Shorai LiFe batteries?

[elizilla]

In the hard starting thread, people are talking about Shorai batteries. Since I may be shopping for a battery soon, I decided to start a thread just for them.

So... anyone tried one? Google offers up a number of positive reviews, and I recall seeing Shorai at the show last year, so they're intentionally selling to us. But I have an EE friend who is currently working a lot with battery charging technology, and he says that the charging circuits in a bike are designed to work around the charging characteristics needed by traditional lead acid batteries. He says that LiFe batteries need something different from their charging systems, for long term reliability. Anyone here know anything about this?

 

[stevepsd]

I have run one for a bit over a year on my KTM without issue.

Several of my buds over on the Tiger1050 forum are running them in their Tigers (some as long as a year) with no issues.

When my stock batteries die, they are all getting replaced with Shorais'.

I do not know what Shorai has built-in their battery packs for cell balancing (a real issue with LiPo's) or over-charge protection (LiPo's are very sensitive to charge voltage, LiFe's not so much), but the Shorais' are approved for charging with a Battery Tender. Shorai now has their own charger, which attaches to the balancing port on the battery case, which will balance each cell.

P.S. I wish these were available when I had the TDM....changing the battery on that bike was a bit 'involved'...but I still miss her.

 

[GrahamD]

Ok here is the thread where the boss answers a few questions about these batteries...

http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=32193&highlight=gel+battery


LiFePho4 OK

LiPO not OK for bikes.

ShoraiTech is the Pres of the company apparently.

PS: I really don't want to get into a flame war here, but your statements regarding the fire hazard threat of LiFePO4 chemistry aren't right. The web is full of inaccurate statements on this point. A voltage of 24V PER CELL is required to push LiFePO4 into liquification before a fire is possible. That means the charging system would have to output 80V+ to even enter the possibility. No motorcycle will continue to run at anywhere near 80V. Ignition systems would be likely to fail at anything above 18V... As for "oxidation-induced life problems" that Lithium have, that is just saying that lithium age like everything else on the planet. It isn't a "problem" nor does it imply a short life.

Cheers
Graham

 

[Tremor38]

Ok here is the thread where the boss answers a few questions about these batteries...

http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=32193&highlight=gel+battery


LiFePho4 OK

LiPO not OK for bikes.

ShoraiTech is the Pres of the company apparently.

Cheers
Graham

Those ignorant, snooty BMW-tards refuse to believe that anything can rival or exceed their high-coveted Odyssey batteries. Same thing goes with Arrow Stich/Darien/Road crafters being the only show in town. :

Shorai seems to really have their stuff together:

They have a pretty informative Q and A section at their website. I pulled this from it:

"At actual cranking currents - which are always well below CCA, LFX deliver up to two volts more than an equivalent-CCA-rated lead acid battery. Current alone won't start anything. It is the current multiplied by voltage that does the work (watts). In reality, this means that you can multiply the LFX CCA rating by 1.5x to compare to a Lead Acid battery CCA. For example, our 270A CCA LFX18 series provides about the same cranking voltage as a 405A-CCA-rated lead acid battery (from a quality lead-acid maker; some CCA specs we've tested on the cheapest lead acid seemed to be plucked from thin air)."

Coming from an electrical/tron background, he's speaking my language. ::008::

That "270 CCA FX18" they speak of is one the batteries they list as a replacement for the OEM S10 Batt. Sounds like just what doctor ordered because you maintain a higher voltage during cranking which should improve cranking speed and send more voltage to the exciter for a healthier spark. I've heard nothing but good reviews about these batteries...especially since they improved the strength of the terminals. I remember they went completely out of stock on most of their models for awhile becaused they refused to make any more of the old type while they were re-tooling. What I also thought interesting was how they explained that the LiFePO4 batt internal resistance increases more than that of a lead-acid in very cold temps, but the LiFePO4 actually gets stronger with each successive crank (up to a certain point, of course) as the battery warms up, thus dropping the internal resistance. The lead acid begins stronger, but weakens with each successive crank.

As a counter point, a lead acid battery will weaken in a more linear fashion. The Shorai will sustain higher voltage for any given current and will last longer under high current conditions as well as any useful voltage, but you don't really have a slow dimming effect until discharge. They just drop out at a certain point.

That said, if the OEM ever starts messing with me as it is with a few others, I won't hesitate to replace it with a Shorai. They offer both a normal and an even deep-cycle option for a few $$ more...I'll probably pony-up for the strongest one.

