HARD START

[markjenn]

Re: Very hard starting today

If you use the kill switch when you shut the bike down, then it's much less likely you will ever encounter the hard starting issue.

What do you base this statement on?

- Mark

 

[EricV]

Re: Very hard starting today

What do you base this statement on?

- Mark

About 200k miles of Yamaha experience. I have had the hard starting issue on the FJR. It took me a couple of times to figure out what was happening. I outlined this earlier in this thread on my first post to it. I've had this happen on the S10 and recognized the conditions that created the hard starting.

Most people that have this issue have done one of two things. Started the bike and not let it warm fully up, then shut it down, which causes a flooded condition when the ECU defaults back into cold start mode again on the next starting attempt, often the following day,

OR they have been working on the bike or moving the bike around and turned the key on a few times, but had the kill switch on, which causes the fuel pump to pressurize the fuel rail multiple times w/o any attempts to start. If you use the kill switch, the fuel pump is off and any key on events won't pressurized the fuel system and it won't flood, thus no hard starting.

I would not be surprised if the after wash hard start is created by one of the two outlined scenarios above.

 

[Big Blu]

Re: Very hard starting today

I'm glad you're dealer is listening and willing to work with you on this. ::008::

.........
........ Some people are better than others about following those processes, (you, for example, do not follow the Yamaha process for starting and stopping the engine), and this sometimes has an impact on the desired effect occurring.

Now, lets talk about that "emergency off switch". Who told you that? There is NO SUCH ANIMAL ON ANY BIKE YOU EVER OWNED. All caps, because you and others need to understand that it's part of the normal shut down process, not an emergency kill switch. Not using it, creates problems because Yamaha assumes you'll read the manual and use the switch as they intended you to.
::024::

Use it, don't use it, but it's there for a reason and does a lot more than you apparently think it does.

I do always follow the recommended start procedure as defined on page 6-1of the owner manual. This SOP for all EFI motorcycles that I've owned.

Yep, it's not an "EMERGENCY OFF" switch, but it not a "KILL" s Switch" either (nobodys going to get hurt here!). Page 4=14 of the owners manual refers to it as the "ENGINE STOP" switch "to stop the engine in case of an emergenct....", sure sounds like an energency off switch to me! ::024::

WOT is old school and went out the door with carbs. The start procedure on page 6-1 says nothing about using the throttle when starting the bike. Today many EFI bike have an interlock to prevent the motor from starting at WOT. I tried WOT several times without success, so as a last ditch effort I went to 3/4 throttle being cautious not to go to WOT. Now you know!

Eric the next time you think I'm doing something wrong........ PLEASE don't hesitate to let know. :
In the mean time, you may want to read the owners manual. ::001::

Regards, Paul

 

[EricV]

Re: Very hard starting today

No worries. Throttle bodies don't do fuel, only air. Going to WOT is opening the throttle plates to the stop to add as much air to compensate for the flooded condition. Now maybe, just maybe, something in the ECU triggers some other reaction at WOT. I honestly don't know. I do know that WOT worked just fine for me when I had a hard start issue because I killed the engine on an incline while it was in cold start mode. I stalled it, it did not want to re-start w/o throttle as normal, I immediately went to WOT and cranked it and it started right up with a little bitching.

What I do know, is that I'll continue to use the "stop engine" switch to well, stop the engine.

 

[markjenn]

Re: Very hard starting today

OR they have been working on the bike or moving the bike around and turned the key on a few times, but had the kill switch on, which causes the fuel pump to pressurize the fuel rail multiple times w/o any attempts to start. If you use the kill switch, the fuel pump is off and any key on events won't pressurized the fuel system and it won't flood, thus no hard starting.

I agree that if you are doing maintenance on the bike and want to turn the electrics on without starting it, then doing so with the engine cutoff switch in the stop position is a good idea. But I don't think this can be extrapolated to say that using the cutoff switch rather than the ignition switch in normal day-to-day operation will solve (or even effect) the non-start problem.

And I will continue to point out that several of us have had the non-start issue without ANY of the factors mentioned in this thread... turning bike on/off multiple times, washing, etc.

- Mark

 

[EricV]

Re: Very hard starting today

And I will continue to point out that several of us have had the non-start issue without ANY of the factors mentioned in this thread... turning bike on/off multiple times, washing, etc.

Several? I recall only one, and that was suspect. There have been a couple of 'it sat for 3 weeks' and then had hard starting. That could be un-related to this.

The most common trigger for this event is starting the bike and not letting it fully warm up, then shutting it down. It might be a day or a week before you attempt to start the bike again. By that time many won't remember what they last did, in part because it didn't seem like anything abnormal.

Have you had this issue? (sorry, don't want to re-read the whole thread again), and if so, how many times?

 

[avc8130]

Re: Very hard starting today

No worries. Throttle bodies don't do fuel, only air. Going to WOT is opening the throttle plates to the stop to add as much air to compensate for the flooded condition. Now maybe, just maybe, something in the ECU triggers some other reaction at WOT. I honestly don't know. I do know that WOT worked just fine for me when I had a hard start issue because I killed the engine on an incline while it was in cold start mode. I stalled it, it did not want to re-start w/o throttle as normal, I immediately went to WOT and cranked it and it started right up with a little bitching.

What I do know, is that I'll continue to use the "stop engine" switch to well, stop the engine.

I'm not wading into the argument, I am just curious. With the "electronic" link in our throttle, is WOT on the throttle tube REALLY WOT on the throttle bodies during cranking?

ac

 

[markjenn]

Re: Very hard starting today

Have you had this issue? (sorry, don't want to re-read the whole thread again), and if so, how many times?

