No start after reassembly(Valve replacement and reshim)

[Tenforeplay]

The pickup rotor can only go onto the crankshaft one way referring to the pickup rotor section. Tdc is determined by the cam position as in the pics. I am thinking it is wasted spark and not sure how fueling works but imagine similar if it is driven off the pickup rotor. So tdc is only dictated by the cam position. You cannot be out 360. And this info is worth what you paid for it.

 

[RonTV]

I don't think it's possible to be 180 degrees out. As long as you turn the engine to the correct mark, install the cams to the correct mark it should be good to go. I had this same concern some 40yrs back on old Kawasaki KZ1000 ect.

 

[Tenforeplay]

Maybe check your pickup sensor and all that goes with it.

 

[RCinNC]

This may be of no help, but I found this animation some time ago on Youtube, and it might come in handy at visualizing what the valve positions are at TDC.

And, if not...well, it's still a cool animation.

 

[labradorian70]

The pickup rotor can only go onto the crankshaft one way referring to the pickup rotor section. Tdc is determined by the cam position as in the pics. I am thinking it is wasted spark and not sure how fueling works but imagine similar if it is driven off the pickup rotor. So tdc is only dictated by the cam position. You cannot be out 360. And this info is worth what you paid for it.

I don't think it's possible to be 180 degrees out. As long as you turn the engine to the correct mark, install the cams to the correct mark it should be good to go. I had this same concern some 40yrs back on old Kawasaki KZ1000 ect.

I guess what i mean is the spark plug fires at every 720 deg rotation of the crank. and i assume that is determined by the crankshaft position sensor? so in my mind you can be out 360. but my mind is not always right either lol

that is a cool video. RCinNC

 

[mybackhurts]

For what it worth I just seen a bunch of vids of guys being 180 out in different ways on muiltiple distributor big blocks in a row lol. Funny from the couch. Pitfa irl.

 

[labradorian70]

The pickup rotor can only go onto the crankshaft one way referring to the pickup rotor section. Tdc is determined by the cam position as in the pics. I am thinking it is wasted spark and not sure how fueling works but imagine similar if it is driven off the pickup rotor. So tdc is only dictated by the cam position. You cannot be out 360. And this info is worth what you paid for it.

Update.

I never caught this the first time i read it.... but When you say "wasted spark" , do you mean it fires on both compression and exhaust stroke?
Very good info but can anyone confirm if this is the case Or not.
If not...how do you tell when you are on the compression stroke on the crank shaft if it fires every 720 degrees. If I were to be 360 out...... and I just simply swapped cyl1 and cyl2 spark plug coil plugs...wouldn't that tell me anything.

My update is that I removed the cams again and rotated the crank 360 retimed and still won't fire.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Thread being moved to Power & Exhaust in 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 .....

 

[WJBertrand]

Not sure why the Super Ténéré, or any other bike with COP ignition would have a waste spark. Usually this was done when cylinders share a single coil and the cylinders fire 180° from one another.

 

[scott123007]

Put it back together the way you have it and either find a downhill or a tow. That is the only way to turn that son of a bitch over fast enough and long enough without any draw on the battery to know if you really have a problem. I had a "hard start" one time that took a tow to resolve.

 

[Tenforeplay]

Update.

I never caught this the first time i read it.... but When you say "wasted spark" , do you mean it fires on both compression and exhaust stroke?
Very good info but can anyone confirm if this is the case Or not.
If not...how do you tell when you are on the compression stroke on the crank shaft if it fires every 720 degrees. If I were to be 360 out...... and I just simply swapped cyl1 and cyl2 spark plug coil plugs...wouldn't that tell me anything.

My update is that I removed the cams again and rotated the crank 360 retimed and still won't fire.

Maybe this will help explain some things.

https://www.diyautotune.com/news/tuning-tips/the-beauty-of-crank-fired-wasted-spark-ignition/

Again, the cam position determines tdc.

 

[Tenforeplay]

Put it back together the way you have it and either find a downhill or a tow. That is the only way to turn that son of a bitch over fast enough and long enough without any draw on the battery to know if you really have a problem. I had a "hard start" one time that took a tow to resolve.

Lol. That's it! Drag that mofo. Just don't do it in first gear

 

[Tenforeplay]

As a backup to your compression test phenomenon you could perform a leak down test.

 

[labradorian70]

Not sure why the Super Ténéré, or any other bike with COP ignition would have a waste spark. Usually this was done when cylinders share a single coil and the cylinders fire 180° from one another.

Put it back together the way you have it and either find a downhill or a tow. That is the only way to turn that son of a bitch over fast enough and long enough without any draw on the battery to know if you really have a problem. I had a "hard start" one time that took a tow to resolve.

