprised by the Stelvio NTX -- so much so I will be buying one. Whether that's as an adjunct to, or replacement for my Super Ténéré remains to be seen, I could afford to keep both, and there are things I like better about the Super Ténéré... But if Yamaha give some of this, that comes in at less then the cost of incorporating a new paint color a little more attention, they'd have my attention.

What do you guys think? Anyone here try the Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX and like it?

 

[ace50]

You clearly have some legit issues, but I think a similar list could be made on most bikes. I've NEVER ridden a perfect bike yet and probably never will. ::003::

 

[SilverBullet]

Re: Super Ténéré 2017 & Beyond...

Every person I know that has owned a Stelvio has traded it in for either a Tenere or a GS. That sucker shakes at idle like a Harley.

Not looking forward to a Tenere valve check but air filter access is typical and not hard. Plug replacement is just a few extra easy steps further. Both of which is only every 25k miles for normal conditions so not an issue.

_

 

[spinalator]

I think they are legitimate concerns. The nearest Moto Guzzi dealer is 260 KM away, so that would be a deal breaker for me. I looked at one in the show room, and the Stelvio was a very nice bike. I am coming off of Honda V-4's, so maintenance and scraping knuckles are nothing new. This bike is too new to me to worry about maintenance stuff yet.

Regarding your list, I do seriously wonder if the engineers come up with one bike, design it, build it, and then the bean counters start removing things, changing things, and try to lean the whole process to shave 13 dollars off of manufacturing. Other bikes have had serious design flaws, maintenance headaches, and many times manufacturers actually ignore the riders for 5 or 6 years before addressing any of it. Some things are seriously cost neutral to change but improve things immensely.

 

[hoak]

Re: Super Ténéré 2017 & Beyond...

You clearly have some legit issues, but I think a similar list could be made on most bikes. I've NEVER ridden a perfect bike yet and probably never will. ::003::

Well I agree, I've owned a lot of motorcycles and none were perfect either -- and even if Yamaha address everything I'm mentioning here the Super Ténéré wouldn't be 'perfect'; it would however be a lot better...

Every person I know that has owned a Stelvio has traded it in for either a Tenere or a GS. That sucker shakes at idle like a Harley.

Every person you know that owned a Stelvio? How many would that be? I rode the thing and at idle it does shake, but only at idle and not much worse then a Super Ténéré with it's throttle bodies out of sync. And all the things I mention above the little Italian company does manage to get right with the NTX. Not saying the NTX is a better bike then the XTZ, just here's a nice example of these things done right for this kind of motorcycle...

Not looking forward to a Tenere valve check but air filter access is typical and not hard. Plug replacement is just a few extra easy steps further. Both of which is only every 25k miles for normal conditions so not an issue.

Well, my point here is more along the lines of -- the Super Ténéré is supposed to be a RTW Adventure bike, you may not be servicing these things under 'normal conditions' and it really wouldn't require much from Yamaha to take this in a better direction. No one does future iterations of the bike any favors by ignoring easily addressed design flaws...

I think they are legitimate concerns. The nearest Moto Guzzi dealer is 260 KM away, so that would be a deal breaker for me. I looked at one in the show room, and the Stelvio was a very nice bike. I am coming off of Honda V-4's, so maintenance and scraping knuckles are nothing new. This bike is too new to me to worry about maintenance stuff yet.

Well I'm in a similar position for Yamaha and Moto Guzzi dealers, neither are close to me -- making self-service more important, and the Super Ténéré regardless of other apologist owners that may be ideally situated for working on a bike, or conveniently located for paying someone else to do it, and/or are used to the ridiculous amount of dissassembly for basic maintenance, doesn't change the fact that there are some street bike absurd design choices made -- and I'm not the first to mention any of them.

Regarding your list, I do seriously wonder if the engineers come up with one bike, design it, build it, and then the bean counters start removing things, changing things, and try to lean the whole process to shave 13 dollars off of manufacturing.

Yes there are actually Production Engineers that have a job almost exactly like this, redesigning for cost effective manufacture.

Again, I like my XTZ, it's a nice bike -- I was just rather pleasantly impressed and surprised what the NTX does right where the XTZ falls down, you can even look to tests, long term ride reports, and owners to see this corroborated.

 

[Koinz]

I've never ridden the NTX, but looks like a nice bike. Doesn't that 8.5 gallon tank make it a little top heavy though?
Specs seem close to the xtz, but I'm sure the engine has a different personality.

