spokes - need advice

[MrTwisty]

The spokes are always in tension, not compression, so the fact they're pinned in the center does not affect their reaction to loads. And the idea that a small strip of deforming plastic would materially affect the reaction of a steel spoke under thousands of lbs of tension doesn't make much sense either.

- Mark

You're the expert Mark, but 6 N-m of torque, which is the Yamaha specified torque for the spokes (check your manual), will not generate thousands of pounds of tension. I promise you that the spokes are often under a compression load.

 

[markjenn]

You're the expert Mark, but 6 N-m of torque, which is the Yamaha specified torque for the spokes (check your manual), will not generate thousands of pounds of tension. I promise you that the spokes are often under a compression load.

I was exaggerating as to the load on each individual spoke, but it is definitely in the hundreds of pounds. The whole idea of a spoke-wheel is that you put the spokes under continuous no-load tension so that when the wheel is under load the spokes on the bottom always remain in tension while the spokes on the top have the no-load tension + the weight of the bike + the live load. Spokes in a motorcycle wheels are never designed to take compression loads. How would a nipple that is a slip-fit in the hub take a compressive load? You're WAY off base here.

We've talked this out. Agree to disagree.

- Mark

 

[MrTwisty]

I understand that the spokes should stay in tension. What I am saying is that the S10 wheels are seeing compressive loads on the spokes and that is why they frequently come loose and break.

Perhaps the wheels aren't strong enough or the spoke tension is too low.

 

[MrTwisty]

Duh! I just realized that the spokes will slide on the inner hub under compression so compression of the spoke is impossible. My apologies Mark.

Perhaps the zip ties bind the spoke causing it to break.

I just know that when I put zip ties on my spokes, I broke a lot of spokes. Before zip ties, they just came loose.

 

[markjenn]

I just know that when I put zip ties on my spokes, I broke a lot of spokes. Before zip ties, they just came loose.

I can't argue with your anecdotal data and perhaps there is something going on where the zip ties change the dynamics enough to introduce some new loads. But I strongly doubt it. I view zip ties as simply a safety net that prevents a loose spoke from flailing around so much - nothing more and nothing less. I'm not a huge proponent of zip ties because a properly maintained and non-abused wheel shouldn't need them, but they are a safety net that helps from keeping a broken spoke from doing further damage.

BTW, tieing spokes together (typically with safety wire) is required for some forms of dirt racing. Again the rationale is safety, not wheel strength.

There is no doubt in my mind that Yamaha's S10 rear wheel is somewhat under-designed.

- Mark

 

[vilageidgit]

I wonder why Yamahuh did not use a double ridge rim like the front wheel
the Triumph Exploder uses such a rim on its rear wheel,the rims look similar on both bikes
would that solve the freedom seeking spokes problem

 

[markjenn]

I wonder why Yamahuh did not use a double ridge rim like the front wheel

Didn't realize the Explorer has the double-flange rear. Is the front double-flanged too?

To my mind, and thinking strictly from a strength standpoint, Yamaha has it reversed - the rear should have the stronger double-flange and the front should be single. I've seen speculation that the front sees different side-loads and the double-flange gives it stiffer characteristics not needed by the rear. I really don't know.

- Mark

 

[vilageidgit]

The Exploder has a double flange on the front,from the pics from the inturdnet
they are made by Saxess,D.I.D makes the Supa10 rims
they look alike,thought it was the same company making both rims
Saxess rims bend too according to
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/down_and_dirty/
so much for the idea of lacing a Exploder rear rim to a Supa 10 hub

 

[becoyote]

No clue on whether the zip tied contributed to the problem but my 4 four broken spokes were all broken at the flange. All 4 were also held perfectly in place by the ties.

 

[MrTwisty]

All of mine have been broken at the flange. I haven't kept count, but I've probably replaced 10 by now, all on the rear. The most I've had at once is 3. I never broke a spoke until I zip tied them, but I did loose the nuts off of 2 spokes prior to zip tieing them. I replaced 3 broken spokes last week and removed the zip ties, so we'll see how it goes from here.

