Iron in oil - any suggestions?

[parabomber]

Just got my 2nd Blackstone back and got some unfortunate info:

"
Iron is noticeably higher than we found in the first sample. We weren't sure how many miles the
previous sample was run, so maybe a longer interval is behind the increase, but that doesn't entirely explain
iron -- it's high even when we factor in the 3,500-mile run. If the engine is run hard excess iron may prove to
be a normal find, but we could also be looking at excess wear at steel parts like cylinders, shafts, and valve
train parts. The other metals look fine, so steel wear is the only item on our watchlist at present. The thin
viscosity isn’t cautionary. Repeat 3,500 mi."




I have a borescope I can use tomorrow, and I utterly failed at opening the oil filter from the most recent change so waiting on a tool to come to finish that. Any suggestions on things to check on other than the usual?

It's a 2014 that I bought used with 8k on it; this is my 3rd oil change for it, the first one with a normal interval (I changed it once when I got it, and another time after that because I didn't like how the shifting felt).

 

[RCinNC]

I take it you had a sample drawn right when you bought the bike, and now you've put 3500 miles on it and took another sample? If the iron increased markedly between the two samples in such a short span of miles, my first thought might be sample contamination. Before I leapt to any conclusions, I might pay the 35 bucks (or whatever Blackstone charges) and take another sample now, and see if it confirms the amount of iron. What was the difference between the first and second sample? Was the first also outside the averages?

I think you'd have to absolutely beat the hell out of a bike to the point you had something like excessive cylinder wall wear within 11,564 miles. Was the previous owner using it to haul a haywagon?

Just as a comparison, I had my oil analyzed by Blackstone at 89,000 miles, and my iron was at 15.

 

[parabomber]

I take it you had a sample drawn right when you bought the bike, and now you've put 3500 miles on it and took another sample? If the iron increased markedly between the two samples in such a short span of miles, my first thought might be sample contamination. Before I leapt to any conclusions, I might pay the 35 bucks (or whatever Blackstone charges) and take another sample now, and see if it confirms the amount of iron. What was the difference between the first and second sample? Was the first also outside the averages?

I think you'd have to absolutely beat the hell out of a bike to the point you had something like excessive cylinder wall wear within 11,564 miles. Was the previous owner using it to haul a haywagon?

Just as a comparison, I had my oil analyzed by Blackstone at 89,000 miles, and my iron was at 15.

I am pretty confident I got the sample cleanly, stuck the container into the oil pouring out about midway through the oil change. I could pull another sample right now, but it likely wouldn't have much of anything in it yet until I get some more miles down.

The data from the first sample is in the 3rd column of the blackstone image - it was 16 when I got the bike, which is below the average (middle column) of 26.

 

[gv550]

Oil viscosity is low too, that shouldn't happen in 3500 miles either. What oil type and viscosity are you using?

 

[parabomber]

Trying to figure out what oil was in it for sure, but pretty confident it was Yamalube synthetic 10w40. I remember when I first changed it, not liking how the shifting was and changing it again, but I don't recall which oil it was I didn't like. I have some Motul 7100 rT 10W-50 I meant to put in it at some point, I suppose I could swap to that and see if it improves things, but I think Yamalube 10W40 synth is the manufacturer recommended.

 

[parabomber]

Oil viscosity is low too, that shouldn't happen in 3500 miles either. What oil type and viscosity are you using?

Just double checked, and I have an order for Yamalube 15W50 Synth followed by Yamalube 10W40 Synth, so likely I put the 15W50 in, didn't like it, and switched to 10W40 right when I got the bike. Most likely this sample was of 10W40; either way it was most likely Yamalube synthetic within range for the bike. Blackstone didn't seem too concerned with the viscosity.

 

[MattR]

Just got my 2nd Blackstone back and got some unfortunate info:

"
Iron is noticeably higher than we found in the first sample. We weren't sure how many miles the
previous sample was run, so maybe a longer interval is behind the increase, but that doesn't entirely explain
iron -- it's high even when we factor in the 3,500-mile run. If the engine is run hard excess iron may prove to
be a normal find, but we could also be looking at excess wear at steel parts like cylinders, shafts, and valve
train parts. The other metals look fine, so steel wear is the only item on our watchlist at present. The thin
viscosity isn’t cautionary. Repeat 3,500 mi."

View attachment 102564


I have a borescope I can use tomorrow, and I utterly failed at opening the oil filter from the most recent change so waiting on a tool to come to finish that. Any suggestions on things to check on other than the usual?