My concern would also be dealer support and parts availability. I do see 3 dealers within 60 miles of me though.

The issues you mention don't seem like deal breakers to me with yamaha. Service intervals are nicely spaced out and reputation for reliability were first and foremost. No bike is perfect, who know maybe I'll be riding a motoguzzi some day ;D

 

[hoak]

I've never ridden the NTX, but looks like a nice bike. Doesn't that 8.5 gallon tank make it a little top heavy though?

I suppose with a full payload of fuel it would be; the one I rode was about half full and felt lower CG then my Super Ténéré...

Stelvio NTX owners point out that air cooled there's no high on the bike water mass, radiator, or engine cooling jacket, and that the NTX has all it's rotating shafts and masses in one compact plane putting them lower on the bike then a conventional transverse twin and the superficial appearance of the big light aluminum V heads would have you suspect.

I think adding fuel capacity to the Super Ténéré would raise it's CG to some degree, but it would be nice to have a larger fuel capacity as an option, you can always dirt donk with less in the tank if you need the bike to be more agile...

Specs seem close to the xtz, but I'm sure the engine has a different personality.

Yes, it's unique, and I'm pretty sure the old Moto Guzzi adage applies to the NTX like any 'Gootzi: "Ride a Moto Guzzi for twenty miles and you'll never buy one, ride it for two hundred miles and you'll never own anything else."

I didn't start the thread to pitch or sell the Moto Guzzi as a 'better bike', I don't feel that way, I do find a lot to like about the NTX that disappoints me with the XTZ and will probably get one, but not as a replacement for my XTZ.

That said some of the issues I mentioned are really egregious, easy for Yamaha to address, and would make keeping and trading up to another generation of XTZ a lot more compelling then just getting new paint job.

 

[EricV]

"egregious" i.e outstandingly bad; shocking. might be a bit over selling your feelings.

Nothing a engineer does is shocking. They play too much at their work stations. The person that designed the air box needs to go look at a car, because apparently he/she doesn't own one. A couple quick spring clamps ala Ducati from the 90's would have worked nicely for the air box cover.

As for your speculations concerning hydraulic valve adjustment, that's a no-go for a very simple reason. Cam profiles on the Super Ten are too steep for HLAs, (Hydraulic Lash Adjusters), and those cam profiles are there for good reasons. Same reason you don't find them on performance car engines in smaller displacements any more. Emissions are part of it, as are simple performance aspects of a small displacement engine with two cylinders.

There could be some better seals around the coils, but drains for those wells are unlikely on a water cooled engine. I've not seen any water cooled, dual overhead cam engine with drains in that area, (not that I am any authority). I've ridden 99k in lots of weather including plenty of torrential rain w/o seeing any water build up in the spark plug wells. I have read some of the UK riders having some issues related to corrosion there, but have not personally seen anything significant stress about.

Yes, it would be nice if the service items were easier to access. The air box's 13 screws are ridiculous. But hey, it's nice and rigid and we don't suffer from the KTM 1190's flexy air box and the 'dusting' of the engine with premature ring wear as a result either.

One of the early mods I did to my 2012 Super Ten was to replace the front brake lines with a two line, stainless steel braid set-up that eliminates the front cross over brake line. This was not difficult and cost around $120 USD for a one off set. I later made a few more sets and sold them, but liability and other issues stopped me from continuing to sell these kits. Anyone can remove their front brake lines and go to a hydraulic hose shop and get new ones made to do this. Searching this forum will find that and also pictures of another version made up by an Australian fellow, Wasp Works. He did a lot of interesting things in the early days.

Gearing - Well sure, a tractor like 1st with a double overdrive 6th would be sweet. I can't tell you the number of times I've needed a lower rpm at 90 mph... wait, still not at red line or near it. Hmm, guess it's superfluous to a degree. As for the low end, ever ridden any of the GS bikes? they have about an 11 mph idle speed in 1st, which is pretty fast. The 8-9mph of the Super Ten is pretty decent for most riding. A trials bike it's not. Sort of like your comment about riding technical with half a tank of fuel. Err, that's not really a good idea when that bit of technical might be rather off the beaten track, but you will burn some gas getting there. IOW, it's not a WR450 and never will be. Ultimately you're asking for a chain drive bike so you can roll your own to a degree. They make that in the big trailie market now, it's called a Honda Africa Twin, and friend, you should go test ride one if you are impressed by the Stevlio, (the pass or the bike, fwiw). I found the NTX a bit tight in the cockpit for my 5'11" 260lbs, (at the time). And the dealer network for the US is laughable.

