For Safety's Sake.....

[Dallara]

I have to say that seems extraordinarily obvious. The rider clearly exceeded the lean limitations of the bike which were reduced due to accessories installed on the bike.

That said, I suspect I would have been equally ignorant to the new limitations of the bike if I had the same situation. If I crashed due to being ignorant of the bike's limitations that would be my mistake. Thankfully Mike shared his mistake with others so people with a similar setup will be less ignorant of the risks. More people are safer today because of this unfortunate incident, and happily the rider was not seriously hurt.

I have to admit I'm baffled why it is so impossible for some on this thread to accept that a good, maybe even a great rider made a mistake. Just about every champion racer has made a mistake that cost them dearly. These high level riders all freely admit they made a mistake. Lesser skilled riders point to them and say, they made a mistake. It doesn't take anything away from champion level rider. And it doesn't make the lesser skilled rider bad for pointing out they screwed up, and maybe learning something from it.

The attempted intimidation of trying to stop people from discussing mistakes because the one who made a mistake is beyond reproach is really disturbing and should not be accommodated. Pretending the rider has no blame and refusing to learn from this experience is folly

And I have to admit I'm a bit baffled you don't "get it", Dirt Dad, as to why some folks, like myself, have posted in this thread.

I know he made a mistake. Mikef5000 knows he made a mistake... So much so he describes quite frankly what he thinks his mistakes were in this incident. And no one, least of all myself, would want anyone to refrain from the discussion of safer riding techniques and trying to avoid similar mistakes in the future. No one is "beyond reproach"...

But therein lies the rub...

What's really "disturbing and should not be accommodated" to me is folks who jump in and start saying they *KNOW* - beyond the shadow of a doubt - what the rider did wrong, or what mistake he made, without them having so much as a yocto-inkling as to what *ACTUALLY* happened, much less anything about the rider or the conditions. That is well and truly "folly". What's even worse is that so many of those armchair-quarterbacking *experts* felt they, themselves, were "beyond reproach" despite the fact that some of their analysis was so blatantly *WRONG* after the details of the incident came out from the rider himself. Sure, some made the apparently accurate assessment that perhaps the RumBux skid plate played a part in the mishap, but that only came out after the rider himself detailed that to the rest of us.

Those others... Ones who emphatically stated from the get-go that Mikef5000 so obviously got into the corner "too hot"... or that he so obviously chopped the throttle mid-corner (which he says he didn't)... or that his line into the corner was "all wrong"... All those folks made completely *ERRONEOUS* assumptions and allegations, and even after the rider categorically refuted such fiction they continued to state that their own conclusions were the right ones. And one is still suggesting such things simply because he's been to a certain riding school, yet he has not as of yet actually explained how his attending that school demonstrates Mike's cornering line was "all wrong"...

That's what's really "disturbing" and very much total "folly". And even more so because they are all basing this on nothing more than a few relatively low-resolution pictures with digital watermarks all over them. Such bogus analysis is what really shouldn't be "accommodated" by any of us.

Dallara





p.s. - it should also be noted that there are a lot of the erroneous *forensic* posts in another thread about this incident... and that upon looking back through this thread it appears some of the folks who initially posted some of those questionable assessments have quietly deleted their posts! Wonder why?

~

 

[Dirt_Dad]

As far as I know Checkswrecks is one of the few career professional accident investigators here. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is when investigating an accident they discuss all possibilities until facts rule them out. I'm guessing they don't try to make their fellow investigators feel stupid for offering an opinion which latter turns out to be wrong. Just a hunch.

 

[autoteach]

this is good stuff here. ::017::

 

[Dallara]

As far as I know Checkswrecks is one of the few career professional accident investigators here. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is when investigating an accident they discuss all possibilities until facts rule them out. I'm guessing they don't try to make their fellow investigators feel stupid for offering an opinion which latter turns out to be wrong. Just a hunch.

I've got a hunch, too...

That if any of those "fellow investigators" offering their opinions found out later they were wrong they'd gladly admit it, and maybe even apologize for jumping the gun. Of course, I doubt any credible professional would make entirely erroneous allegations before they ever even examined the facts.

But again, that's just a hunch...

Dallara



~

 

[autoteach]

As a casual observer : I would like to see some responses to a question that I have...
Are the pictures unable to show the details of bike attitude, rider position, and then the cause of the accident?

 

[Dallara]

As a casual observer : I would like to see some responses to a question that I have...
Are the pictures unable to show the details of bike attitude, rider position, and then the cause of the accident?

Pretty much... Not accurately or in sufficient detail for some of the conclusions offered, anyway.