 

[Blue_eyes]

Those ignorant, snooty BMW-tards refuse to believe that anything can rival or exceed their high-coveted Odyssey batteries. Same thing goes with Arrow Stich/Darien/Road crafters being the only show in town. :

Shorai seems to really have their stuff together:

They have a pretty informative Q and A section at their website. I pulled this from it:

"At actual cranking currents - which are always well below CCA, LFX deliver up to two volts more than an equivalent-CCA-rated lead acid battery. Current alone won't start anything. It is the current multiplied by voltage that does the work (watts). In reality, this means that you can multiply the LFX CCA rating by 1.5x to compare to a Lead Acid battery CCA. For example, our 270A CCA LFX18 series provides about the same cranking voltage as a 405A-CCA-rated lead acid battery (from a quality lead-acid maker; some CCA specs we've tested on the cheapest lead acid seemed to be plucked from thin air)."

Coming from an electrical/tron background, he's speaking my language. ::008::

That "270 CCA FX18" they speak of is one the batteries they list as a replacement for the OEM S10 Batt. Sounds like just what doctor ordered because you maintain a higher voltage during cranking which should improve cranking speed and send more voltage to the exciter for a healthier spark. I've heard nothing but good reviews about these batteries...especially since they improved the strength of the terminals. I remember they went completely out of stock on most of their models for awhile becaused they refused to make any more of the old type while they were re-tooling. What I also thought interesting was how they explained that the LiFePO4 batt internal resistance increases more than that of a lead-acid in very cold temps, but the LiFePO4 actually gets stronger with each successive crank (up to a certain point, of course) as the battery warms up, thus dropping the internal resistance. The lead acid begins stronger, but weakens with each successive crank.

As a counter point, a lead acid battery will weaken in a more linear fashion. The Shorai will sustain higher voltage for any given current and will last longer under high current conditions as well as any useful voltage, but you don't really have a slow dimming effect until discharge. They just drop out at a certain point.

That said, if the OEM ever starts messing with me as it is with a few others, I won't hesitate to replace it with a Shorai. They offer both a normal and an even deep-cycle option for a few $$ more...I'll probably pony-up for the strongest one.

::026::

Especially that RFW guy, he is obsessively bashing Shorai.

The issue with the BMW is all due to a battery that was exactly up to BMW's spec's but BMW's spec's were too low / and altered upwards afterwards by BMW as it seems..

I like what I read about those Shorai batteries. Although, with our XT1200Z's I see no real advantage saving 3 kg... That's like 3 liters of petrol more or less in the tank... I do not notice any handling difference between a full petroltank and an empty one... so let alone 3 kg...

 

[Blue_eyes]

Shorai LFX Lithium Battery Review: http://www.motorcycle.com/products/shorai-lfx-lithium-battery-review-91165.html

 

[elizilla]

I like what I read about those Shorai batteries. Although, with our XT1200Z's I see no real advantage saving 3 kg... That's like 3 liters of petrol more or less in the tank... I do not notice any handling difference between a full petroltank and an empty one... so let alone 3 kg...

I like what I see, too. And sure, it may not save a TON of weight, but it partially offsets the weight I've added with crash bars, right? Also, since it's so much smaller, it frees up space in the battery box for some farkles.

 

[stevepsd]

The only shortcoming with LiFe batteries is that when cold they need some current draw, like headlights being on for a minute or so, which will allow the battery to supply the current necessary for starting. Since the headlights on on the ST do not come on until the engine starts you might need to turn on some other equipment (heated grips, heated liners, etc) before hand.

Now, I have not experienced this with my Shorai (temps in the low 30's) but others have.

Here is the Shorai FAQ on this:

Lithium do increase in resistance more as temperature drops, compared to lead-acid. However, they also react to cranking under cold conditions in a much better way. Lead-acid will increase resistance on each subsequent cranking attempt, until it won’t turn over. If your LFX fails to start the engine on first crank, that first crank has warmed the battery, and the second attempt will be much stronger, and so on until you get a good start.

Shorai LFX are much better in cold-weather conditions than other-brand lithium starter batteries, due to our eXtreme-rate formulation with low resistance. Down to about 20 degrees fahrenheit (-7C) most users find that they can start normally on first crank. If your headlight comes on at key-ON, it is good for the batteries to flow some current before cranking in cold weather. The suggested headlight-on time before cranking depends on the temperature. If starting at 40f (5C), 30 seconds will help wake the battery and increase cranking performance. If at 0f (-17C), leave the lights on for 4~5 minutes before cranking. The result will be a better first crank, and longer battery life. Any other accessories that can be turned on before cranking can also be used for this purpose, such as heated gear, radio, etc...