The forks, and the suspension in general is certainly a compromise. At 46mm, the forks aren't all that tiny. Better internals would be awesome, but would as many of us pay for full Ohlins level suspension. Historically, no. I'm still running the OEM stuff, though swapped the rear shock for a fresher one at 50k, and yes, I'll go down the custom suspension road some time relatively soon. But I'll pick my poison among the aftermarket offerings.

A larger, lighter fuel tank? You're really bitching about the weight of the actual fuel tank when gas weighs ~7 lbs per gallon, (varying by density)? The aftermarket used to make a 11.5 gallon tank for the R1200GS and while plastic, it probably weighed more than the oem ~8.5 gallon steel tank. (I've only helped lift one when it was full of fuel so the owner could do some electrical repair under the tank on his 1150GS.

An under seat fuel cell, (tank), like the F800/700/650/GS twins would indeed lower the CG a bit, but there is not as much space there as you apparently believe. Another Aussie is working on an aux fuel cell in that location and it's nowhere near as large as the oem main tank is.

The Stevlio is a fine machine. From your perspective though, I'm surprised you are buying one. It pales in comparison to the AT, in terms of what you are disliking on the Super Ten.

 

[dietDrThunder]

The thing that bothers me the most is the ridiculous amount of disassembly required just to do essential maintenance like changing an air filter, spark plugs, fork oil, and worst of all a valve adjustment.

I swapped my air filter last weekend in about 15 minutes total, and I wasn't in a hurry. It's not a VW Beetle; the vast majority of modern bikes are worse than the S10 in this regard. I would like better forks too, so I agree there.

Proper Labyrinth Seals Around The Plug Cap/Coils

The spark plug wells have no drains, this is really an outright design gaff imho, that seriously needs to be addressed; dirt, corrosion, and water that has no proper exit in the plug wells and get into the coils is just not good and not necessary, seal the damn things properly if you're going to do it his way!

Agree

Breaks & Cross Over Break Line

It's disappointing to own a heavy ADV bike with the worst stopping distance in its class, with no easy means to disable the intervention or front/rear integration. Worse the cross-over break line is an egregious hazard to anyone doing any distance on rough or dirt roads, no less trails. The F/R integration and ABS are great for the tired distance rider, for challenging technical riding they can be a day wrecker or even deal breaker.

Like every bike, it is built to a compromise. If it were ready to rave Dakar as delivered, it wouldn't be such a great touring bike. Also, the f/r integration and ABS are great for a large majority of the S10's target market. I do wish the ABS were defeatable only for off-road though.

Gearing & Fueling

The first gear ratio combined with the Super Ténéré's factory idle speed, is, imho way too tall, requiring far too much clutch intervention for technical off road riding and VLS maneuver. An ADV machine should have a WR transmission, that should allow you to tick along at idle in literally trials like fashion, and offer sixth gear that operates as a super-cruise OD for economy. Again the Super Ténéré's transmission ratios aren't horrible, but the ratios are almost sport-bike close, and the tall first gear exacerbates fueling and throttle-by-wire control issues.

Again, you're asking that the target market for the bike be moved in a significant way towards off-road. The vast majority of S10 customers aren't interested in commuting on a bike that goes 11 mph in 1st gear. I find the S10's gearbox well-mated to the motor's power characteristics. If top gear were any taller, it would need a commensurate increase in hp/tq to avoid forced downshifts for any sort of acceleration; it's already borderline in this area imo.

Forks: High Speed Damping & Flex

As this is just down to valving and aperture sizing, it's a virtually no cost, no brainer fix that should have happened too long ago. As well the Super Ténéré is a heavy bike with a rather small bore fork for the bike's weight and suspension travel, larger bore fork tubes that and a cartridge system that doesn't have to be disassembled to be drained (like the Stelvio's) would be a welcome improvement that wouldn't cost much to implement would improve the bikes handling, feel, and owner serviceability...

I agree 100% that the suspension as delivered is pretty lame. The fact that suspension guys can mod the stock components and yield hugely awesome improvements tells me that there is no excuse for this lack of suspension performance. I completely disagree about flex. I'm assuming you're a young guy, as any suggestion that modern USD forks of this size are so flexible that it's an issue can't possibly have ridden anything built before 1990. I have road raced bikes with far smaller forks and had no problems with fork flex. This part approaches silly IMO.