Now 3x. All without anything unusual whatsoever in how I last used the bike. I turned if off after a normal ride and a few days later turned it on and tried to start it. No joy. But now that I recognize the symptoms, I immediately go to WOT and it fires up fine.

- Mark

 

[markjenn]

Re: Very hard starting today

I'm not wading into the argument, I am just curious. With the "electronic" link in our throttle, is WOT on the throttle tube REALLY WOT on the throttle bodies during cranking?

I would assume so but don't really know.

- Mark

 

[EricV]

Re: Very hard starting today

Now 3x. All without anything unusual whatsoever in how I last used the bike. I turned if off after a normal ride and a few days later turned it on and tried to start it. No joy. But now that I recognize the symptoms, I immediately go to WOT and it fires up fine.

- Mark

Except that you don't use the engine shut off switch? If that's so, perhaps you'd like to do a test and start using it, then see if you still suffer a re-occurrence of the hard starting issue?

 

[Big Blu]

Re: Very hard starting today

I'd like to suggest that everyone who has had this problem report it to your dealer and ask them what they can do to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Explain to them that several others have reported having the problem and refer them to this thread. This will tell a lot about your dealers committment to the brand. If we create enough "DRAMA" perhaps Yamaha will step up to the plate and correct this problem.

I contacted my dealer yeaterday, he called me back a few minutes ago, after reading this thread, to get the exact mileage from my bike. He's now going to contact Yamaha. I encourage ALL that have had this problem to PILE ON and contact your dealer.


Regards, Paul

 

[Koinz]

Re: Very hard starting today

I'd like to suggest that everyone who has had this problem report it to your dealer and ask them what they can do to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Explain to them that several others have reported having the problem and refer them to this thread. This will tell a lot about your dealers committment to the brand. If we create enough "DRAMA" perhaps Yamaha will step up to the plate and correct this problem.

I contacted my dealer yeaterday, he called me back a few minutes ago, after reading this thread, to get the exact mileage from my bike. He's now going to contact Yamaha. I encourage ALL that have had this problem to PILE ON and contact your dealer.


Regards, Paul

Damn, That's great - tell him about the growl (harshness) accelerating through 3K RPM's. I would, but I haven't chosen a dealer I can trust. ???

 

[markjenn]

Re: Very hard starting today

Except that you don't use the engine shut off switch? If that's so, perhaps you'd like to do a test and start using it, then see if you still suffer a re-occurrence of the hard starting issue?

Given that this problem occurs randomly and very sporadically, might be a very long test.

There is no cogent technical rationale why a cutoff-switch shutdown would be any different than a ignition switch shutdown from the standpoint of the fuel and ignition systems. I know you keep beating the drum on this.... let's agree to disagree.

- Mark

 

[EricV]

Re: Very hard starting today

Given that this problem occurs randomly and very sporadically, might be a very long test.

There is no cogent technical rationale why a cutoff-switch shutdown would be any different than a ignition switch shutdown from the standpoint of the fuel and ignition systems. I know you keep beating the drum on this.... let's agree to disagree.

- Mark

Yes, we disagree. I disagree that it's random. I am surprised though. My method works. And you're unwilling to even try it. ???

 

[snakebitten]

Very hard starting today

Love this thread. It's been around a while.

We are coming up on having our bikes for a year. (those that took delivery the moment they arrived in the states)

I don't have the most miles of those on this board. But I do ride almost every single day. (no matter what country I am in. )

I have never had the hard start issue.
I DON'T obey the "engine shutoff" advice.
But this thread made me VERY wary of EVER turning the key on without starting the bike, AND letting it reach operating temperature before killing it.

I have not broken this rule even once!

My only complaint is that it doesn't ever seem like the battery is fully charged. LOL
In other words, that lumpy firing sequence always sounds like a weak start.

But she always fires!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Epping]

Re: Very hard starting today

No worries. Throttle bodies don't do fuel, only air. Going to WOT is opening the throttle plates to the stop to add as much air to compensate for the flooded condition.

Just wondering if this is really happening. Has any one seen the throttle bodies open with this condition. As they are fly by wire, maybe there is an interrupter. The reason I ask is because my friend (now ex-friend was showing off his new S10 (my recommendation) and called to say it won't start. I cranked it with WOT for about 3 minutes until almost flat battery. Finally started. I could smell fuel but really suspicious there was not full air going in because of the time it took to start.

 

[Koinz]

Re: Very hard starting today

Typically you can hear the difference in the sound of those big pistons drawing the air through the throttle bodies. Opened and closed make different sounds.

 

[RMac]

Re: Very hard starting today

This is bringing up a good point. When I had stripped the bike down to the point I was face to face with the butterflies I remember reacting to their response to throttle input. If I remember correctly there was a big delay in the butterflies opening in relation to throttle demand. Damn, I should have paid more attention, but I was so frustrated by the lack of S10 cooperation at the tme, not to mention the keeping my head away from the occasional flames coming out of the spark plug sockets from the pulled 2nd plugs at each side. Shame on you Yamaha.

 

[Rasher]

Re: Very hard starting today

If the clutch in bypasses the dampening effect perhaps this would help with using WOT when cranking - i.e. pull in the clutch?

 

[cbrunsw]

Re: Very hard starting today

Is this happening to people in humid locations or in wet conditions? Also when the key is turned on the fuel pump has to pressurize the injector line up to 47psi. Are people trying to start the engine before the fuel pressure is up when the key is first turned on?