Rear wheel out of alignment

[jaeger22]

My rear is not straight! ??? No not me, the bike! ::005::
I first found this when looking into why my bike pulls slightly to the left when I take my hands off the bars. Turns out I can offset the pull easily by just putting a few more pounds of gear in the right side case. That makes it track straight so I decided to: ::021::
However now I am concerned about tire life.
Last year I did a coast to coast and back with an excursion into BC Canada, on my old V-Strom . The total trip was a little over 10K miles. I put a new Battle Wing on the rear right before I left and made the entire trip on that one rear tire. It was done when I got back but only just done with no drama.
So I just did a 4,300 mile run (Orlando -Trinidad Colorado-Orlando with side trips) on the S10 and I spooned on a new BW tire before I left. The tire has lost .200" of it's .345"original tread depth so is 2/3 worn out. That indicates I will only get around 6,500 to 6,800 miles out of this tire. I start another trip next weekend that I expect to total about 2,500 miles and I am worried if I will make it back on that tire or have to buy one on the road.
So OK, I know you are thinking, you dummy, it is a heaver and more powerful bike so you should not expect as much tire life. :
All true. However I do not expect a 35% reduction in tire life for the same conditions. In both cases it was long runs of highway, much of it interstate, with the bikes loaded with gear, and the same rider. At constant speed running down the interstate, the only difference is the additional weight of the S10, maybe 100 LB, and that should not have a huge effect on tire life. During acceleration, sure the S10 will cause more wear, but on these trips, that was only a VERY small percentage of the time.
So that got me thinking about the alignment issue again. The rear wheel pointing off to the side will for sure accelerate tire wear. How much of a factor? Not sure.
I re-measured the alignment again and this time very carefully and accurately. I used the sight down the side of the rear tire method and then the string method, and then a combination of the two. Using the sight method to insure the strings were absolutely straight and in perfect alignment with the rear tire. The result is that the center line of the rear tire intersects the front tire 3/8"to the right of center. Not a LOT but enough to effect tire wear? I am not sure but I expect it is. I know I would never accept this much alignment error on my chain bikes.
I loosened the axle nut and pinch bold, pulled the rear tire to the left with a bar clamp to take up all play toward the left and then re tightened everything to see if I could get it more aligned. But it only came in 1/16".
So do all the S10's have the same issue? All the same amount or different. I am guessing the latter. Have any of you checked and have results you can post?
Now I am thinking, how can I correct this alignment issue? No rear wheel adjusters like on the chain bikes. But, the wheel needs to go back on the left side. (or forward on the right). By my calculations, .072". or a little over 1/6". So I if I make a spacer and install it where the final drive attaches, it should push it back just enough to get it in perfect alignment. The only down I can see, at lease until I have it apart, is that the splines will engage that much less but I don't think that could be a problem.
Thoughts? Anyone else observed this?

 

[Rasher]

Probably within acceptable tolerances, one of the disadvantages of a shaft bike over a chain driven model, you cannot just go and get a laser alignment done. I would not worry about it myself, likely to do more harm than good if you start messing with spacing shaft components.

As for tyre wear, I find so many variations with bikes and tyres it is hard to really draw any conclusions, the extra weight is there all of the time, so even on those long runs it is taking more shove to keep the mass moving - and aerodynamics will also come into play so it could be a significant extra load on the tyre even when cruising. Temperatures and the state of the road can also make a difference, so even the same route on the same bike sperated by a few days could have different wear results.

The torque of a motor really cannot be underestimated in tyre life, I tend to use the grunt of bikes, even with big fours I tended to short-shift, but use lots of gas and I think this is unkind to tyres, I never get great tyre mileages, even compared to mates who seemed more speed / rev happy.

The S10 throws out LOTS of low down drive, which I think is a big enemy of tyres, most big twins will eat through tyres quicker than smoother four cylinder bikes, even if riding together the whole time.

Not forgetting manufacturers do sometimes mess with tyre compounds during a tyres model life, so it is not out of the question for your next Tourance / Annakee / TR91 to be a bit different to the last one.

Rubber burn is just a running expense to me, no different to fuel, I know for each mile I do it costs me a couple of pence for servicing, a few more for tyres and a bit more again for fuel

::021::

 

[Obrianmcc]

You need to measure from a fixed symmetrical point, ie the swing arm pivot.