A Larger Lighter Fuel Tank

Yamaha could easily move things around and get more fuel capacity on the XTZ, look no further then at the effort they made at placing the radiator, and the enormous volume under the seat that with a more contemporary approach to fuel placement could probably get this bike's CG at the lowest in the class. But even sticking with the conventional fuel tank placement it would be even easier for Yamaha to add another 1.8 gallons of capacity, get rid of the heavy steel retro ghetto plastic trimmed boat anchor that rides a mile above the bike's CG and go with plastic...

I agree here, although things aren't always as easy as they seem.

Of course these are just my opinions, based on my preferences and how I ride. I really like my Super Ténéré, but I was also very pleasantly surprised by the Stelvio NTX -- so much so I will be buying one. Whether that's as an adjunct to, or replacement for my Super Ténéré remains to be seen, I could afford to keep both, and there are things I like better about the Super Ténéré... But if Yamaha give some of this, that comes in at less then the cost of incorporating a new paint color a little more attention, they'd have my attention.

What do you guys think? Anyone here try the Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX and like it?

I test rode a Stelvio, and mostly enjoyed it. The suspension was awful, and freeway speed engine vibration was pretty bad, but the bike as a whole I thought was pretty cool. It was comfortable, I really liked the steering manners and feel; it felt to me like the frame and suspension geometry was really well thought out. It was also very comfortable, fitting me extremely well. During the time I was deciding what way to go (and I was leaning towards the Stelvio), a buddy of mine bought one. Within maybe 4 months, it had been back to the dealer three or four times (nothing catastrophic, but still had issues), and a couple of things fell off of it over that time- a bolt that held the case racks on, I think 2 fairing fasteners, and something else I can't remember. He convinced the dealer to give him full value trade on a KTM, and I decided that maybe Guzzis still had too much 'character' for me.

After reading your various thoughts on your preferences for the direction that the tenere should go in the future, I wonder if maybe the new Africa Twin might be more to your liking. What are your thoughts?

As for what I'd like to see for the next gen Tenere...

1. motor: I'd like to have about 110 at the wheel. I am perfectly happy with the gear ratios of the trans, but I don't see why shifting action can't be improved.

2. suspension: there is no reason for the forks to be so harsh. Make them better.

3. Stock seat: again, there is no good reason for it to slope forward the way it does. It isn't more expensive to make the seat more comfortable, so do it.

4. Side winglets should be standard.

5. Versions: I know this is not ever going to happen, but I would love to see two versions of the bike, one more off-road oriented, and one more street. I have no use at all for the astoundingly heavy spoked wheels, for example. Maybe the dirty one could be made lighter by eliminating the ABS and TC entirely, I dunno.

6. Misc.- one thing: there is no excuse for the OEM cases to be so cheesy at the price they get for them. Either make them $800 MSRP or make them not suck

 

[hoak]

As for your speculations concerning hydraulic valve adjustment, that's a no-go for a very simple reason. Cam profiles on the Super Ten are too steep for HLAs, (Hydraulic Lash Adjusters), and those cam profiles are there for good reasons.

I wasn't speculating, I'm well aware of Yamaha's design direction here, and the limitations in working with high profile cams -- they could however have put the shim buckets under the rockers and eliminated an enormous amount of unnecessary work and disassembly for valve adjustment.

My digression on a zero maintenance valve train is off canon -- a direction I'd rather have seen the bike taken then trying to compete with BMW for 0-60 times and petty specmanship; even though it's obvious you can get there in this power and displacement class (Buell); but realistically in terms of cost and engine evolution I know it's probably never happening with Yamaha.

There could be some better seals around the coils, but drains for those wells are unlikely on a water cooled engine.

Not could, should, again the "RTW ADV" premise of the bike, at speed the head angle to the wind presents those plug cap seals to massive dynamic air and hydrodynamic pressures; just about everyone that's ridden their Super Ténéré substantial distance in torrential rain has seen corrosion and crud in the plug wells, and many have experienced coil failure which can be very difficult to trouble-shoot.

As to drains; there are water cooled mills that have them, but the Super Ténéré having a dual spark setup in a very compact parallel engine does not make this practical -- but nice labyrinth seals on the plug caps with a more robust and linear hold down mechanism for the plugs then a single screw is a no brainer. If I were going on a long haul trip, where I'd knew there's be weather, pressure, and humidity changes, I'd be looking for thin, high temperature o-rings that might fit around the caps.