Dallara



~

 

[EricV]

Don't know if this violates any forum rules, but it's an eye opener and should generate some discussion. There is some info from the rider over on ADVrider. He says he was not seriously injured. I won't repeat his posts...he should do that if he so chooses. My question is: Can someone identify the skid plate and bars?

http://xtremesportsphotography.photoreflect.com/store/ThumbPage.aspx?e=8917924&g=0QAK01CZ08

It is a Rumbux 3-Part kit. (I'm the importer and sold it to him) The rider admits that if the Rumbux wasn't there, he may not have had the crash, or the discussion would have been about his panniers hitting and resulting in the same crash. It's a good discussion on ADV. Bottom line, we need to be aware that the changes we make to our bikes can have disastrous consequences. It was pointed out in the other thread that other skid plates have been reported to hit and jack the rear tire off the ground as well.

The Super Ten is not a sport bike, nor was it intended to be by Yamaha. At some point, every bike starts dragging hard parts. Because of this and another similar incident I have been made aware of thanks to the ADV thread, I am now including a liability warning with Rumbux shipments to be aware of this hazard.

FWIW, the bike went down the slope 200' and only had some bent crash bars and a bit of radiator damage. Fairly impressive protection for a low, then high side crash, followed by a tumble 200' down the slope into the woods. I'm very grateful that the rider is ok. For those that don't know, Mike5000 is a very good rider with a significant amount of riding experience.

As Dallera more eloquently stated, we can't make judgements on the rider, we were not there. But that tendency exists on the internet to make bold statements w/o much, if any, real data. ::019::

I find it admirable that the crashee made the post about his crash. Information is a good thing. We all get to filter that and decide how to apply what we take from these things to our own riding and choices. After all, what happens to us, good and bad, is a direct result of our choices and actions.

 

[snakebitten]

On a lighter side, I now have some cover for having chicken stripes on my K60's. :
I can point out to the squids it is the price I have to pay to have my Rumbux off-road bash protection.

 

[autoteach]

grinder with http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200309273_200309273?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Abrasives-_-Grinding%20Wheels-_-1555851&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=1555851&gclid=CIKk88_KhbcCFRTMtAodLVcAFA

chicken strips gone

 

[snakebitten]

grinder with http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200309273_200309273?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Abrasives-_-Grinding%20Wheels-_-1555851&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=1555851&gclid=CIKk88_KhbcCFRTMtAodLVcAFA

chicken strips gone

That's funny autoteach.

But I couldn't do it. I gotta earn it.
Besides, I've got some very nicely rippled to the edge tires on my VTR. Give me leathers, Ohlins, and tons of fall-down safely room on a 1 way street (track) and this old man ain't near as chicken.

Even off road I have more willingness to visit the ER.

On the street? I don't know. I've tamed the hooligan gene. My brother will tell you that's a big fat lie. (But he drives his V-Strom like I drive an F350. What's the hurry, if you know what I mean) But I really have slowed down. I blame the Tenere actually. I just behave differently on it. Different mission.

And to get back on topic, it appears I SHOULD pull it down a notch running panniers and Rumbux bash bars.

 

[troll]

some of you guys should ride my lowered SupaT, it drags the pegs just looking at a corner. I don't need big honkin metal boxes or the nice Rumbux plate to make contact. ::26:: ::26:: sport bike it ain't. This tread is a hoot, particularly when Dallara gets all wound up. ::017::

Dirt Dad I think in line with you.

 

[True Grip]

Hmmm those watermarks are muddy things up for me. I'm beginning to think there is a conspiracy here. I think Yamaha is trying to slow down the use of aftermarket skidplates. Sales of the production model have plummeted. I'm thinking Yamaha and the TN DOT are in cahoots. I think Mike5000 is an unfortunate victim here wrong place, wrong time. It could have been anyone of us (except you slower guys ;D ). Has anyone checked the profile of the camera man? What do we really know about him? He is not a member here maybe he is on My Space or Facebook. Listen if the cameraman disappears and is never seen again then i'm going to the grave thinking Mama Yamaha is one mean _itch!

My attempt at humor. Good part is as stated in very first post is Mike is ok and Mike is a really good guy for sharing important information. Mike and i have lots in common we are both pretty good tumblers This post was not intended to offend anyone!

 

[Siseneg]

Hmmm ... Listen if the cameraman disappears and is never seen again then i'm going to the grave thinking Mama Yamaha is one mean _itch!

My attempt at humor. Good part is as stated in very first post is Mike is ok and Mike is a really good guy for sharing important information. Mike and i have lots in common we are both pretty good tumblers This post was not intended to offend anyone!

I would be very wary of any strange vans showing up in your neighborhood. ::019::

 

[snakebitten]

Might be a Texas prejudice, but I don't think so........
I get Dallara. I get WFOPete. I get RonH. (not that they are anything alike)

It's a richer forum with them.

I'll say this about men like Dallara: They do their best work in Foxholes. They don't run. And if they have your back, they will defend you to the end.

Having said that, he can be 80grit. So you might need a few layers.

 

[Karson]

I agree snake - I also think it's unfair to judge a person by this single-method of communication/forum alone. Pete's a cool dude when I met him in AR last fall, wished I could've ridden with him...knowing what I gathered by a simple handshake and a exchange of names puts his posts/viewpoint into a different light.