It's a 2014 that I bought used with 8k on it; this is my 3rd oil change for it, the first one with a normal interval (I changed it once when I got it, and another time after that because I didn't like how the shifting felt).

If you have an old hard drive from a computer that you don’t want, take it apart. Inside are two horseshoe shaped magnets. These are very powerful rare earth magnets. Put them on the end of your oil filter. They will pull ferrous fragments to the end of the filter and make it obvious when you open up the filter how big the problem is. Keep the magnets away from abs components though.


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[parabomber]

Well, I got the oil filter apart. I did a sloppy job, so its possible some fragments are from the oil filter metal, but it seems unlikely all of it is (I only got some metal dust on the top corner of the filter with a screwdriver).

I guess I'll need to open up the top end and pray its something easy to spot in the valvetrain, and scope the cylinders. If it's neither of those I'm not sure what I'll do, I wonder how much I can get selling it to someone who has the time and space to solve this mystery. 11k seems awful young to have this, I wonder if the previous owner had an idea this had happened when they sold it.

 

[WJBertrand]

Are those bits you can see magnetic?


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[parabomber]

Are those bits you can see magnetic?


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Some of the shiny pieces are non-magnetic, some are.

 

[Little Joe]

Check your air filter and air box , make sure air box is sealing correctly.

This engine is still breaking in as well

From Blackstone testing I have done , a15W 40-50 is better at preventing viscosity breakdown form oil shear at bevel drive.

Unless your cold weather starts require 10w , don’t use it. IMO or halve your interval .


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[parabomber]

Hey all, reviving my old thread here to update the situation and maybe get some hints on best next steps.

I didn't ride much last year as I got a new truck and was too fat for my riding gear. I put about 500 miles total since I last changed the oil, and decided to swap it since it's been a year and I lost weight.

I didn't warm it up too long before changing it (just let coolant get to 140), but the output wasn't re-assuring:





I put a magnet on the filter during warmup, and then when I finished the oil change, I cut it open. Strangely, it seemed pretty clean. There were a couple small black specks that were magnetic but not a ton.

I'm thinking I'll enjoy the summer more if I just rent a garage for a weekend and tear it down; check under the valve cover, check the cam chain, clutch, etc... I did borescope through the oil drain holes and was able to inspect the transmission, which seemed to have all its teeth and look fine.

Any suggestions on what to look for? Any tips on this sort of thing? I'm a longtime shadetree but have never gone this far on a teardown. I presume I'll want to get valve cover gasket, side cover gaskets... anything I'm forgetting?

 

[Tenman]

Compression test and leak down test

 

[Tenforeplay]

looking at the timeline of your oil changes, mileage doesn’t seem to be an issue.
I talked to a ford mechanic one time about oil changes, he said the recommendation for yearly or mileage was because when oil is used it starts to degrade, oxidize, or whatever you want to call it, irrespective of mileage. Looks like you have a couple years on the one oil change, how much time on the one before that? Even if that is not the cause, you’ve something that is coming apart.

 

[RCinNC]

Before you start tearing things apart, why not do another analysis and find out what sort of material all those particles are? Blackstone can tell you what kinds of metal are there, which might help shed some light on which parts of the engine are shedding it. Maybe it'll save you some time if you know what part of the engine might be causing this, and address it directly.

 

[parabomber]

Before you start tearing things apart, why not do another analysis and find out what sort of material all those particles are? Blackstone can tell you what kinds of metal are there, which might help shed some light on which parts of the engine are shedding it. Maybe it'll save you some time if you know what part of the engine might be causing this, and address it directly.

Thanks, not a bad thought. I unfortunately did not capture oil from this change, as it was only a 500 mi change and I didn't expect so much crap. The previous change I did get a Blackstone, which showed high iron but not other metals, which might hint that it's not a bearing. Taking off the valve cover and side covers to get a gander doesn't seem too terrible, although I'll be at a loss if I did so and nothing was clearly failing like a cam journal or something. I almost wonder if the clutch isn't coming apart? But I feel like I'd notice that.

I could ride it another 500, change again and get that tested, but I'm frankly worried about whatever is coming apart finally causing catastrophic damage.

 

[RCinNC]

I'm not sure what I'd do in your position. Blackstone's report showed above average iron content that might be indicative of excessive wear in an area like the cylinders, shafts, or valve train parts. Unless you're prepared to do things like pulling the cylinder head, or even the cylinders, you're going to have a hard time visually inspecting the areas that most likely are producing a high iron content. Even if you pulled the valve cover and inspected the camshafts, you might not be able to tell if, say, a camshaft was the source of the problem unless you were willing to remove the camshaft.