I just might have to do this. thanks

Maybe this will help explain some things.

https://www.diyautotune.com/news/tuning-tips/the-beauty-of-crank-fired-wasted-spark-ignition/

Again, the cam position determines tdc.

Thanks for the link. It all makes sense, But does the ST have a wasted spark setup? Thats the piece of info im digging for. Im going to go out on a limb here and say that because the ST has a crank sensor, it will trigger spark on every rotation. spark is Crank triggered and not cam triggered. !! Did i just have an epiphany lol

Lol. That's it! Drag that mofo. Just don't do it in first gear

noted, !! no first gear.

As a backup to your compression test phenomenon you could perform a leak down test.

I don't have a leak down kit , ordering one now

 

[Bigguy136]

Not sure if helpful but here goes...
Going back in time, bikes always had a wasted spark. Then mid 90s, cam sensors started to appear and mid/late 2000s, the cam sensor went away. These time frames were for the type of motors/ brands I was working on and my old man memory.
My understanding of no cam sensor is the ECU can figure if TDC is for compression stroke or overlap stroke by the resistance in the effort to fire a spark plug.
End of the day, you need fuel, spark and compression. If your cams are timed for TDC, you are good to go for cam timing.
Can I assume you confirmed TDC on #1 cylinder with a screwdriver down spark plug hole matches where your timing mark is on end of crank?

 

[labradorian70]

Not sure if helpful but here goes...
Going back in time, bikes always had a wasted spark. Then mid 90s, cam sensors started to appear and mid/late 2000s, the cam sensor went away. These time frames were for the type of motors/ brands I was working on and my old man memory.
My understanding of no cam sensor is the ECU can figure if TDC is for compression stroke or overlap stroke by the resistance in the effort to fire a spark plug.
End of the day, you need fuel, spark and compression. If your cams are timed for TDC, you are good to go for cam timing.
Can I assume you confirmed TDC on #1 cylinder with a screwdriver down spark plug hole matches where your timing mark is on end of crank?

good info. i actually used a endoscope with a camera bluetooth to my phone so i could watch the piston while turning the crank. and yes it is TDC(#1) when the T mark on the crank is lined up where i should be.

 

[Bigguy136]

Then if bike was running prior, cams are timed correctly, you need to find the wire connector that is not fully seated or mixed up with other connector. I believe there are a few connectors that plug into each other.

 

[labradorian70]

Then if bike was running prior, cams are timed correctly, you need to find the wire connector that is not fully seated or mixed up with other connector. I believe there are a few connectors that plug into each other.

the only two connectors that are interchange are fuel injectors with each other. and there is one connector on the throttle body that is the same as the spark plug coils.

i have the air box off, im assumeing if will run with the air box connector disconnected?

To give you a summary what happened, I stopped for a break, and when i hit the start button to restart, heard a clunk and it stopped cranking, eventually discovered the chain tensioner failed the chain jumped timing. even though i spun all the valves to see if any were bent they were ok, i still replaced them anyways. shimmed them etc. no damage to pistons, I mean it ran great prior to the chain tensioner fail. I will be doing a leak down test here soon.

 

[Bigguy136]

the only two connectors that are interchange are fuel injectors with each other. and there is one connector on the throttle body that is the same as the spark plug coils.

i have the air box off, im assumeing if will run with the air box connector disconnected?

To give you a summary what happened, I stopped for a break, and when i hit the start button to restart, heard a clunk and it stopped cranking, eventually discovered the chain tensioner failed the chain jumped timing. even though i spun all the valves to see if any were bent they were ok, i still replaced them anyways. shimmed them etc. no damage to pistons, I mean it ran great prior to the chain tensioner fail. I will be doing a leak down test here soon.

When your cam chain jumped sprocket, was it the crank sprocket and did it damage the crank sensor? Not sure if it could be damaged. Go to the basics of crank it over without spark plugs. Watch for spark and finger over spark plug hole. Compression blowing when it sparks?

 

[WJBertrand]

Not sure if helpful but here goes...
Going back in time, bikes always had a wasted spark. Then mid 90s, cam sensors started to appear and mid/late 2000s, the cam sensor went away. These time frames were for the type of motors/ brands I was working on and my old man memory.
My understanding of no cam sensor is the ECU can figure if TDC is for compression stroke or overlap stroke by the resistance in the effort to fire a spark plug.
End of the day, you need fuel, spark and compression. If your cams are timed for TDC, you are good to go for cam timing.
Can I assume you confirmed TDC on #1 cylinder with a screwdriver down spark plug hole matches where your timing mark is on end of crank?

My ST1300 Honda had a cam position sensor and a wasted spark ignition system. The reason wasn’t due to the presence or absence of a cam position sensor, but rather because there were only 2 coils shared over four cylinders. Each coil fired every crank rotation but the cylinders sharing that coil fired alternately.