Stupid question of the day: How do YOU shift?

[vwboomer]

I've only owned 1 bike with a slipper clutch - Gasgas FSE450. It was great! dump from 5th to 2nd for a corner and it was smooth. On the track with my 530 XCW I would love it, but I need the Rekluse in the woods. ::010::

Not clutching for upshifting or downshifting.... I have tendonitis bad, and CTS. Not having to pull in the stiff ass clutch is a definite benefit.

 

[bnschroder]

So this may be another stupid question from someone who has been driving manuals all of his life and never thought of not pulling the clutch to shift on any of his bikes:
How do you shift without the clutch?
Obviously, you shift with your foot, but what do you do with the throttle on the upshift or downshift? Do you release for a downshift and keep steady for the upshift? I was riding today and wanted to try it, but I have to admit I was too afraid I would hear my gears crunch that I wanted to ask for some advice on this forum first.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ace50]

So this may be another stupid question from someone who has been driving manuals all of his life and never thought of not pulling the clutch to shift on any of his bikes:
How do you shift without the clutch?
Obviously, you shift with your foot, but what do you do with the throttle on the upshift or downshift? Do you release for a downshift and keep steady for the upshift? I was riding today and wanted to try it, but I have to admit I was too afraid I would hear my gears crunch that I wanted to ask for some advice on this forum first.

While on the throttle, the drive-line is in tension. So to shift up, (not first to second, longer throw) you just let off the throttle slowly while at the same time putting a little pressure on the shifter. It should just fall in gear quite easily. I wouldn't recommend doing this when riding hard, just normal stuff.

 

[ATMoto]

While on the throttle, the drive-line is in tension. So to shift up, (not first to second, longer throw) you just let off the throttle slowly while at the same time putting a little pressure on the shifter. It should just fall in gear quite easily. I wouldn't recommend doing this when riding hard, just normal stuff.

I actually find it shifts better when riding hard! Deep into the throttle, I'll put some slight up pressure on the shifter, then at the same time partly chop the throttle to unload the drivetrain and lift up on the shifter.

 

[ace50]

Guess it's just technique then...............

 

[rem]

My wife says I'm shiftless ........ ::012:: R

 

[Doug C]

My wife says I'm shiftless ........ ::012:: R

I thought I heard her say you where full of shift, or at least that's what I thought she said. ;D

 

[rem]

I noticed how you shifted gears there ..... ::012:: ::015:: R

 

[TNWalker]

I use my foot. 8)




Steve ::022:: ::26::

 

[gunslinger_006]

OP, here is my answer to your original query, FWIW:

Upshifts: I always use the clutch, and I use a light amount of preload on the shifter. I learned the preload shifting from a racer who taught me to ride, and I think it produces very quick, clean upshifts.

Downshifts: I always blip the throttle to rev-match the downshift as perfectly as possible. I find that if the engine is already climbing in RPM, even if I'm not perfectly at the right RPM yet, it will make the transition a lot more smoothly.

With respect to shifting style, I try to make my shifts as smooth as possible on general principal: I want to destabilize the bike as little as possible. The suspension is doing a lot when you have it under load (accelerating, braking, navigating unevenness in the tarmac, or under compression from hard cornering), so I want my shifting to be as quick and smooth as I can make it.

An example of this is if I am coming up on a second gear corner, but I'm currently in fourth gear. Usually I will try to make two very quick downshifts as I roll on the front brake. The downshifts act as a braking force on the rear wheel and by the time I have finished braking, I am usually in the right gear to start rolling on the throttle just as I hit the apex of the corner. This comes from wanting to break cornering into stages: Set my entry speed, set my turn in entry, do my turning as hard/early as I can, and get back on the gas as early as possible. Up or downshifting, if its rough, can unsettle the suspension in ways that will carry into the next phase. For example, if I have to drop two gears and I do it roughly, the bike can be still recovering from that as I begin hard braking and that sucks.

I don't like to get into the clutchless shifting debate. I have done a bit of it, it seems ok, if it saves you milliseconds on a fast lap time (or even if its just fun)...more power to you.

 

[cromschild]

I shift real fast and don't even need the clutch. I am just that damn good I guess. Totally kidding. Depends on the conditions and terrain. ::006::

 

[Will Rotten]

I've only shifted without the clutch on dirt bikes. Learned that when I was a boy. I recently learned to blip the throttle on downshifts. I used to just slip the clutch out slow on the street. On dirt I did it fast but locking up the back wheel is what I wanted at times. That being said, I now want to try clutchless up shifting on my S TEN.

 

[shrekonwheels]

I use the clutch as that is why it is there. I shift without one on Semi trucks just cause I know I am not supposed to when they r not mine, when they are I usually use the clutch as I hate repairs. Despite myths stating otherwise use yer clutch.

 

[colorider]

I've always used the clutch up or down shifting for the last 45 years (except for that time years ago getting home with a broken clutch cable), and I try to match engine rpm on downshifts.
For me, shift points are decided by how low my fuel level is, and how fast the traffic is going when I'm merging on to the freeway.

Yep! ::026::

 

[ATMoto]

Despite myths stating otherwise use yer clutch.

I was fine with your post till this point...Care to back that up with data?

Use the clutch if you want. Don't use it if you don't want. But don't spread miss-information without proof! ::009::

 

[scott123007]

I was reluctant to jump in this thread because I get just as much enjoyment watching a thread like this go through all the twists and turns just to see who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't, as I would describing how a sequential MC transmission works, and what relationship a clutch has to it. Unfortunately, when it is believed that there is a longer throw with a shift lever between first and second gear, than there is with the other gears, or words like "myth" get associated with harmless clutchless shifting, the potential of this thread derailing completely, is imminent.