I might ask a mechanic what his opinion was of the high iron content, and what he would have to do in order to chase the issue down. Maybe it's an oil pressure issue, and oil isn't reaching the camshaft, or crankshaft, and that's a problem that could be fixed. I don't know how to test the oil pressure, but maybe someone here does. It wouldn't fix whatever damage was already done, but it could prevent more damage. Maybe it would be a lot more costly to chase it down, like engine disassembly, in which case you could make an informed decision about having it looked at, or else just run the thing til it blows up.

You could certainly pull the clutch and valve cover and take a look; that won't cost you anything except maybe a replacement gasket. But unless the problem is glaringly obvious, you may not be able to verify if the issue is in those areas. You might think all is well there, when it really isn't.

 

[parabomber]

I'm not sure what I'd do in your position. Blackstone's report showed above average iron content that might be indicative of excessive wear in an area like the cylinders, shafts, or valve train parts. Unless you're prepared to do things like pulling the cylinder head, or even the cylinders, you're going to have a hard time visually inspecting the areas that most likely are producing a high iron content. Even if you pulled the valve cover and inspected the camshafts, you might not be able to tell if, say, a camshaft was the source of the problem unless you were willing to remove the camshaft.

I might ask a mechanic what his opinion was of the high iron content, and what he would have to do in order to chase the issue down. Maybe it's an oil pressure issue, and oil isn't reaching the camshaft, or crankshaft, and that's a problem that could be fixed. I don't know how to test the oil pressure, but maybe someone here does. It wouldn't fix whatever damage was already done, but it could prevent more damage. Maybe it would be a lot more costly to chase it down, like engine disassembly, in which case you could make an informed decision about having it looked at, or else just run the thing til it blows up.

You could certainly pull the clutch and valve cover and take a look; that won't cost you anything except maybe a replacement gasket. But unless the problem is glaringly obvious, you may not be able to verify if the issue is in those areas. You might think all is well there, when it really isn't.

I really appreciate the thoughts, some good points to consider. I suppose compression test might indicate both lack of oil delivery to cylinders or worn cylinder walls. I could also drop the oil pan and see if the pickup is clogged.

I was hoping it would just blast me in the face when I open it up but you are right that it may not be apparent to visual inspection. I do have a borescope and could scope the cylinders but not sure what I'd be looking for other than very obvious damage.

Maybe I will call a couple mechanics and get their thoughts. I am really hoping to sort this out before the riding season begins.

Riding it till it blows up is a little worrying to me, as it could be dangerous or leave me stranded in the woods.

 

[Jlq1969]

Why does the metal found lead you to think only of the engine or the clutch?….and the transmission? Couldn't it come from some gear?….I think that if the engine didn't get oil to the upper part (camshaft ), rather than finding iron...you should find aluminum from the camshaft banks themselves (they do not have metal bearings)...

 

[RCinNC]

I'm not sure if you were asking me or Parabomber, Jlq, but my point was that it would be really difficult to visually inspect the potential source of the iron (including the transmission) without the sort of disassembly that a shadetree mechanic might not be comfortable with. I'm a fair home garage mechanic, but all of that is well outside my wheelhouse. It might very well be a problem in the transmission that caused the excessively high iron content, but the issue remains that it can't be confirmed without major disassembly. I don't know how you'd be able to answer what the source of the iron is was without either a disassemby of the engine (including the transmission) to visually inspect everything , or else subject the iron sample to testing with a gas chromatograph and compare it to known samples of the steel that makes up things like the transmission gears, shift forks, camshaft, crankshaft, etc. Oprion B isn't too likely.

I leaned towards oil starvation because, on a bike with 11,000 miles, it would be really weird for something on the engine to be wearing at that rate. If the OP bought it with 8000 miles on it, even if the original owner had never changed the oil at all, I can't imagine there'd be that sort of engine wear unless something wasn't working properly, especiially since this excessive iron issue appeared rather suddenly between the first and second oil analysis. Proper oil pressure is at least one thing that could be checked without handing your credit card to a mechanic at a shop and saying "go for it". Even if he did a compete engine teardown and found that it was a gear in transmission, or a camshaft journal, or what have you, they'd still have to figure out why it happened, or else it would happen again with all the new parts.