Yes, it would be nice if the service items were easier to access. The air box's 13 screws are ridiculous. But hey, it's nice and rigid and we don't suffer from the KTM 1190's flexy air box and the 'dusting' of the engine with premature ring wear as a result either.

Sure, but comparing bad design to egregious design does not make bad design good or acceptable for my money...

One of the early mods I did to my 2012 Super Ten was to replace the front brake lines with a two line, stainless steel braid set-up that eliminates the front cross over brake line. This was not difficult and cost around $120 USD for a one off set. I later made a few more sets and sold them, but liability and other issues stopped me from continuing to sell these kits. Anyone can remove their front brake lines and go to a hydraulic hose shop and get new ones made to do this. Searching this forum will find that and also pictures of another version made up by an Australian fellow, Wasp Works. He did a lot of interesting things in the early days.

Sure, and if a do a lot more off-roading on my Super Ténéré, this is a mod I'll do myself as well -- but it's something Yamaha could, and should rectify in 2017 and it would cost them virtually nothing... All they'll need is one dead rider, and then it will get done...

Gearing - Well sure, a tractor like 1st with a double overdrive 6th would be sweet. I can't tell you the number of times I've needed a lower rpm at 90 mph... wait, still not at red line or near it.

Sixth gear is acceptable and there I'm nit-picking; I doubt you could even sweet spot it for the torque and economy to satisfy a majority as everyone cruises at a different speed. But first is too tall again for the premise of RTW and ADV. There are lots of technical single track trails that the bike is capable of, and scenarios where you'll just need to donk -- but with its weight, limited brakes ,flexy front fork, there's no alternative but going slow, and a tall first gear makes that a lot of extra unnecessary work on a bike that has plenty off idle torque, and could 'best in class' at dirt donking.

The forks, and the suspension in general is certainly a compromise. At 46mm, the forks aren't all that tiny. Better internals would be awesome, but would as many of us pay for full Ohlins level suspension. Historically, no. I'm still running the OEM stuff, though swapped the rear shock for a fresher one at 50k, and yes, I'll go down the custom suspension road some time relatively soon. But I'll pick my poison among the aftermarket offerings.

We agree, but 46mm for a bike this of this weight with over 7" of travel, is in fact 'that tiny', they're a flexy mess on a rough path -- you can easily see it, well not easily around all that plastic but you can see the forks flex and feel it. Again it wouldn't cost Yamaha much to put some really fat 50mm Kayaba units up front, that could have their oil 'dump changed' rather then require disassembly, and and again fixing the high-speed damping would cost Yamaha literally nothing.

A larger, lighter fuel tank? You're really bitching about the weight of the actual fuel tank when gas weighs ~7 lbs per gallon, (varying by density)?

Bitching? No, making a constructive suggestion based on experience, yes. Like un-sprung weight, sprung weight high on the bike has a precipitous effect on handling... And just because you have a large tank doesn't mean you have to ride with it full all the time... I know for the rider that's never competed; thinking about fueling in terms of weight and distance might be too much mental effort -- but it's an option I value and use.

The aftermarket used to make a 11.5 gallon tank for the R1200GS and while plastic, it probably weighed more than the oem ~8.5 gallon steel tank. (I've only helped lift one when it was full of fuel so the owner could do some electrical repair under the tank on his 1150GS.

Ya, well, that's nice, I've never seen a plastic tank that weighed more then the steel tank it replaces, but who knows -- unicorn puppies why not... I wasn't suggesting 11.5 gallons I think getting it to about 8 would do it, and a couple other design issues could be addressed at the same time like fuel pump location, where it carries the fuel, and of course eliminating the 'trimmed' tank which will I'd bet like many others before it have substantial and costly (replacing the problem with the same problem) corrosion issues around the trim in time...

The Stevlio is a fine machine. From your perspective though, I'm surprised you are buying one. It pales in comparison to the AT, in terms of what you are disliking on the Super Ten.

Oh? As I qualified the things I'd like to see Yamaha address, all of them have been on the Stelvio; I'd be very interested in how you get to where 'it pales' in terms of these very criterion next to the Super Ténéré?

Summarily though Yamaha could address all the criticisms I've raised here in the 2017 model at nominal cost of less then a paint color scheme change; but for the guy that buys the bike to address this stuff it;s thousands of dollars and hundreds of man-hours forking around which may also obviate a warranty... Are you suggesting nothing should ever be changed or improved by the manufacture?