As with all of us, sometimes we get to be apart of a great value-added conversation. Other times we witness the complete opposite.

Being stubborn can be a good thing. Being stubborn can be a bad thing. It just depends on how you use it.

 

[troll]

Might be a Texas prejudice, but I don't think so........
I get Dallara. I get WFOPete. I get RonH. (not that they are anything alike)

It's a richer forum with them.

I'll say this about men like Dallara: They do their best work in Foxholes. They don't run. And if they have your back, they will defend you to the end.

Having said that, he can be 80grit. So you might need a few layers.

Could not agree with you more snake. I enjoy the stimulation and perspective of the three fellows you note and the richness they provide. The world is made up of a lot of interesting individuals, each with something to offer.

 

[creggur]

Everybody on this forum would get along a lot better if we just agreed up-front that Dallara is never wrong. Of course the threads would be much shorter, but everything in life is give-and-take...

 

[Mikef5000]

I'm Here!

Alright, jeesh, I'm here! Sorry for the delay, I've been a member for some time, but am more of a lurker here. I was clued in to this thread by a buddy, and figured I'd chime in.

I had a ton of responses, but as I've just read 7 pages of stuff, I only remember a few.

First off, you all keep talking about the 'other forum' or 'other thread'; some one want to clue me in on that one? Unless it's one I've already been replying too.

Anyway... The whole ride report and crash is detailed here: http://www.mikef5000.com/2013-ride-and-crash.html.

Now, to answer specific questions I saw over the past many pages... as objectively as possible...

My body position was perfectly upright, which I consider 'normal' for this type of bike. I feel a little silly hanging off like a racer, considering the size/nature of this beast. Hindsight; it may have helped... it may not have... who knows... probably should have tried eh?!

While the bike was loaded, it was far from over loaded, I'm under 150 pounds fully geared up, the majority of the luggage you see there is a sleeping bag, pad, and tent (lightweight stuff); there was maybe 50 pounds of luggage (80% of the weight was low in the side boxes). Add the Rumbux and panniers/racks, and I'm still only in the neighborhood of 225 pounds. That's reasonable for this big a bike I think. Even so, I knew going out on this ride I had it loaded, so I maxed out the rear preload, and cranked the front to about halfway between my normal setting, and the max. The bike was planted, and handling very well!

Speaking of planted, someone mentioned the mis-matched tires. The front K60 was about half done (just pulled the old rear K60 before this trip), but I didn't want to spend the money on a new rear K60, so I went with the cheaper Shinko. I figured, when that wore out in 4-5k miles, I could justify replacing both front and rear (heh... boy was I wrong!) The front was about 50%, the rear was 90%. Pressures were around 40 psi in each. They were handling marvelously! Sounds funny to say, considering the ending... but really, no complaints about the tires; they were sticking fine, and I quickly got in the zone in those twisties.

Twisties... I've driven and ridden that road dozens of times. I've got some killer in car video from a previous highly built car, as well as racer-boy knee dragging KillBoy shots from previous bikes. This time I simply pushed this bike further than it could go. Actually yeah... I simply pushed this bike further than it could go. That about sums this entire thing up pretty damn well if I do say so myself!

I feel bad that the Rumbux distributor has to include a liability statement now because of this thing. I do think, in this particular case, the skid plate was the first hard part that touched, but I was riding pretty hard... it's kind of what I do... and as stated, if I didn't have the Rumbux, it could have been another skid plate that contacted, or the panniers, or the center stand... who knows... but what we do know is this: the Tenere has limited lean angle; the pegs drag fairly early (well, it's all relative to what you're used to I suppose) and hard parts will drag shortly thereafter. I know I frequently dragged pegs near my house; there's a beautiful S-curve turning onto my street. Had I known how close I was to hard parts and a low side, I potentially would have changed my riding style. Sure wish I learned this lesson there, rather than on a mountain!

But also, I'm not a fan of changing my riding style. I like to push things fairly hard. And when my own personal limits are set pretty dang high, and I decide to go push things, once in a very long while, it doesn't end well. This one ended pretty horrifically for the bike. First time for everything I guess.

That's all I've got for now. I'll keep an eye on this thread though, so if you've got any other questions go ahead and fire away. The above link to the ride report has tons of information and pictures though, so be sure to check that out if you'd like.

 

[snakebitten]

Mike, glad you could make it. You're FAMOUS around these parts now!

Pretty sure "the other thread" is the other forum, actually.

Anyways, it's been a great thread without you. Really. Thought provoking, to say the least.
It can only get better though now with the answers being straight from the horses mouth.

As many have already told you, including myself, it's really good that you were not hurt.
And it sucks the bike is toast, but it sounds like you are going to fair well there as well.

And finally, your forthright approach has been refreshing. (I've read your blog)

Cheers
From a now more aware Rumbux rider.

 

[troll]

Mike, glad you are OK, that looked pretty bad from the still photos. amazing that you didn't get bruised at all. Thanks for sharing with all of us. You guys that ride a lot just make me envious. ::008::