 

[jaeger22]

Thanks Rasher, all good points and well thought out. I agree with:

Rubber burn is just a running expense to me, no different to fuel, I know for each mile I do it costs me a couple of pence for servicing, a few more for tyres and a bit more again for fuel

But the big difference to me is that I can get fuel all along my rout. But changing tires 2000 miles from home is a bit of a PIA. I have done it, changing one at my daughters house in Portland a few years ago, and once I had to buy one at a shop and pay them to change it when I had a tire cut so bad I could not repair it (in Jackson MS, 1000 mils from home. ) but I much prefer to change them in my own garage. I would hate to continually give up range for lack of a minor spacer.Assuming that can be done without causing any other issues. I will have to tread carefully here. :

Obrianmcc. as for:

You need to measure from a fixed symmetrical point, ie the swing arm pivot.

That would be a good thing if we had anything symmetrical to measure from but if we do, I can find it. Our swing arms are recessed on the left side to make room for the drive shaft. On most bikes that is a good way to measure but I am thinking the most accurate is to measure where the tire is pointing because that is all the really maters in the end.

 

[markjenn]

Your bike may (or may not) be out of acceptable alignment - if a few pounds extra in one saddlebag corrects any pull, I vote that it is probably within tolerances - but I think you're tiling at windmills to think this slight alignment issue is the cause of your tire wear variances. You've already identified the most likely factors for the difference (100 extra lbs and 50% more power), but in addition, there are just so many variables involved in tire mileage, I don't think you have enough data to draw any firm conclusions.

I'd go back to your original plan... ::021::

- Mark

 

[EricV]

However now I am concerned about tire life.

So I just did a 4,300 mile run (Orlando -Trinidad Colorado-Orlando with side trips) on the S10 and I spooned on a new BW tire before I left. The tire has lost .200" of it's .345"original tread depth so is 2/3 worn out. That indicates I will only get around 6,500 to 6,800 miles out of this tire. I start another trip next weekend that I expect to total about 2,500 miles and I am worried if I will make it back on that tire or have to buy one on the road.

I loosened the axle nut and pinch bold, pulled the rear tire to the left with a bar clamp to take up all play toward the left and then re tightened everything to see if I could get it more aligned. But it only came in 1/16".

Trimmed to eliminate all the unimportant chatter.

Bar clamp? How about you tighten the axle the correct way? Wrench on each side, tighten to the correct torque value, then tighten the pinch bolt last.

Your alignment is most likely well within specs, but I honestly haven't looked in the FSM to see if that info is listed. It's a trivial amount off, regardless of what you may have accepted on your chain bikes.

So what this comes down to is you spend too much time worrying about things and not enough time riding. You rode to CO on your last trip. CO has twisty, coarse roads and lots of hills. Tire wear will be greater than day rides around FL. What this means is that you can't just measure the tread depth and calculate your remaining tire life. Where you ride, how you ride and the conditions present will impact your tread life.

You simply lack enough data to know what kind of average tire life you can expect from the Super Ten and the Bridgestone tires.

I offer to you that if you regularly got 10k from most rear tires on the VStrom, and you ride in a similar manner on the S10, then you will probably see similar tire life on the S10.

If you didn't go thru enough tires on the VStrom to know what your average tire life was, well you're probably not going to have enough of a base line to know what kind of tread life you will get on the S10 until you gather that data. If you're changing your tires at home, yourself, why worry about it, just pull the tire off and put a new one on for your trip and save the old one for later for day rides and wear it out.

 

[Rasher]

But changing tires 2000 miles from home is a bit of a PIA.

I forget some of you can go this far from home so easily, the 4k+ a tyre lasts me is about three times around my Island, to get 2,000 miles from home I have to ride across at least three other countries :exclaim:

 

[jaeger22]

Eric, thinks for your inputs, A few points.

Bar clamp? How about you tighten the axle the correct way? Wrench on each side, tighten to the correct torque value, then tighten the pinch bolt last.

Yes this is exactly what I did. I just used the clamp to take up any slack in the direction I wanted the tire to go before I did the "correct" procedure. As noted above, very little difference.

So what this comes down to is you spend too much time worrying about things and not enough time riding. You rode to CO on your last trip. CO has twisty, coarse roads and lots of hills. Tire wear will be greater than day rides around FL. What this means is that you can't just measure the tread depth and calculate your remaining tire life. Where you ride, how you ride and the conditions present will impact your tread life.