I agree 100% that the suspension as delivered is pretty lame. The fact that suspension guys can mod the stock components and yield hugely awesome improvements tells me that there is no excuse for this lack of suspension performance. I completely disagree about flex. I'm assuming you're a young guy, as any suggestion that modern USD forks of this size are so flexible that it's an issue can't possibly have ridden anything built before 1990. I have road raced bikes with far smaller forks and had no problems with fork flex. This part approaches silly IMO.

I'm considerably older, have raced ISDT (that should date me as it's called ISDE now), Hare Scrambles, and Motocross... You can disagree about flex, but the S10 is a tub, take it over something rough and you'll see and feel it yourself. Sure conventional forks on older bikes were worse, again because something was worse on an older lighter bike doesn't mean that something better is adequate; I find them extremely sloppy, and I don't have to push the bike that hard to reach limitations.

Obviously everyone that owns this bike uses and rides it differently, and I'm sure the fork is probably up to most people's needs; I can (and obviously do) live with the fork, but basic engineering math on tube diameter vs weight and length demonstrates that with a bike 200 lbs. heavier and double the suspension travel your going to need a much larger bore tube for the same stiffness as a lighter sport bike with half the suspension travel; more so if the suspension is going to get hammered. There are larger bore forks on many much lighter bikes with less suspension travel for a reason...

 

[dietDrThunder]

I apologize for the mistaken assumption, but you being an experienced off-road racer at such a very high level is as far to the other end of the spectrum as you can be, which kinda validates what I was saying, just on the other side of the coin. I accept that an ex-international off-road racer might find fault with the rigidity of the forks. The cross section of people who both are potential Tenere buyers, and also as highly accomplished a racer as you are probably has fewer than 100 people in it, world wide. They aren't going to build the bike for you guys, I'm sorry to say.

This is the same issue as the air filter I think. This isn't a KTM 300EXC, it's a street bike, primarily anyway. It wasn't designed thinking that the filter needed to be accessed every Sunday after the day's thrashing. Anyway, I guess all I'm getting at is that I think the bike is so good at so much, that expectations start to become unreasonable. If you look at street-oriented threads around the Interwebs, people complain about how it's not as smooth as the FJR1300 they traded in, or how when it rains they get wet. It's not a BMW RT, and it's not a woods racer. I think that the fact that these various conversations go on is evidence that the bike is 'righter' than many folks think.

 

[Stridey]

Re: Super Ténéré 2017 & Beyond...

I had a Stelvio for about 3 years. Great bike but my S10 is better except for the seat comfort. Stelvio seat is so comfy!
However the maintenance is higher albeit easier for things like valve adjustments. Valves every 6k miles. If I recall you have to remove the NTX engine crash bars to remove the sump mounted recessed oil filter. The Stelvio finally was sold due to just letting me down. Alternator broke about 15k miles, cams both sides replaced under free warranty but parts charged so Guzzi get a better deal at cost prices for replacement. My partner still rides her Stelvio had same issues with cams plus a lambda sensor replaced. Again expensive. The 2011 was the crossover for the new type cams being fitted to later models. Guzzi are owned by Piaggio group and they don't want to make small selling bikes on small capacity more mass appeal bikes ie. V7. At last years biggest bike show in Uk there was not a Stelvio or Norge shown. I reckon it's curtains for the Stelvio in production terms. Guzzi parts are hard enough to get in Europe let alone in the States.
It's a good bike with very limited market appeal. However consider the risks before buying and also log in Guzzitech.Com as on that site there are loads of members complaining of reliability issues. I know there are at least 5 former Guzzitech people on this forum who have given up on Stelvio and bought a S10!
Just letting you know the issues so you can make a decision but for me the S10 has better suspension in standard, rides better and doesn't need what a Guzzi needs and that is constant attention to keep it running on the road.
Hope that helps.


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[EricV]

@Hoak - What I'm getting from your comments is that you're simply coming from a different perspective than many Super Tenere owners. You clearly have a great deal of dirt experience on smaller motorcycles, but how much touring have you done on larger bikes?

I see similar complaints on other bike boards in that people want a bike to be something it's not. The Super Ten is not a dirt bike for technical single track. It can do a fair impression as a big trailie, but at some point you have to accept that it's big, heavy and designed at a price point.

