Knock sensor or lack thereof

b3nji

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There is fresh talk over at advrider about the lack of a knock sensor on the S10. This is a big concern for me as I intend to ride in parts of South America where the octane rating is much lower than the recommended. I wouldn't call this a deal breaker but I'm perplexed as to why Yamaha wouldn't include a knock sensor considering they are marketing this bike as a round-the-world motorcycle.

Can anyone with more knowledge about this elaborate on the subject of knock sensors and what can be done to counter the lack of it?
 

TEN YC

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I found this through a search http://www.xtz750.com/index.php/super-tenere-owners-forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4184#p33451 http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13526856&postcount=3365


"I asked Yamaha about this directly.

They said that I shouldnt worry about it. We ran the bikes on really awful fuel in Morocco and Yamaha said that the bikes could even run on very poor quality *leaded* fuel without problem. (Even the Cat can take it allegedly)

On low quality gasoline the advice was to not labour the engine by riding at too low revs for long periods. As long as you rode the bikes reasonably hard there should be no issues.

There is a knock sensor fitted on these bikes which in theory should alter the ignition timing when required and prevent detonation but it is always a good idea to keep the revs up on dodgy fuel.

With Yamaha paying for the fuel at fuel stops, we never purchased Super Unleaded even when it was available, so this should indicate something."
 

TEN YC

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btw, I cannot garauntee the validity of "Spike's" statement above, but he apparently has some credibility. (A Yamaha "ride for life" guy or whatever that means)
 

TEN YC

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Well your guess is as good as mine as to who to believe on this. Greg does seem very knowledgeable.

There are really 2 separate questions here though. First, of course, is whether or not it has the knock sensor, but the second question is simply, does this bike need a knock sensor to mitigate the possible issues with poor quality fuel. If it definitely does not have the sensor, perhaps Yamaha felt the sensor was unnecessary.

Wish I knew more about the issue to help. Good luck
 

fredz43

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I was reading that thread on adv also and I along with others looked thru the service manual and there is no evidence of a knock sensor in the first edition 2010 models. It will be interesting when we get our 2012 models what octane is recommended and if any provisions for running lower octane via a knock sensor is included in the later model.
 

2XADV

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If the engine control module is set-up with comprehensive fuel and O2 sensor tables it is possible to not use Knock sensors. With noisier internal components engines it is somethimes difficult to get the knock sensors working well without a lot of "false" knock detections resulting in inefficient retarded ignition timing. Maybe the cam chain(noisy on the S10 engine) and the 270 degree set-up have this internal noise caused issue. If the pre-catalytic convertor O2 exhaust sensors are monitored and interpreted correctly, the level of how "rich" the mixture is can be monitored to the same result. If too lean the engine can ping or knock but the O2 sensor will see this and richen the mixture. If too rich it will lean it out a bit. By watching the mixture/O2 levels and comparing to RPM, throttle position (= load), etc. knocking/pinging can be predicted without a "microphone" sensor.
This O2 method controlling mixture under load (that becomes knock control) can be actually better than what the knock sensor does. This is because the knock sensor method usually immediately retards the spark and reduces efficiency of the burn and the bike also runs lower power and hotter with a retarded spark.

Just my .02.
 

markjenn

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I'll make the same statement here that I made on advrider.... after looking at every piece of hard information (service manual, owner's manual, parts catalog, brochures, Yamaha web site, etc.), I can find nothing that would indicate the bike has a knock sensor.

As to the idea that the bike is just generally so good that it can run on anything -- despite Yamaha saying it needs premium -- color me skeptical. I don't think Yamaha would specify premium if the bike had adequate knock margins for its anticipated operating envelope with regular gas.

I'm not aware of any way to specifically detect knock without a knock sensor. Doesn't mean it isn't possible, but I'm somewhat skeptical of this too.

It is important to note that engine knock is not something that happens all the time when you burn sub-standard fuel. Engine knock typically occurs only in "worst case" conditions - big throttle openings, heavy loads, low RPM, and high ambient temps. Most of the time - especially with big/powerful bikes that typically use only a tiny fraction of their available power - the engine doesn't need all the octane you feed it. It's there so the engine doesn't knock in worst-case conditions.

Also, due to tolerances and sample-to-sample variation, engines vary tremendously in their propensity to knock. As engines age they tend to wear, retain carbon deposits in the combustion chamber (which raises compression ratio), and just generally lose tune. This tends to increase octane appetite as the machine ages.

So engine knock is a highly variable thing, not cut and dried at all. Its quite possible to use regular in a vehicle that specs premium and never have any issue with knock. It's also quite possible to have an engine that knocks even when running the specified fuel.

If you know what engine knock sounds like, it's usually possible to "ride around" engine knock by going slower and using more RPM and less throttle. And you can pack octane booster, although I've personally no experience with how or whether it works. Cheap skates can use regular and if they restrict their throttle to 75% or so, never have any issue with knock. But it's not much fun buying a fast/powerful bike to go slow and save a few pennies a gallon at the gas pump.