Well I have averaged 20K miles a year for the last 7 years including C to C and back 3 times. Also trips to Tulsa OK, Dayton OH, and Denver CO, and back from Orlando. And Orlando to Ft.Walton Beach and back 35 times (900 miles or so each trip) Hard to figure out how I can do more but I will try. LOL!
I didn't spend a lot of time in CO, mostly getting there and back. I had two business trips (Tulsa and Albuquerque) with three free days in between so took a long rout to ABQ via CO. Point is it was almost all high speed highway and interstate very much like my last 10K mile Coast to Coast on the Strom. Except about 2000 miles of that trip was two up which should have made more wear on the Strom tire.

You simply lack enough data to know what kind of average tire life you can expect from the Super Ten and the Bridgestone tires.

True and good point but my concern is that it is clearly wearing MUCH faster than any tire I had on the Strom, even given the difference in power and weight.

I offer to you that if you regularly got 10k from most rear tires on the VStrom, and you ride in a similar manner on the S10, then you will probably see similar tire life on the S10.

Yes that is exactly my point and concern. I averaged around 9K on the BW, less on the EXP, and about the same with the old Torrance. I put 92,000 miles on the strom and often had to change early due to an upcoming trip, and twice due to damage. So I went through 13 or 14 rear tires on that bike. I kept detailed records on that bike including initial and intermediate tire tread depth so I could track the rate of wear to help me gauge if I had enough tread for another trip with adequate safety margin.

If you're changing your tires at home, yourself, why worry about it, just pull the tire off and put a new one on for your trip and save the old one for later for day rides and wear it out.

Yes exactly what I do but I expect to head out for the far West in June and expect to put 8 to 9K miles during that trip. I would love to be able to make it on a single tire.
I think I will try the new Anakee 3 to see if I can get more miles out of that.

Mark,

Your bike may (or may not) be out of acceptable alignment - if a few pounds extra in one saddlebag corrects any pull, I vote that it is probably within tolerances - but I think you're tiling at windmills to think this slight alignment issue is the cause of your tire wear variances. You've already identified the most likely factors for the difference (100 extra lbs and 50% more power), but in addition, there are just so many variables involved in tire mileage, I don't think you have enough data to draw any firm conclusions.

I'd go back to your original plan... ::021::

Yes you guys are probably right. Maybe there is just nothing that can be done about it except plan to change tires more often than I expected and ::001::
I have been looking at the parts break out and it looks like the spacer idea could cause problems with the bearing and seal alignment so that does not look to be a good rout.
Thanks for all the good thoughts.
John

 

[markjenn]

If tire mileage is a concern, I've always found Metezler Tourance (not EXP's, don't know about the new Next model) to be about as good as it gets. Many are reporting 10K+ out of a Tourance rear on the S10. Stick is pretty good too and off-road, they're no worse than any other 90-10 dual-sport tire. Unfortunately, they're a bit pricey.

- Mark

 

[snakebitten]

I forget some of you can go this far from home so easily, the 4k+ a tyre lasts me is about three times around my Island, to get 2,000 miles from home I have to ride across at least three other countries :exclaim:

So true. I can leave the house, pick a highway to jump on, and then wick it up to 80-85 mph and ride for a 12 hour ride day. And still be in Texas!

Tires are truly consumables in this household. Car, truck, bike.....doesn't matter. Just going to 10 football games per year can takes us nearly around the world in miles. Everything is a long haul around here.

As far as wheel alignment goes though, I recently installed a throttle lock. As a result, I can state with confidence that my S10 tracks straight with no hands. If I were the op, even if it isn't alarming, I would still investigate why his doesn't.

 

[EricV]

Great response John. ::008::

Ok, so based upon your experience with the Strom, you're reasonably consistent for rear tire wear. That's a good thing. Please do try and get out more though. Take an extra Monday or Friday off now and then. ;D

Typically Bridgestones are not the greatest wearing tires, but some do exceed 10k for their riding style. I had the EXPs on my as delivered and got 6200 from them, but did pull them early because the wear patterns were awful and I did not like the wet traction. Probably could have gotten another 2k if I had wanted to live with it.

There are a couple of options for you on the longer trip. Michelin PR3 Trails will certainly last for the entire trip. It's a street tire though, so no dual use potential. Not knowing your plans, that may or may not be an issue for you.

Anakee IIs have a pretty good rep for long wear too, and are still more of an 80/20 tire.