In regards to RTW bikes, look at the advertising of many brands. None of those bikes are really a RTW bike either. But like the Super Tenere, many can be with some changes and improvements.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you don't have any manufacturing experience. I have 25 years of working in manufacturing with large corporations. Working with engineers you see lots of things that the average person doesn't see. Like marketing driven changes that have no benefit to the product, but add cost to the product. On the face of it, it doesn't make any sense, but corporate approves the marketing guys change anyway. In some cases over riding the engineers that designed the products. And then there is the price point driven issues. Better valving is 'cheap', but the average rider won't notice it, so it gets cut or ignored as off the shelf suspension bits are chosen instead. "good enough" sometimes rules the day. Sometimes that's so some other feature can stay.

You're offering some interesting suggestions for the next generation of Super Tenere. Some of those are pretty niche market. Some of those, like the cross over brake line, have been all too often chosen as a cost saving measure and may be aesthetic driven as well. BMW, for example, does this on the F800 bikes, but goes to the extra expense of s/s braided lines, hich baffles me. Seems like most riders would rather have a better design and rubber lines, but they don't understand better design sometimes, but pretty s/s lines make them giddy, despite no benefits on an ABS bike to lever feel and modulation.

Just saying no bike is perfect, and suggestions for changes might best focus on things with more mass market appeal.

 

[hoak]

I'm a little surprised and disappointed at the response here -- even with making it clear throughout the thread I'm talking about improving the Super Ténéré, ant not selling some other bike as better (I only used the Stelvio as a comparison as it demonstrates that some of these things can be done right at lower cost).

Many posts here seem focused on being an apologist for the Super Tenere's unnecessary limitations and disparaging the NTX -- rather the an honest recitation on how the XTZ could be made a better bike for future owners, or as a trade up for current owners.

None of the things I've suggested apply exclusively to elite or even skilled off-road riders, in fact the less skilled a rider and mechanic you are, the less money you have to spend, the more likely you're to benefit from every issue I've raised being addressed by Yamaha in a future iteration of the bike:

Proper Labyrinth Seals Around The Plug Cap/Coils

If you think this is trivial, wait till some laconic mechanic, anxious to wrap up your bike inadvertently sends chunks of crud down the spark plug tap into the cylinder -- and no one is the wiser, until...

Brakes & Cross Over Brake Line

There have been fatalities on other bikes with cross-over brake lines, you don't even have to be riding off-road to pick up enough road litter to wrap this thing around the wheel, locking the front brakes and sending you over the bars. One crippling accident documented on the ADVR forums even ate a fender extender, and went for a nice little air mission separate his motorcycle at over 70mph.

Gearing & Fueling

You don't have to be competing in AMA Class A Observed Trials, or Gymkhana, or running the Eco Rally to appreciate that a bike that's a little on the portly side, that also has a lot of it's design premise in reducing rider fatigue requires a lot of clutch fanning and intervention in stop-and-go traffic. I don't want to patronize anyone with an engineering education but 600+ lbs of motorcycle, and rider is a LOT of inertia to overcome at low speed. That the print press has given repeat attention to tall first gearing being a problem endemic to big-bore ADV bikes should I would think make it clear this isn't something I invented as a personal pet wish.

Forks: High Speed Damping & Flex

It's good that it's finally almost unanimous and universally agreed the high-speed damping up front needs attention. Similarly, in time I believe more will become more aware how fork flex is effecting the Super Tenere's handling negatively (more already are and commenting elsewhere).

Again, you don't have to be competing in sanctioned off-road competitive riding or even riding at or near the edge of the Super Tenere's operating envelope, or even riding off-road to appreciate that the forks are flexing under the enormous load of typically over 800 lbs of machine, fuel, farkels and rider. Add a passenger and gear, and fork flex is even more noticeable.

Granted the high speed damping exacerbates fork flex to some degree, but for a machine this heavy this is not a performance and stability fork that's even at the middle of the range. The bike may not 'need' a beefier fork, any more then it currently 'needs' a displacement of 1200cc with nearly 100 hp at the rear wheel -- but certainly most would benefit from it, and recognize the difference if they could compare it.

A Larger Lighter Fuel Tank

Subjective, individual 'pet wish' preference, sure, but it's a very popular request, and one that again can be executed by Yamaha would add comparatively nothing to the cost of the bike relative to doing it yourself.