These are the FACTS. A sequential motorcycle transmission does NOT need a clutch to shift once in motion. Ever. All you are doing by using your clutch is removing the tension between the CRANKSHAFT and the driven shaft of the transmission, which in turn releases tension from the driven and drive shafts themselves. The transmission itself has no clue how that tension was relieved. As soon as that tension is relieved, the gears are free to slide. You do however have to learn how to do it correctly, just as you have to learn how to operate a clutch. Disengaging your clutch does the identical thing to your transmission as rolling off your throttle the instant you up shift or blip your throttle the instant you down shift. It takes the tension off the crankshaft. Once an operator is proficient at it, there is less margin for error, and it is slightly more efficient than using the clutch. When you hear words like "shift assist pro", or "quick shifter", they are referencing electronic aids that a lot of new sportbikes, and some adventure bikes come with from the factory, that either cut power to the engine for a micro second as you move your shifter for an up-shift, or add power to the engine, (blip) as you down shift, which eliminates having to use the clutch for shifting, with the exception of starting from a dead stop.

Hope this helps to clear up some of the "myth".

 

[Checkswrecks]

I was reluctant to jump in this thread because I get just as much enjoyment watching a thread like this go through all the twists and turns just to see who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't, as I would describing how a sequential MC transmission works, and what relationship a clutch has to it. Unfortunately, when it is believed that there is a longer throw with a shift lever between first and second gear, than there is with the other gears, or words like "myth" get associated with harmless clutchless shifting, the potential of this thread derailing completely, is imminent.

These are the FACTS. A sequential motorcycle transmission does NOT need a clutch to shift once in motion. Ever. All you are doing by using your clutch is removing the tension between the CRANKSHAFT and the driven shaft of the transmission, which in turn releases tension from the driven and drive shafts themselves. The transmission itself has no clue how that tension was relieved. As soon as that tension is relieved, the gears are free to slide. You do however have to learn how to do it correctly, just as you have to learn how to operate a clutch. Disengaging your clutch does the identical thing to your transmission as rolling off your throttle the instant you up shift or blip your throttle the instant you down shift. It takes the tension off the crankshaft. Once an operator is proficient at it, there is less margin for error, and it is slightly more efficient than using the clutch. When you hear words like "shift assist pro", or "quick shifter", they are referencing electronic aids that a lot of new sportbikes, and some adventure bikes come with from the factory, that either cut power to the engine for a micro second as you move your shifter for an up-shift, or add power to the engine, (blip) as you down shift, which eliminates having to use the clutch for shifting, with the exception of starting from a dead stop.

Hope this helps to clear up some of the "myth".

::026::
Yup

 

[shrekonwheels]

I was fine with your post till this point...Care to back that up with data?

Use the clutch if you want. Don't use it if you don't want. But don't spread miss-information without proof! ::009::

As you seem to know the Myth of clutchless shifting in Semi Trucks is indeed still predominant. Eaton of course shudders at the thought despite it taking some time to wear down the gears. I have to say with a fair amount of commercial miles not using the clutch I have never had a problem, that does not mean one is not slowly being created. What on earth would make you think otherwise on a transmission on a bike which is far less robust? IF someone has something from the factory, and I mean directly from the factory stating otherwise I would entertain reading it. the "well if you understand a transmission and know that if you do it perfect it can be done without harm" statement is exactly why it has a clutch, to avoid you NOT doing things which are not to the microsecond and wearing on your bike.


It is an expensive investment for the majority of us, so it boggles me why someone would want to risk the possibility of an expensive unnecessary repair to save a fraction of a second on their freeway lap times.

 

[ATMoto]

As you seem to know the Myth of clutchless shifting in Semi Trucks is indeed still predominant. Eaton of course shudders at the thought despite it taking some time to wear down the gears. I have to say with a fair amount of commercial miles not using the clutch I have never had a problem, that does not mean one is not slowly being created. What on earth would make you think otherwise on a transmission on a bike which is far less robust? IF someone has something from the factory, and I mean directly from the factory stating otherwise I would entertain reading it. the "well if you understand a transmission and know that if you do it perfect it can be done without harm" statement is exactly why it has a clutch, to avoid you NOT doing things which are not to the microsecond and wearing on your bike.


It is an expensive investment for the majority of us, so it boggles me why someone would want to risk the possibility of an expensive unnecessary repair to save a fraction of a second on their freeway lap times.

The fact that you keep comparing the transmission in a semi truck to the one in a motorcycle shows that you aren't understanding how a MC transmission works. Keep using your clutch if it makes you feel better, just know that if you don't, it's not hurting anything. Kind of like not using your turn signal on an empty road isn't hurting anything. Use it if you want, but it doesn't matter if you don't. Also, your "microsecond" statement is incorrect. It's really not difficult to do it well. If you can shift up and down smoothly with the clutch, then you are more than capable of doing it without the clutch.

I know that wiki isn't the 'end all' of information, but maybe if you read the first section you will see what I, and others are talking about, and save yourself the trouble of actually learning fully how these transmissions work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_manual_transmission

Edit: and since you said you want it directly from the factory, but didn't say what factory, I sent it from my factory, where I am a mechanical enginerd.

 

[Checkswrecks]

The problem and controversy - as in so many things - is that a group of people don't learn that there is a little technique to it.


Shifting is not the problem, the problem is not relieving the torque on the parts when you do the shift. As others wrote, you do need to either pull the clutch or use the throttle to do this. When people hear that they can shift without the clutch and do it while applying power, then yes, they can bend a shift fork or do other damage.


And blame it on others.