I've had really good results with Heidenau K60s, getting a pretty consistent 12k from the rears. I did have one of my three rears wear out faster, at 10k or so due to running at aggressive speeds in high heat out on the coarse roads of NV. 2000 miles at 3mm of tread right at the start of the tire's life. That wear was not indicative of the rest of the tire's life though, as it was more extreme than my normal riding style. (special event)

I'm sorry I can't offer a comparison on the alignment issue, but if you are not seeing a specifically odd tread wear pattern, I really don't feel this is an issue for tread wear on your bike.

Tough call on whether to leave the current tire on or swap as your trip will probably come close to using the tire up. If you're mostly doing lower speed roads and taking it easy, you're probably fine. If you like to wick it up a bit and are doing lots of twisty fun roads, probably cutting it too close to leave the current tire on. If you will be doing a lot of high speed slab, again, probably cutting it too close with the current tire.

None of us like to take a tire off early, or get stuck buying one on the road. That you're doing your own tire changes makes it a bit easier though.

Hope that helps

 

[jaeger22]

Thanks for the great replies guys!

If tire mileage is a concern, I've always found Metezler Tourance (not EXP's, don't know about the new Next model) to be about as good as it gets. Many are reporting 10K+ out of a Tourance rear on the S10. Stick is pretty good too and off-road, they're no worse than any other 90-10 dual-sport tire. Unfortunately, they're a bit pricey.

- Mark

Mark, agree I had good experience with the non-EXP's. I had one of the early EXP's and it when away faster than anything else I tried. They may have better rubber now as the one that came on my S10 went 5900 before I changed it to a BW before the last trip and it still had some useful life. The only thing I didn't like about the old Tourance was the "pricey" part. BW's gave almost the mileage and a lot cheaper.

So true. I can leave the house, pick a highway to jump on, and then wick it up to 80-85 mph and ride for a 12 hour ride day. And still be in Texas!

LOL, so true Snakebitten! I can almost never get across Texas in a single day! Every other day of these trips I go through 2 or 3 or even 4 states but not Texas! But at least you guys have some of the fastest speed limits so it is a good place to spend time making miles.

Eric, thanks for the tire info. Been thinking about K60's but was thinking they were a bit dirt biased for my 95% road work. Still if they can go 12K miles. . . Wow!
Also the PR3 do seem like a good option. Just been thinking about the Anakee 3 because they claim to have a duel compound that should give significantly longer life than the old ones. But they are too new for many to have worn one out to see. They are reasonably priced.

Tough call on whether to leave the current tire on or swap as your trip will probably come close to using the tire up. If you're mostly doing lower speed roads and taking it easy, you're probably fine. If you like to wick it up a bit and are doing lots of twisty fun roads, probably cutting it too close to leave the current tire on. If you will be doing a lot of high speed slab, again, probably cutting it too close with the current tire.

Yes it is close and I don't have a new tire in my stock. It would be tight to order one and get it installed before Friday night so my plan is to baby it on the way to Tulsa and then make a call for the trip home. It it looks too risky, I will go to one of the dealers in Tulsa, and bend over. :
I do plan to keep thinking about and experimenting with this alignment/pull issue but will not let it stop me from ::001::

 

[Obrianmcc]

Obrianmcc. as for:That would be a good thing if we had anything symmetrical to measure from but if we do, I can find it. Our swing arms are recessed on the left side to make room for the drive shaft. On most bikes that is a good way to measure but I am thinking the most accurate is to measure where the tire is pointing because that is all the really maters in the end.


It is offset, but plenty visible enough to take a measurement.

Unless I misread your process.....you used the front axel to measure from. This I would never do as you have no means to guarantee that your front axel is perpendicular to the intended rear axel plane......what if the problem lies with the front wheel or forks and your chasing a problem at the wrong end of the bike due to a bad measurement?

 

[jaeger22]

Unless I misread your process.....you used the front axel to measure from. This I would never do as you have no means to guarantee that your front axel is perpendicular to the intended rear axel plane......what if the problem lies with the front wheel or forks and your chasing a problem at the wrong end of the bike due to a bad measurement?