All this being said, I do think the GS has an advantage in this area if you're talking about third-world touring. But if I were doing this sort of touring, I wouldn't get a S10 to begin with - I'd get a KLR or DL650. For my riding (adv riding in the forest roads out W), I'm sure I'll occasionally refuel at stations without premium and unless the bike is a bad knocker (which I don't expect), I'll just monitor how it runs on regular and adjust my driving habits a bit. No big deal.

- Mark
 

ptfjjj

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When I bought my Concours in 2006, the dealer said that it was imperative that I only burn premium fuel in it. I later ran into the problem of not always being able to find premium, so I was stuck with only regular grade, but the bike performed the same with it. It actually got better gas mileage with regular grade.
 

fredz43

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ptfjjj said:
When I bought my Concours in 2006, the dealer said that it was imperative that I only burn premium fuel in it. I later ran into the problem of not always being able to find premium, so I was stuck with only regular grade, but the bike performed the same with it. It actually got better gas mileage with regular grade.
What does the Concours owner's manual specify? I know of a dealer service advisor that tells all new owners to always run premium in anything they buy and that is totally bogus information.
 

ptfjjj

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I sold the bike, so I don't have the owner's manual, but I can't recall if I even tried to look that up. It probably was just generic BS.
 

HoebSTer

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i am sure the emissions dept here in the states will go and screw with something on this bike. When the Yamaha rep mentioned they are getting everything set for the emissions, I chuckled and said, sure there goes our HP like it always does compared to the Europeans. If it is 108hp there, it will be something like 95 here.
 

b3nji

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2XADV said:
If the engine control module is set-up with comprehensive fuel and O2 sensor tables it is possible to not use Knock sensors. ...
As much as I was hoping that 2XADV was right about the possibility of the S10 not needing a knock sensor, I'm afraid that this simply is not the case. One of the members at advrider confirmed that running low octane fuel in Mexico resulted in knocking on his S10.

From advrider:
Supa12 Pilot: One time I had to fill up with the 87 and did not think to add octane booster and that crap made my engine knock so hard it nearly knocked me off my bike!
b3nji: Was this on the S10??
Supa12 Pilot Yep, S10 and low grade fuel, but it didn't blow up
 

markjenn

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b3nji said:
From advrider:
Supa12 Pilot: One time I had to fill up with the 87 and did not think to add octane booster and that crap made my engine knock so hard it nearly knocked me off my bike!
The way this is described makes me doubt the veracity of this account. Bad engine knock can be loud, but "knocking me off the bike" doesn't sound authentic. Without a bike around to give us any hard information, a lot of hearsay and chicken little stories are rushing into the vacuum.

- Mark
 

TEN YC

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b3nji said:
As much as I was hoping that 2XADV was right about the possibility of the S10 not needing a knock sensor, I'm afraid that this simply is not the case. One of the members at advrider confirmed that running low octane fuel in Mexico resulted in knocking on his S10.

From advrider:
Supa12 Pilot: One time I had to fill up with the 87 and did not think to add octane booster and that crap made my engine knock so hard it nearly knocked me off my bike!
b3nji: Was this on the S10??
Supa12 Pilot Yep, S10 and low grade fuel, but it didn't blow up


I agree with Mark. You really shouldn't take anecdotal evidence you read on the internet too seriously. People say all sorts of crazy shit. Don't get too concerned about it
 

markjenn

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fredz43 said:
What does the Concours owner's manual specify?
Pretty sure the Concours specs premium. Dunno if it is recommended or required. The S10 OM says "Premium Fuel Only".

Sometimes you'll see language like"Premium recommended but regular can be used with less performance". That's usually a sign that the engine has knock sensors or some kind of adapative tuning sensitive to knock.

- Mark
 

toompine

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Yamaha is pretty smart and they are not going to engineer a motorcycle that is intended to see many places with "questionable" fuel. If it needed a knock sensor that would have included it
 

Jakeboy

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My DL 1000 ran fine on 87 octane fuel (factory spec), but better on 89 (mileage-wise). I've never experienced engine knock on the DL with the 87 fuel. I did keep the rpm's up on my DL, so that may be why I never noticed a problem with the "cheap stuff". The DL runs an 11.3 to 1 compression ratio, while the S10 specs say it's ratio is 11.0 to 1. I believe the Suzuki is in a higher state of tune than the S10. Equivalent HP and torque in a smaller displacement engine.

Just for kicks, I checked the 2010 BMW 1200 specs. It runs a 12.0 to 1 compression ratio. The KTM Adventure runs 11.5 to 1. The new Triumph Tiger 800 XC runs 12.0 to 1.

Not being privy to the exact nature of the fuel mapping, ignition timing curves, test stand data and a thousand other things, it's impossible to speculate as to whether this engine needs a knock sensor. I'm betting the Yamaha engineers would have put one on if they thought it needed one, and they know where some of these bikes are going to end up and what they may have to drink to get there.

What kind of crap fuel can this thing run without causing problems? Who knows? I do plan on test running it with 87 octane fuel, once I get it broken in.

Sounds to me like the guy that was getting 'knocked around by engine knock', is full of steaming, brown stuff. My guess is he topped off his tank with diesel fuel by mistake.
 
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