 

[OldRider]

Why not just leave the zip tie loose? I don't think the zip ties have any influence on spokes breaking, but leaving them loose will guarantee no pressure on the spoke and it will keep the spoke from flying around if it breaks.

 

[Curt]

All of mine have been broken at the flange. I haven't kept count, but I've probably replaced 10 by now, all on the rear. The most I've had at once is 3. I never broke a spoke until I zip tied them, but I did loose the nuts off of 2 spokes prior to zip tieing them. I replaced 3 broken spokes last week and removed the zip ties, so we'll see how it goes from here.

Wow, where have you been riding? Pothole ridden roads, or technical dirt with knobbies?

 

[OldRider]

Curious, how many riders have had spoke problems while riding 100% on the street? I've only got 5500 miles on the S10 and it has been 100% street riding with no loose spokes at all. I think the spoke problem is a Yamaha flaw with this bike. I put 40K on my last GS12 including everything the Haul Road could throw at it and never had a loose spoke.

 

[MrTwisty]

Wow, where have you been riding? Pothole ridden roads, or technical dirt with knobbies?

I broke another one today. It's the first one to break without zip ties, but it is possible that the zip ties fatugued the spoke while they were on and it gave way today while under stress.

I have a KTM 450 for the technical stuff. I ride the Tenere almost exclusively 2-up, about 60% street and 40% forest service roads. At times when the spirit of adventure has taken over my judgement, I have taken the Tenere places I probably shouldn't, but I try to minimize those episodes because the Tenere is no dirt bike and if I were to drop it I might cry.

 

[yz454]

You have adjusted wrong ,probably to tight . I beat mine off road all the time one up and two up and I don,t break spokes .

 

[MrTwisty]

You have adjusted wrong ,probably to tight . I beat mine off road all the time one up and two up and I don,t break spokes .

The manual says to torgue the spokes at 6N-M and that's what I do. 6N-m is not very tignt, just a little more than hand tight. How tight do you tighten yours?

 

[scott123007]

I'm going to jump in here ONCE and give you guys my opinion for what it's worth. I come from the days when most MC wheels had spokes. What I can tell you is not all wheels and all bikes are created equal. Some bikes had a lot more problems with spokes coming loose than others and it had more to do with the engine characteristics than the wheel as the wheel was used on different model bikes! I worked as a wrench at a multiline dealership for 12 years. From then till now I've laced well over a couple of hundred wheels. It is damn near impossible to true a wheel by torque alone. Maybe when lacing wheels, the factories have special jigs that hold the rim and hub in such a way that all the spokes can be tightened with a certain torque and the wheel is true when released. Not so for the layman. Furthermore, Buchanan, probably the most popular spoke maker on earth stresses the importance of how tight spokes should really be. What I can tell you is too tight is better than too loose every time. Having read the issues many have had with the spokes on the S-10, I checked my spokes when I got my bike (already had 1200 miles on it) and felt they were all a little too loose. Some were a little looser than others, so I snugged them up first and then I tightened them ALL up about another 1/4 turn. The bike now has 28000 miles (80/20 road/offroad) and to this day I have never had a spoke issue. YMMV

P.S. it would be purely coincidental if after tie wrapping your spokes you had broken ones. That is a practice that has been done for many years and has no adverse effects. In the case of the S-10, it even makes more sense because unlike a conventional wheel where the spoke usually won't flop about if the nipple gets loose, the S-10 is not so fortunate.

 

[yz454]

Scott hit it on the nose , never used a torque wrench. I,am an old guy I use fell and sound.

 

[Hungry Tiger]

Pasadena Yamaha chief mechanic also plays in a band. Use E flat. Crap, Yamaha should issue tuning forks with the owners manual.

 

[Bigbore4]

Pasadena Yamaha chief mechanic also plays in a band. Use E flat. Crap, Yamaha should issue tuning forks with the owners manual.

There's three of em attached to either side of the fuel tank.