 

[GrahamD]

I like what I see, too. And sure, it may not save a TON of weight, but it partially offsets the weight I've added with crash bars, right? Also, since it's so much smaller, it frees up space in the battery box for some farkles.

elizilla, just from experience with cars that could be a bit challenging to start, I would recommend going for the highest capacity battery you can fit in that spot.

1) You have more up your sleeve in case you need to run things without the engine, more crank time, faster cranking.
2) The battery will be less stressed in normal service and "on average" will last longer.

They are basically the same technology as you get (or used to get) in electric vehicles. (Tesla Roadster, Zero motorcycles etc) They were designed to deliver huge power continuously, safely and take a 1000 odd charge discharge cycles reliably.

My only concern with these batteries has ever been the compatibility with standard lead acid charge circuits.
This has been addressed which leaves me with a warm fuzzy feeling.

They are really tough, robust technology. That is exactly why this style of battery came into existence. ::008::

 

[Blue_eyes]

I like what I see, too. And sure, it may not save a TON of weight, but it partially offsets the weight I've added with crash bars, right? Also, since it's so much smaller, it frees up space in the battery box for some farkles.

True! If I ever need to replace the OEM battery, I will choose one like the Shorai ones! ::021::

 

[elizilla]

Well, I decided to order the Shorai. I haven't fully proven that the stock battery is toast, but it's looking more and more that way, and it's always fun to try new stuff, so what the heck?

 

[GrahamD]

Cool,

Something for you...

Shorai_Battery.wmv

And at 3:30

Check out the weight on a post office scale..
Shorai Lightweight Motorcycle Battery Review - Make your motorcycle 4 pounds lighter.

Cheers
Graham

 

[Tremor38]

Why does it not surprise me that out of the many positive reviews -some straight from users in this forum- you chose to dig until you found something remotely negative about it since it is, after all, an aftermarket item? We understand you are anti anything that isn't OEM. Ever stop to think that a Gold Wing might have a pretty big OEM battery to start with.... it has enough room for that, ya know? ;-)

 

[GrahamD]

I don't know what the Goldwing boys installed, but if it was a direct replacement, you would assume it would about the same.

On the other hand, if it was the same physical size as the OEM, they would have only saved 9lbs in weight instead of 12 but would have had more grunt.

Depends on what your priorities are.
As I mentioned previously, I would much prefer the same size and more capacity, than saving a couple of Kg. It's still saving weight as it is.

Cheers
Graham

 

[Tremor38]

I don't know what the Goldwing boys installed, but if it was a direct replacement, you would assume it would about the same.

On the other hand, if it was the same physical size as the OEM, they would have only saved 9lbs in weight instead of 12 but would have had more grunt.

Depends on what your priorities are.
As I mentioned previously, I would much prefer the same size and more capacity, than saving a couple of Kg. It's still saving weight as it is.

Cheers
Graham

Yeah, I think we have the 'vulcan mind meld' happening in that respect...especially since the higher capacity option doesn't really cost much more. If I'm on a bike of the Tenere's purpose and weight class, what's the point of shaving a few pounds to 570lbs vs whatever? With a Goldwing, that approach is doubly ridiculous.

 

[Turk]

On shorai website I could not find the model that fits the S10. Which one should we get the replace the oem battery?

 

[Tremor38]

Look it up by battery model number YTZ12S. They have a choice of regular or extra capacity, deeper cycle.

 

[elizilla]

I'm with you guys - I ordered the extra capacity one. It saves almost as much weight, the difference between them is what, 0.2 lbs? And it hardly costs any more.

 

[stevepsd]

On shorai website I could not find the model that fits the S10. Which one should we get the replace the oem battery?

Here are the ones to fit the ST:

http://www.shoraipower.com/SearchBattery.aspx?Mode=OEM&searchterm=YTZ12S

I would personally go for the larger LFX18A1-BS12 myself.

-steve

 

[jajpko]

Here's the link to the discussion on the Goldwing forum.
Do a search on the poster Fred H. He has done some good research on this battery. He is a very intelligent person and gives good straight info.
Knowing that you will need to put a load on the battery, before using it, will help.

http://gl1800riders.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301511

http://tinyurl.com/d6hzhru

http://tinyurl.com/bt3hxzz