No not the axle, the front wheel. But I take your point that is COULD be something in the front end. But unless the bike has been wrecked, it seem much more unlikely to me but it is possible. Also the front wheel is self centering and I am thinking that the important part is that the rear wheel point directly inline with the front.
The process is, with the bike on the center stand, to carefully align the front wheel to the center of the rear tire by sighting along the edges of the front tire until you see an equal amount of the rear tire on both sides. Make sure it doesn't move and check often.
Then, a) sight method, place a ruler on edge against the front of the front wheel so that you can see it from the rear. Sight along the sides of the rear tire and observe were the line of sight formed by the front and back edges of the rear tire, intersects the ruler. When the rear wheel is aligned with the front, the offset is equal on both sides.
b) string method, tape the center of a long string to the rear tire and pull up past the front tire. Attach the two ends of the string to a board or stick at points that are the same distance apart as the tire is wide. Pull tight and adjust side to side until the string just touches the front of the rear tire. Then you can directly measure the offset from the string to the sides of the front tire.
Either way works. The sighting method is faster and the difference is fairly clear but the string method allows more precise measurements. I used both several times and always got the same answer.
If any of you have the time and interest to try this, I would love to know what you find.
John

 

[jonkertb]

something in me says, if the bike steers to one side....you might check to see if the forks are tweeked??? maybe loosen the pinch bolts on the triple tree and compress the forks a time or two and re tighten??
tom

 

[roy]

You can measure it by simply pulling a string line (weed eater line works good in a bright color) wrap it around back tire tape it fixed then pull it forward lining it up with the edge of rear tire. Look down it to keep it lined up on edges of rear tire. Measure distand to edge of front tire repeat on other side. It helps to have a extra person to eyeball the exact point when line touches edge of rear tire. Its not laser exact but good enough. Make sure you correctly torque rear wheel in sequence as mentioned above.

Of course place the bike on the centerstand to perform this. Just get the steering as close to center as possible that will be good enough.

 

[Don in Lodi]

Just for pure mileage, is everybody here against the ME880? I ran the reinforced 880 on my 800# Royal Star to a pretty easy 15,000 miles a couple times. After playing around with a couple more tire designs, I may very well look seriously in trying the 880 on this machine too... LOL, provided there's a correct size.
::021::

 

[EricV]

Just for pure mileage, is everybody here against the ME880? I ran the reinforced 880 on my 800# Royal Star to a pretty easy 15,000 miles a couple times. After playing around with a couple more tire designs, I may very well look seriously in trying the 880 on this machine too... LOL, provided there's a correct size.
::021::

Sort of OT for this thread. Metzler offers a 140/80-17 in R & Bias, but it's a front tire. They also offer a 160/70-17 rear in R & Bias, but no 150/70-17 in the Me880. The correct front size is available.

My experience on the FJR was that the Radial version Me880 didn't last any longer than other good Sport-Touring rubber, for me, (10k), but that the front wore a flat spot down the center and horrible on the sides and was shot at the same time as the rear. Wet traction was reduced as well, even when new. I have heard, and would expect, the Bias to last longer, but are even worse in the wet.

 

[Don in Lodi]

Sort of OT for this thread.

Yeah, I know. It kinda morphed into another blah-blah-blah on this tire vs that tire in my mind.
I'm not quite picturing in my mind how alignment/tracking can cause accelerated wear on a bike. Once rolling, both tires are pointed in the same direction, nothing is scrubbing. Alignment on a chain drive was strictly for chain and gear wear as far as I knew. Then the big belt drives came along and alignment became even more critical. And none of those was to the front wheel. Alignment shouldn't cause a drift either, again, everything is pointed in the same direction when rolling. Under load, a lot of load, the dynamics may change some, the mythical ring and pinion gear climb, not sure if we have enough torque for that, we may. And maybe under power the rear tire might feel like it's wanting to squirt out from under the bike in and odd direction, but that takes some serious off-set, like swing arm bearings.
I'm in the front end camp I think. Dented steering head races, fork tubes, maybe even a hung up caliper, though that would show up way sooner. The angle I'm picturing to cause drift is automotive terminology, Caster. That would be rake and trail on a bike, right? If the forks aren't exactly parallel wouldn't that change the 'caster' and cause the tubes to not want to stay side by side?
Sorry guys, I just ride. If a tire got more miles on a previous bike, it would fall into the "Nature of the Beast" category for me, whether it's moped or crotch rocket.
Oh, and I can throttle lock and put on a pair of gloves at 70...

 

[markjenn]

I'm not quite picturing in my mind how alignment/tracking can cause accelerated wear on a bike. Once rolling, both tires are pointed in the same direction, nothing is scrubbing.

Not having the front and rear tires on the same alignment does cause some "scrubbing" although I agree that it would have to be a major mis-alignment to affect tire life. Any mis-alignment will cause the bike to want to continually turn and to counter this and make the bike go straight, the rider has to feed in some opposite bar pressure to counter the turn. To a lesser degree, its identical to the cross-control inputs you see in a power-slide and does cause the tires to slighlty scrub sideways across the road.

- Mark