Again, and for the sixth time in the thread I can count, I make it clear I'm not selling other bikes or disparaging the XTZ... But it seems some here may be afflicted with 'mine is best-itits' where the wish to believe their money bought them the magic unicorn of perfection that's unsurpassed and can never be improved.

I believe that the squeaky wheel does get the oil, eventually, if you're constructive (and I've tried to be), honest (I am), and make valid points (I have)... I'll never understand passive acceptance, defensiveness, and disparaging remarks that defend the status quo in anything that can be done better -- especially when the only cost of improvement is consent.

 

[SilverBullet]

Oh my sounds like a broken record. You've already stated these points multiple times, no need to keep repeating. In all honesty the only one of those that concerns me is the suspension and when the time comes I can remedy that with a few hundred bucks if I deem warranted. But that is just me and I know others might have concerns different than mine and that is what leads them to purchase another bike. Different strokes for different folks. I bought my Tenere at a price point I could not have bought any other adventure bike for. Not making excuses or closing my eyes to problems but not complaining about issues that I knew about already and accepted prior to the purchase.

Nobody is putting down the Stelvio, personally I think it is a nice looking bike. Mentioning its issues brings the reality of that bike's weaknesses to the table for it does have some. And you were kinda selling the Stelvio as you stated it had none of the issues you listed for the Tenere. You opened the door for the Stelvio's list of issues to be stated. Every bike has issues, that is why buyers need to research and determine what is important to them and for what price.

_

 

[Harry Dresden PI]

After a year with my 2014 ES I would suggest few improvements ...

1. Better windscreen mounts and OEM options for larger screens for us 6'3" riders

2. On the fly TC changing and ABS ....

3. More empty spaces under the battery side cover for ease to install a bigger fuse block (ES has little room)

4. OEM rider's backrest

 

[hoak]

After a year with my 2014 ES I would suggest few improvements ...

1. Better windscreen mounts and OEM options for larger screens for us 6'3" riders

2. On the fly TC changing and ABS ....

3. More empty spaces under the battery side cover for ease to install a bigger fuse block (ES has little room)

4. OEM rider's backrest

Yes, this is the sort of post I'd hoped for!

The stock windscreen isn't just a problem for taller riders; I'm 5'10" and can't get a sweet spot setting that doesn't buffet my head, the mount is fiddly & fragile, the whole business that's supposed to offer a nice mount for a GPS shakes and vibrates more then the screen on bikes that vibrate more, and the adjustments are very limited. With a more robust and simple mount with an angle adjustment more people could probably get things to work...

On/Off and On-The-Fly adjustment for all the electronic intervention and brake integration would also be a tremendous boon that I've seen a lot of people and reviewers pining for. I think virtually all the competition offers this -- hard to feature why Yamaha isn't stepping up.

And like the backrest -- there's a an enormous range of after-market farkles that satisfy things that while they aren't broken sure can be done better... Why Yamaha doesn't go with a larger branded after-market for the bike sewing deals with manufactures of popular parts is surprising. Perhaps the bike just isn't popular enough yet? But generally this is where this sort of sub-contracted after-market arrangement works best, and makes more money for the manufacturer, dealerships, and can offer a more dialed in product that looks like it belongs on the bike.

 

[decooney]

...I don't want to patronize anyone with an engineering education but 600+ lbs of motorcycle, and rider is a LOT of inertia to overcome at low speed.

...should allow you to tick along at idle in literally trials like fashion, and offer sixth gear that operates as a super-cruise OD for economy.

So, knowing what a 1200cc Super Tenere' is at 600lbs, you want to ride it "in trials like fashion"? Post that ride on Youtube when you do! ::017::

 

[hoak]

So, knowing what a 1200cc Super Tenere' is at 600lbs, you want to ride it "in trials like fashion"? Post that ride on Youtube when you do! ::017::

Now your trolling... Many reviews and posts on ADV R also comment that at the stock idle speed your simply moving too fast for VLS maneuver in stop-and-go traffic, and beating the clutch up. And if you've ever observed, Observed Trials -- you'd know the speeds range from 0 to 35 mph, with an average that's walking speed, and most trials bikes can go 50 to 70 in top gear. You can't run a Super Ténéré at walking speed without fanning the clutch constantly...

 

[craigd]

Hoak,

I basically agree with what you are saying and trying to do. Also, I am not trying to be antagonistic or a troll. But please, we use brakes to stop not breaks and something is more than something else not more then something else. Grammar lesson over, my apologies.